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 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.


Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.

1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.

You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.

That's actually pretty significant.


Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.

Mind. Blown.

I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!

I agree. The wording of it all, implies you spend the CP on the power on a successful cast, so, you’d only activate it after the deny attempt has taken place.

In my view, this only really saves you a command point if you fail to cast the power to start with, as a lot of the time you’ll potentially be outside of deny range anyway.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:


EDIT: Also, at 240pts total that's a nice combo of HQ's to unlock a battalion and two 1 CP detachments for an 8 CP list. If you've got 10pts spare it's probably worth upgrading the Warlock to another Spiritseer.

Korlandril wrote:

2) Bike warlocks and farseers are obviously good for their added movement but both are costly when warlocks are good for being cheap HQs, though you would want a Spiritseer over a foot warlock because they are so much better for 10pts extra

Maybe but with smite nerfs i think it's onyl really worth throwing out one smite a turn, and i'd probably do it with a farseer if at all (maybe???). Other than that i got other things i'd rather spend the 10 points on i just want my ruins of battle. I think if you are bringing a warlock for quicken it should definitly be a spirit seer as they only ever cast quicken once, that or make it a 2 man council but i just don't think they are worth it at all.

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah, a Conclave has to start the game in a Wave serpent to stand a chance. Although I find this is true for all my psykers- in 8th, if a unit starts on the board, it can die before you get a turn. A two man conclave can get in a Serpent with another 10 man unit. Eldar Psykers can usually move ~14" out of a Serpent before casting, which, combined with the decent range on their powers, means you can buff/debuff whatever you need to. I have not yet felt the need to pay for a bike on anyone.

I don't know how this happens my whole army usually has to die before any my characters can be targeted out is what i've found. Heck even the fliers in your list if you know how to deploy and position will block the ability of enemy units from shooting your characters at all. The conclave in a serpent i only have to kill 1 serpent and then the conclave inside is a easy target that dies to a a limb breeze.

I so like the flexibility of a conclaive and i don't hate the idea of a one time use 4 man conclave who suicide cast 2 power with +1 and 36" range so they have get key powers off outside of deny range, and then just die. I think a cost effective analyse should be done on A funn squad of shining spears alone vs buffed with empower+enhance (factoring in the cost of the 4 man conclaive). If the cost effectiveness is close to the normal shining spear unit cost effectiveness that might be worth doing.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kdash wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.


Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.

1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.

You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.

That's actually pretty significant.


Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.

Mind. Blown.

I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!

I agree. The wording of it all, implies you spend the CP on the power on a successful cast, so, you’d only activate it after the deny attempt has taken place.

In my view, this only really saves you a command point if you fail to cast the power to start with, as a lot of the time you’ll potentially be outside of deny range anyway.

yeah to me the whole point of 36" range spells is to cast them out side of deny range or atleast outside the range of some one like magnus.

I don't know how this happens my whole army usually has to die before any my characters can be targeted out is what i've found. Heck even the fliers in your list if you know how to deploy and position will block the ability of enemy units from shooting your characters at all. The conclave in a serpent i only have to kill 1 serpent and then the conclave inside is a easy target that dies to a a limb breeze.

Characters in Serpents are certainly a lot easier to keep alive than a Conclave no doubt. But the general point about anything you deploy possibly dying turn one is just something I've learnt from experience. For example I was quite surprised at one event when I played against a guard/marine list with loads of lascannons and six units of snipers. My Farseer in a wave serpent with a unit did not survive the first turn. There also always seems to be some new combo coming out with units Deep Striking in, moving six times, charging a unit, killing it, consolidating into a new unit and killing that too lol.

yeah to me the whole point of 36" range spells is to cast them out side of deny range or atleast outside the range of some one like magnus.

Agreed, I just thought I'd mention it for completeness.


I'm going to make a thread in General about that psychic power timing as it's seems worthy of a public service announcement.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.


Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.

1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.

You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.

That's actually pretty significant.


Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.

Mind. Blown.

I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!

Posting this here for completeness sake because I do not think this is correct.

I do not agree. All psychic powers say 'if manifested choose...' (referencing the CSM, Eldar and Tyranid books I have immediately at hand) and per page 178 of the main rule book under section 2 it says

"If the total is equal to or greater than the power's warp charge value the power is successfully manifested.

Emphasis my own. However we can see the power is manifested before the deny step (which is step 3 of the sequence).

 Farseer_V2 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Moosatronic Warrior wrote:
Yeah it's a bit weird. I just tell my opponent that I'm doing a 36" range Jinx at whatever the target is, but that I only have to spend the command point if the power goes off.


Edit: Ok so looking at this has made me realise that I (and everyone else I've ever played with) have been missing a trick with Psy powers.

1) You roll the Psy test
2) If successful your opponent can try and deny it.
3) If they fail to deny it you resolve the power.

