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I think it's quite simple. If the transport had units in it earlier in the turn then it can't take new units into it. If it had units get into it earlier in the turn then they can't get out in the same turn. It's that simple.

Azuza001 wrote:
I think it's quite simple. If the transport had units in it earlier in the turn then it can't take new units into it. If it had units get into it earlier in the turn then they can't get out in the same turn. It's that simple.

But that opens up a can of worms.

Lets say by some interpretation we have 2 Banshees in a Wave Serpent. They jump out. The serpent moves 20+ across the table and now want the Dire Avengers to jump in. That would work. You say no.

So lets retool this scenario to your interpretation:
The wave serpent with a loaded warlock starts next to 2 banshees . Banshees Embark ( I assume you think that is legal)....now the serpent moves across the table next to 9 Dire Avengers and ends in legal range and they wish to Embark.

Do you permit this with your interpretation? I assume you say yes. (If NO then where is the rules to prevent). So now you have an 'in' door open at both ends of this movement phase....but your rational is that there are no out doors on the same turn. Primitive design these transports are. It just seems silly.

To make it even more silly....after the Banshees embarked and the serpent moved...your saying the warlock could not get out...but 9 dire avengers could embark? Is the Warlock too pretty and needs a stool and red carpet laid out so that he can get out and there is no time for that....so the 9 Avengers just cram the door and get inside?

Now you say its not a rational, its a game mechanic it is what it is....right or wrong. So you have a RAW (which to this point CAN BE READ to ONLY prohibit a Embarking andthen Disembarking. No where does it say you cannot Disembark first and then not be permitted to embark...if you want to get down to the rules lawyering as it is written.

I think the RAI was to reinforce the idea of the game mechanic that NO unit can jump in ride for a bit and then jump out....since you have to jump out prior to the transport moving.

Either way it should be clarified in a new FAQ

Maybe take this discussion over to YMDC?

 Shadenuat wrote:
Outdated FAQ though, judging by soulburst questions which became irrelevant with Ynnari change (like charging in enemy turn with soulburst).

Its still listed on their FAQ page.

If it was outdated, it would either be removed, replaced, or a have a more recent question about the subject answered in a newer FAQ.

None of those things are true when it comes to that question and answer.

Like it or not, its the most current version of what we have.

Going back to the genestealer rush situation, I don't have the nid codex but how would they fare vs a T8 wraithlord? Is their strength above 4? A 103pts bare bones lord might be a way to plug that gap after the screen if they are S4, even with super rend or whatever the heck they get for special rules. Assuming S4 (this is moot if they are higher S though), it would take a lot of hits to bring down the Lord. He then falls back and lets your guns do the rest. maybe even equip him with a pair of flamers (bumps his points and makes him less expendable) but will remove a few stealers on the way in.

Again, this is going with little knowledge of the nid dex, so bare that in mind.

I don't think that would work too well. A Wraithlord survives okay in CC vs Genestealers -- they only expect to do about 38% of their cost in damage to one, which is pretty bad relative to how they do against everything else -- but there are two big problems with it.

First, with a Swarmlord, Genestealers can really move. You need bubble wrap to stop them, not one big model. They can just go around the Wraithlord.

Second, they're going to be able to surround the Wraithlord and stop it from falling back. If a big squad of Stealers charges a Wraithlord, they expect to almost kill it in one turn, then they can surround it and finish it off in your turn, leaving them free to do whatever they want without having taken any fire.

 bullyboy wrote:
Going back to the genestealer rush situation, I don't have the nid codex but how would they fare vs a T8 wraithlord? Is their strength above 4? A 103pts bare bones lord might be a way to plug that gap after the screen if they are S4, even with super rend or whatever the heck they get for special rules. Assuming S4 (this is moot if they are higher S though), it would take a lot of hits to bring down the Lord. He then falls back and lets your guns do the rest. maybe even equip him with a pair of flamers (bumps his points and makes him less expendable) but will remove a few stealers on the way in.

Again, this is going with little knowledge of the nid dex, so bare that in mind.

I can give some insight here. My buddy plays Genestealer Swarmlord nids, and I've been workshopping ways to counter them with a Wraith list for awhile. (We've played 3 games so far, since the Codex dropped.)

Dionysodorus is correct in that a Wraithlord will get surrounded & tar pitted- but since the T8 and +1 A buff, they've actually become way more resilient to it. T8 means they can survive the charge now, and if you're keeping a Spiritseer nearby, your Wraithlords are now hitting on 3s (rerolling 1s, or all if you're Iyanden with the stratagem) and wounding on 2's (If you've taken the sword). They force a respectable number of casualties each fight phase now, and that 4th attack is huge.

Running Iyanden, I was able to use 2x Wraithlords to stall out a Genestealer rush. He ended up encircling one, but wasn't able to kill them (post T8 buff). By the end of T2 his Genestealer blob was dropped to 4-5 models and pretty much a nonfactor, with both Wraithlords still standing and useful thanks to the Iyanden trait. They survived with 3W & 8W respectively, which was a huge improvement thanks to the T8. (Previously at least one would always get completely eaten up on the charge.)

