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craggy wrote:


There's such an easy way for GW to kill Bits Sellers. They can sell bits! If only they had some way to offer parts to customers, who want to order them, by mail...

Doesn't make sense. If they did that, they'd simply discontinue index datasheets (or probably wouldn't have even included some of the older legacy options in the index in the first place).

If anything, allowing long-time hobbyists to legally use obscure and ancient options not easily available from GW in the "walk-into-the-store-knows-nothing-about-40K-picks-up-eldar-codex-with-SC-box-type-customers"-way opens up another niche for bits sellers. while allowing GW store managers to sell what they have in the inventory.

Let's face it, even most GW employees aren't THAT deep into the historic GW range to know or be able to answer customer questions about obscure old figures that might randomly have a new lease on life for six months due to some random temporary tournament-relevant synergy. Putting these out of the main GW-store spotlight but keeping it legal for the hard-core fans HELPS bits makers cater to that particular crowd.

There's the Skyrider Autarch, with the old jetbike to ride. How long is that going to stay in the range?

Also, what happened to "The Hobby"? The idea that stock models were vaguely inferior to models that you had to work to use.

"dude chapterhouse lol"

Chapterhouse has nothing to do with GW's incompetence. "Piracy is a service problem" as my old buddy Gabe Newell once said. If GW was willing to actually compete in the market and address the needs of its customers rather then try to dictate what people want, there would have never been such a big 3rd party market for bitz. Recasts, 3rd party replicas, 3rd party models altogether like plastic sisters: these are all a direct result of GW refusal to move at any speed other then the beat of their own drum.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Cream Tea wrote:
Anyway, GW have said that you can still use Index entries that aren't in the codex.

It's not as clear as that, but that's discussed in other threads.

Thank Chapter House for the current state of No Model, No Rules.

Why?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Chapter+House+Games+Workshop

TL;DR Chapter House made 3rd party models but used GW's Trademarked names. GW Sued, Court Case went to hell, GW responded by throwing it's toys out of the pram and started renaming stuff by addling vowels or latin and giving everything adjective nounverb names because COPYRIGHT!

"Throwing its toys out of its pram" is an interesting term for "putting sixteen band-aids on your cut before you go back to wading in the amazon". Legal precedent is a powerful tool when it comes to copyright law, and Chapterhouse specifically won when it came to terms like "Imperial Guard", "Eldar" and "Space Marines" because they were not legally unique and distinct enough. That legal precedent essentially means anyone who wants to make "Eldar" miniatures can make "Eldar" miniatures.

the_scotsman wrote:
"Throwing its toys out of its pram" is an interesting term for "putting sixteen band-aids on your cut before you go back to wading in the amazon". Legal precedent is a powerful tool when it comes to copyright law, and Chapterhouse specifically won when it came to terms like "Imperial Guard", "Eldar" and "Space Marines" because they were not legally unique and distinct enough. That legal precedent essentially means anyone who wants to make "Eldar" miniatures can make "Eldar" miniatures.

But has GW's "fix" actually fixed anything?

"Hah, we've changed 'Imperial Guard' to 'Astra Militarum'. Now, if those pirates want to make knock-offs, they'll have to stick with 'Imperial Guard' - just like all of our players. Wait, what problem were we solving again?"

Yeah guard will always be guard, space marines the same the stupid name changes won't stop people making stuff anyone with two brain cells could of told them that.

Don't even start me on aos....

 vipoid wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
"Throwing its toys out of its pram" is an interesting term for "putting sixteen band-aids on your cut before you go back to wading in the amazon". Legal precedent is a powerful tool when it comes to copyright law, and Chapterhouse specifically won when it came to terms like "Imperial Guard", "Eldar" and "Space Marines" because they were not legally unique and distinct enough. That legal precedent essentially means anyone who wants to make "Eldar" miniatures can make "Eldar" miniatures.

But has GW's "fix" actually fixed anything?

"Hah, we've changed 'Imperial Guard' to 'Astra Militarum'. Now, if those pirates want to make knock-offs, they'll have to stick with 'Imperial Guard' - just like all of our players. Wait, what problem were we solving again?"

This one always bugs me. One of the very biggest things made clear in the Astra Militarum book was that "It's the fancy, High Gothic name. You can call them whatever you want--this is the fancy name like Adeptus Astartes"...yet people got so upset about the name on the book being changed.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

TheBaconPope wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that 90% of these modeling concerns could be solved if GW just released weapon sprues like the Space Marines get?

Oh yeah. And maybe even do I dare to hope arms sprue for bp&ccw arms? I would kill for that.

But nope. Instead we get monopose unique sculpts which makes these additions even harder.