You don't pick the target till step 3 which means that your opponent does not know the target when they have to decide whether or not to Deny the Witch.

That's actually pretty significant.


Edit 2: It also means that you don't have to spend the command point for CoP if you get denied.

Mind. Blown.

I never noticed that and am really glad you brought it up!

Posting this here for completeness sake because I do not think this is correct.

I do not agree. All psychic powers say 'if manifested choose...' (referencing the CSM, Eldar and Tyranid books I have immediately at hand) and per page 178 of the main rule book under section 2 it says

"If the total is equal to or greater than the power's warp charge value the power is successfully manifested.

Emphasis my own. However we can see the power is manifested before the deny step (which is step 3 of the sequence).

Manifested, yes. Resolved, no. You follow the wording on the Psychic Power on resolution, meaning you pick targets at that step because it says to follow the wording on the power.

That is incorrect - psychic powers all tell us to choose a target when manifested, not resolved. The rule book uses very specific language in this case. A psychic power is manifested before deny the witch and resolved after. Each power tells you to select a target once manifested.

I don't intend to sound rude or pedantic but I don't see this as arguable. The rule book uses a specific word and that word coincides with target selection in the psychic power. In no form is a power required to be resolved before it is manifested.

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - psychic powers all tell us to choose a target when manifested, not resolved. The rule book uses very specific language in this case. A psychic power is manifested before deny the witch and resolved after. Each power tells you to select a target once manifested.

I don't intend to sound rude or pedantic but I don't see this as arguable. The rule book uses a specific word and that word coincides with target selection in the psychic power. In no form is a power required to be resolved before it is manifested.

Don't fret. You aren't being Pedantic. You are right, it seems. The phrase "if manifested" does appear on pretty much every power. My bad for not checking more carefully.

mmimzie wrote:

Maybe but with smite nerfs i think it's onyl really worth throwing out one smite a turn, and i'd probably do it with a farseer if at all (maybe???). Other than that i got other things i'd rather spend the 10 points on i just want my ruins of battle. I think if you are bringing a warlock for quicken it should definitly be a spirit seer as they only ever cast quicken once, that or make it a 2 man council but i just don't think they are worth it at all.

What smite nerf?

I assume he is referencing the 'beta rules' posted on the Warhammer Community page. Effectively each cast of smite is reduced by 1 for each previous attempt (successful or not) at casting smite.

Do you have a reference for this? I must have missed it

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 Farseer_V2 wrote:
That is incorrect - psychic powers all tell us to choose a target when manifested, not resolved. The rule book uses very specific language in this case. A psychic power is manifested before deny the witch and resolved after. Each power tells you to select a target once manifested.

I don't intend to sound rude or pedantic but I don't see this as arguable. The rule book uses a specific word and that word coincides with target selection in the psychic power. In no form is a power required to be resolved before it is manifested.

Don't fret. You aren't being Pedantic. You are right, it seems. The phrase "if manifested" does appear on pretty much every power. My bad for not checking more carefully.

FYI he/she is not correct. The argument being made is one that leads to some rather daft places and assumes that picking a target is not part of resolving a power, which it is. A thread discussing it is in General but apparently should have been in YMDC- I underestimated Dakka lol.

 Korlandril wrote:
Do you have a reference for this? I must have missed it

This is the relevant article https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/12/15/the-future-of-faqs-and-chapter-approved-dec-15gw-homepage-post-2/.

And @Moosatronic - I don't think you've underestimated much of anything of than your own certitude. I find it hard to believe that you didn't think you'd be double checked on such a larger assertion. Ultimately I've laid out my argument on the subject and submitted an FAQ email to both GW and Frontline so I'll know how to handle it in the environments I play in.

 admironheart wrote:

 Puganaut wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
Tried out a list with Wild Riders and Fieldcraft. I did not have enough CPs but the Saim-Hann is a nice nice detachment for vypers.

The Nova Lance Autarch took out over 400 points of ork characters.

Read the rest, but HOOOLLLLDDD THE PHONE. Would you mind elaborating on this one?

Never Played orks....he had 2 burner tank units from Forgeworld and 2 big walkers from forgeworld. The spears went after the first walker and th Nova Lance autarch went after a burner. He did like 4 wounds to the burner....no big impact....the spears meanwhile took out one of his forgeworld big walkers.

He charges his big CC boss into the Autarch Skyrunner and does like 2 wounds to him....The skyrunner kills the big boss in hth with a slew of 6's for 4 wounds each on the Nova Lance.

Next the Autarch flys over and kills 2 warp boyz in short range hth and charges the other 2 and they both die.

He is fed up with this and charges a CC equipped Mek boy into the Autarch who makes all his saves and finishes him off ....next turn he kills some other ork character(maybe mekboy with grot)

He then gets shot to death by the 2nd forgeworld walker.....but he terrorized all his characters.

