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I play Deathguard. I like the idea of Mortarion but I hate models with wings.

Would you play against a wingless Mortarion, his movement explained by teleportation, great leaps or other kinds of non avian transportation?

The same goes for daemon prices. Was thinking about using a stegadon with some kind of torso on it to make a giant Nurgle centaur daemon prince to explain the speed. Would you be ok with such a thing?

He is big enough that his wings are irrelevant for him to be out of LOS, unless you are playing with really BIG pieces of Terrain. So personally I'll have 0 problems.

Some might argue that it's modelling for advantage. Cause the smaller a mellee model is - the better. You might try to make sort of fumes instead of wings so that enemies would be able to shoot him easier.

I wouldn't mind but i feel the same way about wings in general

I would be totally fine with it. I actually really want to run my own DPs without wings because the base model looks so much cooler, but wings just give you so much more.

At least Mortarion doesn't have the option to go without wings, so with them or without them you won't have much of an issue with the rules.

 koooaei wrote:
Some might argue that it's modelling for advantage. Cause the smaller a mellee model is - the better. You might try to make sort of fumes instead of wings so that enemies would be able to shoot him easier.

I thought wings were included in the guns/swords/antennae category of things that do not count for drawing LoS?

Yes, I would play against it. If you're modelling to get a look you like you're not modelling for advantage, even if you end up getting an advantage.

I don't know why this game still has "true line of sight". It offers no advantage I can think of, while causing people to hesitate before making cool conversions they'd really like. All because it may look like they're modelling for advantage. It's an antiquated rule that stifles creativity and fosters toxicity.

I do like wings and think they look really cool, even if they make models a pain to transport. I don't like Mortarion though, but that's down to personal preference.

 Ashiraya wrote:

I thought wings were included in the guns/swords/antennae category of things that do not count for drawing LoS?

There's no such rule.

In the past there was that rule, yes, that standards, etc... didn't count for LoS, to not discourage people from having cool conversions with that kind of things.

We still play that way, around where I live.

I wouldn't be too keen to play against a Mortarion without wings. They are an extremely large contributor to his size for determining line of sight, and omitting them would make him much easier to hide. With a model like Mortarion, that kind of thing could make the difference between being able to shoot him before he starts trashing your army or having a full-strength Daemon Primarch suddenly show up in your lines.

FudgeDumper wrote:
I play Deathguard. I like the idea of Mortarion but I hate models with wings.

I hate the Judge Dredd Lawmaster, so I dislike bikes. Wings are fine.

I do think the wings are pretty weak looking on Mortarion --- would rather see a giant jump pack (using the drone engines or something).

 Luciferian wrote:
I wouldn't be too keen to play against a Mortarion without wings. They are an extremely large contributor to his size for determining line of sight, and omitting them would make him much easier to hide. With a model like Mortarion, that kind of thing could make the difference between being able to shoot him before he starts trashing your army or having a full-strength Daemon Primarch suddenly show up in your lines.

I agree. For me it's one thing to not use wings on a daemon prince, but entirely different thing not to use part of a special character.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Some might argue that it's modelling for advantage. Cause the smaller a mellee model is - the better. You might try to make sort of fumes instead of wings so that enemies would be able to shoot him easier.

I thought wings were included in the guns/swords/antennae category of things that do not count for drawing LoS?

Its one of those so rules that are so commonly house ruled that people tend to just assume its a rule. An unspoken rule if you will.

But yeah, my group wouldn't count wings for LoS so you'd be fine.

 chimeara wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I wouldn't be too keen to play against a Mortarion without wings. They are an extremely large contributor to his size for determining line of sight, and omitting them would make him much easier to hide. With a model like Mortarion, that kind of thing could make the difference between being able to shoot him before he starts trashing your army or having a full-strength Daemon Primarch suddenly show up in your lines.

I agree. For me it's one thing to not use wings on a daemon prince, but entirely different thing not to use part of a special character.

Yep, the Daemon Prince wings aren't unfurled so they don't stick out much anyway, and seeing that you can make a reasonable DP out of almost anything and say it has a jump pack, gas glands or other type of locomotion, it's not that big of a deal unless your base model is very small itself. Mortarion is such a powerful model that fudging anything around profile wise is modelling for an advantage though, no matter what your intentions are.

 Luciferian wrote:

 chimeara wrote:

 Luciferian wrote:
I wouldn't be too keen to play against a Mortarion without wings. They are an extremely large contributor to his size for determining line of sight, and omitting them would make him much easier to hide. With a model like Mortarion, that kind of thing could make the difference between being able to shoot him before he starts trashing your army or having a full-strength Daemon Primarch suddenly show up in your lines.

I agree. For me it's one thing to not use wings on a daemon prince, but entirely different thing not to use part of a special character.