Funny that GW doesn't see money to be made by selling additional purchaces to convert models. First box of troops. Then arms sprue and then weapon sprue. 3 sales to make one box worth of models!

They did. Remember the Black Templar upgrade sprues? Pretty much exactly what you're describing. Far as I know its the only box like that they ever made.

I'm guessing they didn't do well enough for GW to keep up with the scheme. Which is a shame because I used to have a Black Templar army and I thought those upgrade boxes were awesome. Would've really loved a box like that for Orks or IG.

They made two others, the Dark Angels Upgrade Sprue and the Ravenwing Sprue. They cocked up the former because they included full bodies, essentially making the upgrade sprue a cheap way to get 5 marine bodies for 20 CAD (at a time when a box of marines cost 45 CAD). 5 really good looking bodies btw. The Ravenwing Sprue, on the other hand, never really took off because it only had two real purposes; make ravenwing bikers (who sucked for 2 whole editions) and to make sammael in Sableclaw, who also sucked for two editions. Apart from some other vehicle decorations, there was nothing you really needed out of that sprue.

And the reason the DA sprue came with 5 extra full bodies is because people complained that the Black Templar sprue made it too expensive to do BTs; you had to pay 45 CAD for the base tactical squad, then 36 CAD for the upgrade sprue, then 60 CAD for the two boxes of scouts/neophytes. The DA sprue, in theory, could be tacked on to a combat squad to make 10 marines for about 50 CAD instead, but then the above happened. The DA sprue still exists, but is now packaged as "Dark Angels Company Veterans" because it is essentially just 5 DA veterans. When Space Wolves rolled around, they just didn't bother with an upgrade sprue and just did a full set of them (for Power Armored wolves and terminators alike).

I really love 8th edition, but this removing options thing is utterly crazy and super frustrating.

Still even then sprues are not quite what I would be hoping. Sprue that has just CCW&BP arms. Not chapter specific kits, not vehicle kits etc. Then other sprues like special weapon/heavy weapon sprues etc. Maybe jump pack sprues etc.

I do agree that this is the worst design decision GW has made in...a long time. The only nice thing is that if you don't tournament game...and you're not a cheesy douche - model your stuff as you want and pay your points. I mentioned it in another thread - you want to model your Primaris Captain with double lighting claws? Go for it. Just pay the points. It's not going to break the game or end the world.

I admit, I don't like the Autarch and don't think he should exist fluff-wise. I do think a Dark Reaper launcher flying Autarch with the sniper ability is pretty cheesy and not something I'd run. But if your opponent allows it and you pay your points - go for it. We aren't beholden to how we play 40K. Change your rules, loosen them up a bit. If you're a tourney-goer or training for tourneys...don't. Simple.

 Elbows wrote:
I do agree that this is the worst design decision GW has made in...a long time. The only nice thing is that if you don't tournament game...and you're not a cheesy douche - model your stuff as you want and pay your points. I mentioned it in another thread - you want to model your Primaris Captain with double lighting claws? Go for it. Just pay the points. It's not going to break the game or end the world.

I agree heartily with this sentiment.

 Elbows wrote:
I admit, I don't like the Autarch and don't think he should exist fluff-wise.

Any chance you could elaborate on this?

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

TheBaconPope wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that 90% of these modeling concerns could be solved if GW just released weapon sprues like the Space Marines get?

Oh yeah. And maybe even do I dare to hope arms sprue for bp&ccw arms? I would kill for that.

But nope. Instead we get monopose unique sculpts which makes these additions even harder.

Funny that GW doesn't see money to be made by selling additional purchaces to convert models. First box of troops. Then arms sprue and then weapon sprue. 3 sales to make one box worth of models!

They did. Remember the Black Templar upgrade sprues? Pretty much exactly what you're describing. Far as I know its the only box like that they ever made.

I'm guessing they didn't do well enough for GW to keep up with the scheme. Which is a shame because I used to have a Black Templar army and I thought those upgrade boxes were awesome. Would've really loved a box like that for Orks or IG.

They made two others, the Dark Angels Upgrade Sprue and the Ravenwing Sprue. They cocked up the former because they included full bodies, essentially making the upgrade sprue a cheap way to get 5 marine bodies for 20 CAD (at a time when a box of marines cost 45 CAD). 5 really good looking bodies btw. The Ravenwing Sprue, on the other hand, never really took off because it only had two real purposes; make ravenwing bikers (who sucked for 2 whole editions) and to make sammael in Sableclaw, who also sucked for two editions. Apart from some other vehicle decorations, there was nothing you really needed out of that sprue.