The key takeaway for me in that match was the the swords, though. Wounding on 2+ vs. 3+ on Genestealers made all the difference. If you don't take the swords, then plan to have some kind of back-up to keep the Wraithlords from getting encircled, or a melee-capable unit nearby to dig them back out.

Weirdly though, I've found Flamers on Wraithlords are a trap, and pretty bad against nid swarms. There are so many pile-in / charge range shenanigans now, that a skilled opponent will always find a way to avoid the overwatch. (A big blob of Tyranids can daisy-chain a huge line, move 1" away from 3 units, declare the charge against something with no overwatch, then pile-in to everything else. When the goal is to tar-pit the Wraithlords, it's devastatingly effective, and makes your flamers a waste of points.)

My favorite TAC build post-buff has been 2x Cannons + Sword while keeping the catapults.

Guys and Gals, big news! Tyranid FAQ has dropped (plus a pointless update to the Grey Knights one).

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/warhammer_40000_tyranids_en.pdf

Major point to note, as a result of our discussion here is on page 2.

Q: If I use the Metabolic Overdrive Stratagem on a unit in the
Movement phase, and then Onslaught on the same unit in the
Psychic phase, can that unit charge?
A: No.

Q: Can a unit ever Advance twice in a single phase?
A: No.
Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the
opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their
Move characteristic?
A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would
still be the value as modified from the Advance.
For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5"
Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the
dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic
would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was
given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its
Move characteristic would still be 9".

Q: Can the Opportunistic Advance Stratagem be used when a
unit is affected by the Swarmlord’s Hive Commander ability, the
Overrun Stratagem, or the Mind Eater Warlord Trait?
A: Yes in all cases. Please note the FAQ above regarding
moving multiple times in a single phase.

So, basically, we can all relax now, cos that one unit that is moving 40+"'s can no longer charge as well.

I mean, stealers still have that nasty 41" potential charge range with the Swarmlord about, so you can't just rest on your laurels.

 Fafnir wrote:
I mean, stealers still have that nasty 41" potential charge range with the Swarmlord about, so you can't just rest on your laurels.

With the Kraken advance roll of a 6, Kraken stratagem and the Swarmlord, i guess they can still move 40" + the charge range, but, would you rather use the Swarmlord ability on the Swarmlord instead? If that's the case, the Stealers are going 20" max - something which you can easily plan around.

Well, that's entirely dependant on the situation. Either way, if you see the 'stealers and Swarmy in the same list, you should at least prepare for the possibility.

Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.

Kdash wrote:

Q: If a unit has Advanced in a phase, and is given the
opportunity to move again in the same phase, what is their
Move characteristic?
A: Their Move characteristic for the second move would
still be the value as modified from the Advance.
For example, if a unit with a Move characteristic of 5"
Advances in a Movement phase, and the result of the
dice rolled for the Advance is 4, its Move characteristic
would be modified for that phase to 9". As such, if it was
given the opportunity to move again in that phase, its
Move characteristic would still be 9".

"same phase".

Bharring wrote:
"same phase".

I see, sorry!

Kdash wrote:


With the Kraken advance roll of a 6, Kraken stratagem and the Swarmlord, i guess they can still move 40" + the charge range, but, would you rather use the Swarmlord ability on the Swarmlord instead? If that's the case, the Stealers are going 20" max - something which you can easily plan around.

You are probably better off sending in the stealers first and the swarmlord after. The stealers will do more damage than the swarmlord and will keep the swarmlord alive longer.

xmbk wrote:
Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.

Not sure what the combo is here myself.

Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.

They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.

Just checking my stratagems again:

With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?

It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.

 Puganaut wrote:
Just checking my stratagems again:

With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?

It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.

Yes, and with Protect any weapon platforms in the unit will have a 2+ save as well, so worth considering using them for tanking anything that only does 1 wound and has no save modifier.

Kdash wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.

Not sure what the combo is here myself.

Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.

They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.

They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.

xmbk wrote:

Kdash wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Don't relax yet, Overrun/Adrenaline Surge combo did not get addressed. It's certainly legal by RAW.

Not sure what the combo is here myself.

Overrun does not allow the unit to move -within- 1” of your units, as such, any unit then targeted with adrenaline rush to attack again, won’t be able to, as they are not within 1” of an enemy unit and thus can’t fight. They won’t even be able to pile in or consolidate, due to them not being in a position to activate at the start of the phase.

They also wouldn't be able to attack another unit anyway, unless they declared a charge against it/the first unit somehow remained alive.

They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.

I thought you can’t select a unit to activate if the unit is not within 1” of an enemy unit at the time of its activation.