This is also my experience of the biketarch, that he's exceedingly good at targeting and taking down enemy characters in particular. His speed is insane, he doesn't have to worry about bringing support into tight spots where characters can be targeted, and doesn't have to depend on dice for psychic tests or strategems, and can usually get close enough that charge rolls aren't an issue. He can stand up to loads of punishment--until the moment when your roll a handfull of 1's and 2's for saves, but by then hopefully the damage is done. Hitting on 2s and rerolling 1s means you almost never miss anything.

If you're used to 5th edition biketarchs like I am--i.e. the ones who can only kill an enemy on the charge and then are saddled with a str3 stick for the rest of combat--it's shocking how often your autarch can put 2 or 4 wounds on an enemy in the second round of combat to finish off a character. It's because of the 4 melee attacks usually turning up 4 hits, then you get lucky with one or two wounds and your opponent is trying to roll invuls.

-I run the index version with the fusion gun and laser lance. The fusion gun is great for potentially putting 3 or 4 wounds on a target before you even charge in.

-I play Ulthwe, so I miss out on the artifact lance, but Foresight of the Damned usually gives the autarch effectively a couple of extra wounds during the course of the game, and there's the occasional wacky roll where you turn up three sixes or whatever. Also it gives you at least a chance to do something against smite.

-The shimmerplume is the go-to artifact for me, but I've also played the phoenix gem in combat patrol, where I knew the autarch would be off on his own a lot, and that pays off too in denying an opponent Slay the Warlord in the last turn or whatever.

-Mark of the Incomparable Hunter allows your autarch to advance 22" and fire the fusion gun, laser lance *and* 4 shuricats at any character within 12" with no penalty. Usually all the guns hit. As long as you're not planning to assault that turn.

Remember if you are going to go with 4 warlocks in a conclave...you have 2 additional problems.

The size of the unit is harder to hide/fit inside a WS.
Once you lose 1 warlock you are down to a 3 man unit that can cast 1 spell.

Much better to take 2 two man Conclaves.
Pros:
You can have 4 powers available.
You can cast 2 powers always as long as you have 1 model each (Essentially the opponent needs to do more than 3 wounds otherwise your unit is still viable
Easier to tuck 2 units into multiple WSs with other models or to hide behind that rock.
I always use 1 conclave but may start using twin conclaves.

Since Reapers/ WraithGuard/ and War Walkers take almost all the first turn shooting (Fire Dragons and Web Guardians if you do go first also) I find that it isn't till turn 2 or 3 that the Conclave is a priority for enemy shooting.

Hello.

I haven't run into many Eldar players in my local area and was hoping some of you guys would be kind enough to give me the quick-and-dirty of how Eldar play in 8th, what units to take a gander at, and what units to avoid. Thinking about starting a small Biel-Tan army but really don't have too much of an idea if I even like how Eldar play.

Thanks in advance.

 tpogs wrote:
Hello.

I haven't run into many Eldar players in my local area and was hoping some of you guys would be kind enough to give me the quick-and-dirty of how Eldar play in 8th, what units to take a gander at, and what units to avoid. Thinking about starting a small Biel-Tan army but really don't have too much of an idea if I even like how Eldar play.

Thanks in advance.

I would say you will see a smattering of these units:

Dark Reapers perhaps in multiples. They can start in tanks move shoot and then use stratagem to hide
Hemlock Wraith or Crimson hunter Fighter for heavy hitting.
Wave Serpents.....hard to kill and best transport in the game
WebWay Portal...Most likely Guardians to get in your face with 40+ shots
Some fast hth unit like Shining Spears or Howling Banshees for a turn 1 alpha strike
Everything else is meh.

War Walkers, Vypers WraithGuard, Fire Dragons all can be devastating but require some 'stunt'

If you want to know what the elder will do....learn their STRATEGEMS. The best armies will be built to use those strategems to take average units and make them into 'wow' units.

have fun!!!!!

I would add the various psykers to that list of units to take. You have to take HQs to unlock the detachments anyway but their powers are also very good.

I'd also say that Swooping Hawks and possibly Fire Prisms are above "meh" and worth considering. Fire Prsims are outclassed by Reapers but still a decent unit. Hawks are fairly niche anti-horde and outclassed by webway Guardians, but you can only really have one webway Guardian unit so Hawks are worth it if hordes are a problem. I've found that 20 Guardians, 10 Hawks and 9 Spears can be very effective at clearing hordes on the first turn.

Totally agree with your point about stratagems.

How does everyone feel about Falcons? They seem to be an overlooked option, they have the capacity to protect MSU Aspect Warriors turn 1 while also providing reliable AT fire support. Granted they're not as durable as Wave Serpents but they can help fill out those Spearhead detachments while giving transport capacity.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How does everyone feel about Falcons? They seem to be an overlooked option, they have the capacity to protect MSU Aspect Warriors turn 1 while also providing reliable AT fire support. Granted they're not as durable as Wave Serpents but they can help fill out those Spearhead detachments while giving transport capacity.