And the reason the DA sprue came with 5 extra full bodies is because people complained that the Black Templar sprue made it too expensive to do BTs; you had to pay 45 CAD for the base tactical squad, then 36 CAD for the upgrade sprue, then 60 CAD for the two boxes of scouts/neophytes. The DA sprue, in theory, could be tacked on to a combat squad to make 10 marines for about 50 CAD instead, but then the above happened. The DA sprue still exists, but is now packaged as "Dark Angels Company Veterans" because it is essentially just 5 DA veterans. When Space Wolves rolled around, they just didn't bother with an upgrade sprue and just did a full set of them (for Power Armored wolves and terminators alike).

NVM, I should read the full post before posting

And the Black Templar sprue is AWESOME. The problem is people using ALL the parts on 5 models. If you use one black templar part for model with just a upgrade sprue you can make 20 (Or more) Black Templar space marines, 5 black templar terminators, and some black templar vehicles.

It's probably actually more game-wise I dislike the Autarch and will never run or own one. The Autarch is one of the Eldar models which is indicative of the change in GW's army design --- when armies went from being more individual to more bland. I preferred the narrower focus when Eldar started in RT/2nd ed.

The identity of each army was highlighted more by its missing elements and what it lacked, than what it had. That's part of good design to me - a benefit, with a penalty.

Guard had better tanks than anyone, including the Marines - awesome. Tyranids ate your face in close combat with almost zero exception. Eldar were one-trick ponies with powerful psykers. Necrons, for their brief introduction were soulless and nigh unstoppable (to a level not even imagined in today's game). Orks were crazy, inaccurate and bizarre...but could overwhelm you with bizarre weapons.

A lot of armies lacked a lot of elements that other armies had. That was very much the purpose. With Eldar - you made due with the crazy big Avatar or a potent Farseer (who, admittedly was far stronger then than now). But the gap you had? You didn't have the Space Marine captain option. An armored super fighter. You had Exarchs (who were vastly more potent than now) and more Warlocks (also miles more potent than the joke they are now), but you didn't have the mega-combatant. You could trick out a pretty mean Exarch, but even then you were more likely to keep them aimed in one discipline. The closest you came to a Space Marine captain figure was a Phoenix Lord - and they were rightly aimed at one kind of goal or discipline.

The Autarch just smacks of a "hell, let them do everything" kind of approach that GW has been on for a decade or more. I don't think it adds much to the game personally. An Autarch with swooping hawk wings, a banshee mask, and a dark reaper launcher, etc...is just piss-lazy game design. I appreciate the idea of "oh he's been in all the aspects so he's got..."...it's just boring. It's also out of character to me, but it's just a silly personal gripe.

I think I understand where you're coming from, Elbows.

I seem to recall someone (might even have been you) saying recently that the Autarch was basically GW giving Eldar a DE Archon, but the lack of an Archon-equivalent in Eldar was one of the things that had made the two distinct.

For me autarch reminded of 2nd ed exarch. Versatile combat monster with lots of conversion potential

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The justification by itself "that it requires new players to kitbash" is a horrid cop-out. Rather than make it simpler to mix-and-match components, have spare bitz (or even weapon-packs), GW said "nope, no options."

lmao relax man

you all in the thread relax I mean GW is a gaming company not a modelling company

 Galas wrote:
And the Black Templar sprue is AWESOME. The problem is people using ALL the parts on 5 models. If you use one black templar part for model with just a upgrade sprue you can make 20 (Or more) Black Templar space marines, 5 black templar terminators, and some black templar vehicles.

The sprue is awesome, don't get me wrong. But the pricepoint is a bit high for me to spend, especially since again you need neophytes, who are more expensive than the marines already.

If it was 10 bucks cheaper I would be so totally over that.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The justification by itself "that it requires new players to kitbash" is a horrid cop-out. Rather than make it simpler to mix-and-match components, have spare bitz (or even weapon-packs), GW said "nope, no options."

lmao relax man

you all in the thread relax I mean GW is a gaming company not a modelling company

Nice one

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Galas wrote:
And the Black Templar sprue is AWESOME. The problem is people using ALL the parts on 5 models. If you use one black templar part for model with just a upgrade sprue you can make 20 (Or more) Black Templar space marines, 5 black templar terminators, and some black templar vehicles.

The sprue is awesome, don't get me wrong. But the pricepoint is a bit high for me to spend, especially since again you need neophytes, who are more expensive than the marines already.

If it was 10 bucks cheaper I would be so totally over that.

Many times I tought about making Black Templar just for that sprue We need upgrade sprues like those for Primaris. The Ultramarine one was *****. Like, it didn't even had a crested helmet?! And the primaris heads without helmets had 0 that make them Ultramarines. At least the normal one has the laurel crown.

And poor old Web of Skulls Autarch isn't in either book...