Yep, the Daemon Prince wings aren't unfurled so they don't stick out much anyway, and seeing that you can make a reasonable DP out of almost anything and say it has a jump pack, gas glands or other type of locomotion, it's not that big of a deal unless your base model is very small itself. Mortarion is such a powerful model that fudging anything around profile wise is modelling for an advantage though, no matter what your intentions are.

Do you feel the same way about the flying hive tyrant model? That is far more fragile than Mortarion and has (I assume) a much larger wingspan.

 Sim-Life wrote:


Do you feel the same way about the flying hive tyrant model? That is far more fragile than Mortarion and has (I assume) a much larger wingspan.

Yes and no. It's roughly equivalent in points and effectiveness to a DP, and there have been many different models and conversions out there already, so for me there is wiggle room. But I'd still be somewhat perturbed if it didn't have some kind of wings/ gas sacs etc. Still not as big a deal as removing the wings from a model as well established and powerful as Mortarion.

To be honest, even without Wings, I don't see how someone could hide this model behind something unless you are playing with very , very big buildings, mountains, etc...

 Galas wrote:
To be honest, even without Wings, I don't see how someone could hide this model behind something unless you are playing with very , very big buildings, mountains, etc...

Spoiler:

True, most tables probably don't have the type of large, LOS blocking terrain necessary to hide a wingless Morty (though they should). But the wings increase the width and height of his profile so much that it goes from basically impossible with them to merely unlikely without them, on the average table. I'm saying all this as a DG player with Morty, not even as his opponent.

Yeah, I can see that argument. It makes sense.

I have no interest in having Mortarion, but if I bought him, and use him without wings, I'll give anyone the hability to shoot at him even if they don't see him without wings. I think is easy to discern if with Wings X unit could have shoot at him.

But I can see the argument about that creating unnecesary discusson. Thats why we need volumen cilinders or something for the rules!

It would be nice if they just let go of TLOS and made cover rules according to base size. I haven't liked cover or terrain rules in 40k for some time and I consider it a shame that they could so simply and elegantly make a few rules that would totally preclude this kind of situation, as well as apply very easily to any kind of model or terrain you're likely to convert or come up against. But alas...

I wouldn't care if you removed his wings, unless you were doing it for some sort of shenanigans. He's still a huge model who will very rarely be able to hide.

I personally don't like his model at all. I don't think he should have wings, he should be walking around all slow and purposeful like the rest of the Death Guard. They seem like a zombie tide sort of army to me.

Or have him ride on top of a rhino. That'd be awesome.

 Elbows wrote:
I do think the wings are pretty weak looking on Mortarion --- would rather see a giant jump pack (using the drone engines or something).

the bloated drone engines would look badass on morty, the moth wings don't do the model justice, and I hate nurgle/death guard.

but as long as it's not "modeling for advantage" it should be all good.

What if you had him without wings but then attached the wings to a separate bit of plastic or something (roughly in the position they'd be on the model)?

If there's a dispute about whether or not the wings would make him visible at any time, you could hold the wings in place and see if they would make him visible.

This would let him be wingless for the most part, but you would be able to retain their silhouette in order to dispel any concerns about resulting LoS issues.

General question- How does one determine if someone is modelling for advantage as opposed to aesthetics? I assume that the person doing the former would just claim the later.

Just to be crystal clear I am in no way saying that the OP is doing this. I just want the community's input on how they can determine the difference.

For me I'd say kitbashing or otherwise converting a model to reduce it's profile from the original size. Such as using a daemon prince for a greater daemon or chopping off pieces but replacing them with smaller versions. Such as using chaos fury wings on a daemon prince.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
General question- How does one determine if someone is modelling for advantage as opposed to aesthetics? I assume that the person doing the former would just claim the later.

Just to be crystal clear I am in no way saying that the OP is doing this. I just want the community's input on how they can determine the difference.

That's the problem. You can't. Which is why it shouldn't be a thing - TLOS needs to go.

This game needs gentlemen's agreements to work properly, I accept that. But that doesn't mean it's an ideal situation, a better-built game benefits all.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
General question- How does one determine if someone is modelling for advantage as opposed to aesthetics? I assume that the person doing the former would just claim the later.

Just to be crystal clear I am in no way saying that the OP is doing this. I just want the community's input on how they can determine the difference.

You really can't other than by looking at the model in question.

Say someone has modelled their Riptide in a prone pose on the ground holding a modified gun that looks like a hugely upsized anti-materiel rifle. That is one epic conversion but by the definition of the rules, his riptide now has an advantage of being MUCH shorter than a standard riptide.

Alternatively, given the opinions of some people on this board, it should be perfectly legal to show up with a Tyranid Warrior with Gargoyle wings and call that a Hive Tyrant, since it is larger than the 2nd edition version of the Hive Tyrant released.

The former would be, by strict LoS rules, something modelling for advantage while the second is, bizarrely, not.