Falcons are outclassed by Serpents in a transport role and outclassed by Prisms in a heavy tank role. That's the problem. You want Falcons to fill one of those roles, but their are better options and Serpents actually come close to outclassing them in the Heavy tank roll too.

Falcons SHOULD have been given the same "shoot twice" rule that Prims have. Especially considering "Pulsed Laser discharge" has Pulse laser in the name. But even then, Prisms might still be better.

Falcon is not a bad tank, it just lacks a proper role, which makes it look subpar to others.

Shooting twice is main tank thing. I'd give Falcon ability to move and shoot heavy weapons without penalties, to represent it's back line transport role, compared to WS front line transport role.

Mr. Funktastic wrote:
How does everyone feel about Falcons? They seem to be an overlooked option, they have the capacity to protect MSU Aspect Warriors turn 1 while also providing reliable AT fire support. Granted they're not as durable as Wave Serpents but they can help fill out those Spearhead detachments while giving transport capacity.

Not good enough compared to wave serpents. If you really want heavy firepower then there are better options discussed in this thread: Chunters, reapers, prisms, etc. If you want transports then serpents are far better; more durable, more mobile with vectored engines and shuricannon loadout.

It's a shame, they should have gotten something to hark back to the old squadron special rules but their cloudstrike ability was given to all vehicles via strategem and only prisms got a joint fire strategem. Move and shoot at full bs would have been a good one.

I think the Falcon has a niche role, granted of course it's not the optimal choice for either a dedicated transport or dedicated heavy fire support. I think if you're looking to fill in some leftover points and the last slot of a Spearhead while providing some decent fire support and keeping your deployment drops down while you're at it you could do worse than a Falcon. It's not going to find a place in every list but I could see it working in the right situation.

The falcon is weird because damage out put wise it can beat all varients of a wave serpent. That said the falcon is considerably more fragile as the serpent shield goes quite the long way. So a transport for transport sake the wave serepent is better.

Then as a damaging platform fire prisms/hunters/hemlocks/etc all beat out the fire prism while also being as tough of tougher than your falcon. So as a gun boat it sucks.

I think the falcon isn't nessarily bad. It's actuialy quite decent you look at it. It's just that it doesn't lend itself to helping any plan better than any other unit in our codex.

Think of the Falcon as a light tank ala a Razorback.

The Fire Prism is a main line battle tank.

From there you need to go to Forgeworld for our tanks.

That is a problem.....we need more tank options.

I am unfamiliar with what the Razorback can do but the falcon should be cost in the same vein and such so it maintains the same role.

^^ Ive never considered how similar the Falcon and Razorback are in this edition.

Firepower is very similar you have (for example) a Twin lascannon and stormbolter, vs a Twin Shuricat, pulse laser and a heavy weapon such as a bright lance. Very similar.

Protection is also similar, with 2 extra wounds on the Falcon if I remember correct? Other stats the same. Razorback has smoke launchers also.

Mobility is where the Falcon is stronger, with a better base move and the Fly keyword. This is what you pay the extra points for.

I think its fair to also factor in Chapter Tactics/Craftworld attributes, as Razorbacks are always unaffected by them while Falcons nearly always gain a benefit

If we compare the points cost of a lascannon razorback and a Falcon with Bright lance, there is only 30 points difference. Pretty good deal if you look at it that way, razorbacks are universally considered quite good value even after a small points increase.

Razorbacks get to reroll to hit and to wound though, and that's where the difference in value starts to pop up.

 Fafnir wrote:
Razorbacks get to reroll to hit and to wound though, and that's where the difference in value starts to pop up.

Pretty sure that would be an issue related to Guilliman, rather than Razorbacks being overpowered. Razorbacks are still strong though thats for sure, otherwise UM players would be spamming something else to take advantage of the rerolls.

Eldar do not lack in force multipliers either.

A Razorback is a good comparison, not to mention that it has comparable or superior firepower, better durability (+2 wounds, -1 to hit from Alaitoc, and 6+++ from spirit stones/Ulthwe), and better mobility. I think in Eldar's case you wouldn't use them as SM use Razorbacks (being solely cost efficient fire support in a parking lot) but more along the lines of a turn 1 safety net for your Aspect Warriors and decent fire support and backline objective camper if you don't have the points for another Wave Serpent as well as being a Heavy Support slot to fill in a Spearhead if you don't want to shell out the points for two Fire Prisms (because you would never take just one Prism, always in pairs for Linked Fire). Definitely a jack of all trades option, but in the right situation I don't think it's a bad thing.

Falcons are still paying penance for their crimes against the Imperium in 4th edition.