Overrun explicitly keeps you outside of 1” of the enemy unit, so, even if you use the stratagem, the unit can’t activate as it isn’t within 1” of its target at the start of the new fight phase.

The core rules say

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.

The stratagem allows you to choose a unit that has already fought, but, if it doesn’t meet the initial criteria for fighting, it can’t be selected to fight again. This is because you essentially go back to “step 1” of the “fight sequence” – “Choose a unit to fight with”.

Pile in moves are the first step of combat after an eligible unit is selected to fight. You can’t use it instead put yourself in a position to be eligible to fight.

I still hold that PROPERLY placed Rangers and Hemlocks can guarantee that no Nid unit can get to the rest of you army.
They only exception would be if the Nids used units with Fly (Gargoyles, Tyrants) and/or used Psychic powers to "clear" the Rangers, THEN moved those 'Stealers/Hormaguant through
Even if they do clear the Rangers in the Psychic Phase, those Stealers/Hormagaunts had to be 9" away from where they were during the Move phase. Even with another movement granted by a Power, if the rest of the Eldar is 12" from where the Rangers were, then charging SHOULD be impossible on the first turn

Surely it's possible if the Eldar deploy incorrectly, but I'd hardly call it a reliable tactic to count on your opponent to make the mistake. At least not twice and if they do, you aren't playing on the same level and any victories will be shallow ones.

-

^^^ This I completely agree with. Besides, if things are really going to go badly, you can have up to 18.5” of space between the Ranger units and whatever you want behind them. So, even if the Rangers die to shooting or psychic, there is still a 27.5” gap the unit needs to make up. Even with a 14” move due to Hive Commander, ‘stealers still won’t be able to make the charge.

 Puganaut wrote:
Just checking my stratagems again:

With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?

It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.

Why would anyone shoot at that instead of all your non-protected things?

xmbk wrote:


They do declare the charge. They declare a charge on 2 units, wipe out the first and use Overrun/Adrenaline Surge to catapult into another unit. Pile In allows them to move within 1". Hormagaunts can move roughly 20" past the first unit using this.

You can't declare a charge on a unit more than 12" away, and you can't attack what you haven't declared a charge against. This is what makes a screen unit so effective.

But the Adrenaline Surge stratagem allows you to select them to fight again. Since they already fought (when wiping out the first unit), they meet the criteria.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 Puganaut wrote:
Just checking my stratagems again:

With celestial shield and protect, can a guardian unit get a 3++ for an enemy shooting phase?

It's a lot of baby sitting, but fortune, protect and shield gives a 3++ with a 5+ FNP. That seems like a very tanky 20 man unit, at least for the enemy shooting phase. It's expensive, but that seems like a pretty insane screen, at least for denying alpha strikes.

Why would anyone shoot at that instead of all your non-protected things?

Because 20 fast moving guardians in your face poses a huge threat. Possibly bigger than the fire base sitting at the back of the table. Plus a lot of their weapons may not be able to hit anything else effectively if you drop your guardians in within 12'' of the enemy

If you've cast Fortune and Protect on them, there is definitely more stuff that will be shootable.

Most non-Eldar armies can shoot more than 12".

I was trying to find a good use for guardian storm squads. I love to find a good use for them. Since i have about 20 of them and like the models. I thought maybe using 8 man squads with 2 flamers can be useful for assault screeners. I don't know how effective it would be. They would be wiped out by any decent close combat unit but they would slow them down and inflict some casualties their flamers and maybe some in close combat.

 clodax66 wrote:
I was trying to find a good use for guardian storm squads. I love to find a good use for them. Since i have about 20 of them and like the models. I thought maybe using 8 man squads with 2 flamers can be useful for assault screeners. I don't know how effective it would be. They would be wiped out by any decent close combat unit but they would slow them down and inflict some casualties their flamers and maybe some in close combat.

The only true and reliable use of them is to counter hth units in your gunline....screen them with Dire Avengers. The Dire Avengers may die but at least they get better overwatch shots. If the enemy did this and consolidated into the Storm Guardians or the target unit is within close range....(Advance or Quicken with Charge helps here) You have a chance to get some good use.

Take at least 15 or more. They MUST be Ulthwe. Take ONLY chainswords. Cast Enhance (possibly with Seer Council).
Use 1 CP to make them Black Guardian Strategem...use a 2nd CP to use the Disdain Strategem.
To make things way better cast DOOM on the target unit and keep an autarch handy. (these are all things in most elder lists anyways)

So now you have spent 105+ points and combined some characters for buffing to get what?

With the re rolls and then the dice proc themselves on a 4+ and hitting on 2+. 15 storm guardians will do this:

You should net only 2 misses and a total of 43 hits. With Doom you should net 32.25 T3 wounds, 24 T4/T5 wounds and 13 T6+ wounds
That should take care of a lot of units that hit your gunline. Unless they have 2+ saves most units are going to get wrecked.

Remember they have 15 pistol shots to go with this as well.