The 'forcing' people to kitbash argument is a strong contender for this years 'stupidiest thing said by GW'

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The justification by itself "that it requires new players to kitbash" is a horrid cop-out. Rather than make it simpler to mix-and-match components, have spare bitz (or even weapon-packs), GW said "nope, no options."

lmao relax man

you all in the thread relax I mean GW is a gaming company not a modelling company

On the opposite they are models first, games second. Wgich is the issue here

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
The 'forcing' people to kitbash argument is a strong contender for this years 'stupidiest thing said by GW'

Yeah, it really doesn't make sense to me.

- As long as the model comes with at least some of the options available, then no one will ever by "forced" to kitbash (just take the options it already comes with).

- In a lot of cases, kitbashing isn't even that hard. Almost effortless, even. I mean, back in 5th, the designers were boasting about how easy it was to swap arms and such between DE models.

- I know this might blow GW's mind, but many people might even find kitbashing fun.


It's like if Lego decided "Well, we don't want to force our customers to assemble our products, so we've decided to start selling each set as one big brick in the exact shape of the model."

LEGO actually does that, to the derision of the AFOL (Adult Fan of LEGO) community, that they've come up with a particularly derisive term for certain noncustomizable parts, the "Piece with Only One Purpose" (or POOP). A notable POOP example is the "rock-throwing arm" from the Rock Raiders line, and increased POOP proliferation is considered a form of dumbing down for the uncreatives.

 vipoid wrote:
It's like if Lego decided "Well, we don't want to force our customers to assemble our products, so we've decided to start selling each set as one big brick in the exact shape of the model."

Lego actually almost did that with Bionicle and Hero Factory. The worst was the Av-torians and Agori, who had some of the lowest piece counts ever for lego sets (and that is not an exaggeration, some of those sets had 7 pieces). Even now their "Constraction" builds are more like broken apart action figures rather than actual construction sets.

 MagicJuggler wrote:
LEGO actually does that, to the derision of the AFOL (Adult Fan of LEGO) community, that they've come up with a particularly derisive term for certain noncustomizable parts, the "Piece with Only One Purpose" (or POOP). A notable POOP example is the "rock-throwing arm" from the Rock Raiders line, and increased POOP proliferation is considered a form of dumbing down for the uncreatives.

As someone once hardcore into Lego I can vouch for this.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Red_Five wrote:

Or in the case of 5 of my Sergeants - Power Axes?

And in the case of Lt. Jefferson "Wild Hog" Bashford, a Power Fist!

Powerfists are still in the Guard book, just not on Sergeants.

Which is pretty stupid since the only available Guard Powerfist in plastic has a Sergeant's chevrons on it.

Really? I never noticed. My Lt. with a Power Fist is an old metal Catachan, so he likely does not have that issue.

Now i want to go look at my Cadian sprues to see the sergeant chevrons.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The justification by itself "that it requires new players to kitbash" is a horrid cop-out. Rather than make it simpler to mix-and-match components, have spare bitz (or even weapon-packs), GW said "nope, no options."

lmao relax man

you all in the thread relax I mean GW is a gaming company not a modelling company

Did GW ever revert that statement that they didn't make rules, they made models? I remember that quote being thrown around a lot in 7th, I think it was a Kirbyism if I remember correctly. I just remember not knowing whether to laugh or shake my head when I heard it.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
The justification by itself "that it requires new players to kitbash" is a horrid cop-out. Rather than make it simpler to mix-and-match components, have spare bitz (or even weapon-packs), GW said "nope, no options."

lmao relax man

you all in the thread relax I mean GW is a gaming company not a modelling company

Did GW ever revert that statement that they didn't make rules, they made models? I remember that quote being thrown around a lot in 7th, I think it was a Kirbyism if I remember correctly. I just remember not knowing whether to laugh or shake my head when I heard it.

Gw don't make rules or models, they make faq's now.....

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
It's like if Lego decided "Well, we don't want to force our customers to assemble our products, so we've decided to start selling each set as one big brick in the exact shape of the model."

Lego actually almost did that with Bionicle and Hero Factory. The worst was the Av-torians and Agori, who had some of the lowest piece counts ever for lego sets (and that is not an exaggeration, some of those sets had 7 pieces). Even now their "Constraction" builds are more like broken apart action figures rather than actual construction sets.

Those things were horrible.

I am looking at my OG Makuta, Takanuva and Toa Mata models gathering dust on a shelf (Is it okay to call them models? Ugh, adulthood...) and then the Hero Factory stuff and I am seeing all kinds of parallels with GW.

An example that leaps to mind is the old Space Marine Commander box (one of my favourite kits ever) and the new monopose Captain.

Also, worth remembering...if you have a monopose model a 3rd party company will struggle to make simple resin bits which are plug-n-play. Not saying it's impossible to mod them, but it removes the ease of copying or selling "notMarine" components.