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I suppose it needs an FAQ but I think RAW is failed charge = didn't charge.

What's interesting is no one questioned this until the tyranid adaptation. I suppose ork players are used to orks killing themselves but as a tyranid player this single ruling would change my entire army list.

Tristanleo wrote:

nekooni wrote:
OK , how about instead of arguing in a vacuum, you guys read the rules?

In my (German) BRB it clearly says in the first sentence of the fight phase that only units that successfully charged or have models within 1 inch of an enemy unit get to fight.

So a unit that failed it's charge roll has still charged, just not successfully. Otherwise there would be no reason to add that qualifier in the Fight phase conditions.

Therefore a Jermergerd unit that charged unsuccessfully still loses it's cover bonus.

And then we refer to further down the page that a unit that has charged makes a pile in move, there's no stipulation of needing a successful charge as Zimko said, and there we find our kettle of fish.

Yeah, but
a) the question in this thread is about Tyranid Adaption.
b) how do you get further down the page with a unit you were unable to pick in the first place? It's a sequence which always starts with step 1, how do you manage to choose a unit that hasn't successfully charged and isn't within 1 inch of an enemy unit? All the following steps always refer back to the unit picked in step 1.

nekooni wrote:
OK , how about instead of arguing in a vacuum, you guys read the rules?

In my (German) BRB it clearly says in the first sentence of the fight phase that only units that successfully charged or have models within 1 inch of an enemy unit get to fight.

So a unit that failed it's charge roll has still charged, just not successfully. Otherwise there would be no reason to add that qualifier in the Fight phase conditions.

Therefore a Jermergerd unit that charged unsuccessfully still loses it's cover bonus.

The first sentence in the Fight Phase in the Battle Primer is "any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."

Note that it does not say "successfully charged", hence the discussion here.

No need to be insulting by insinuating we aren't looking at the rules when it turns out what you're looking at is a difference in translation.

nekooni wrote:

Tristanleo wrote:

nekooni wrote:
OK , how about instead of arguing in a vacuum, you guys read the rules?

In my (German) BRB it clearly says in the first sentence of the fight phase that only units that successfully charged or have models within 1 inch of an enemy unit get to fight.

So a unit that failed it's charge roll has still charged, just not successfully. Otherwise there would be no reason to add that qualifier in the Fight phase conditions.

Therefore a Jermergerd unit that charged unsuccessfully still loses it's cover bonus.

And then we refer to further down the page that a unit that has charged makes a pile in move, there's no stipulation of needing a successful charge as Zimko said, and there we find our kettle of fish.

Yeah, but
a) the question in this thread is about Tyranid Adaption.
b) how do you get further down the page with a unit you were unable to pick in the first place? It's a sequence which always starts with step 1, how do you manage to choose a unit that hasn't successfully charged and isn't within 1 inch of an enemy unit? All the following steps always refer back to the unit picked in step 1.

Step 1 of the fight phase says...

Fight phase: "Any unit that charged or has models within 1"

If you're saying that a failed charge from the charge phase (A completely separate phase.... We're not in 7th anymore.) means the unit did not charge for the purposes of activating them in the fight phase, then they also did not charge for the purposes of the tyranid adaptation.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
If the German version says 'successfully' charged then it's different from the English version


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe their German editors realized the problem and added that word to prevent confusion.

 doctortom wrote:

nekooni wrote:
OK , how about instead of arguing in a vacuum, you guys read the rules?

In my (German) BRB it clearly says in the first sentence of the fight phase that only units that successfully charged or have models within 1 inch of an enemy unit get to fight.

So a unit that failed it's charge roll has still charged, just not successfully. Otherwise there would be no reason to add that qualifier in the Fight phase conditions.

Therefore a Jermergerd unit that charged unsuccessfully still loses it's cover bonus.

The first sentence in the Fight Phase in the Battle Primer is "any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase."

Note that it does not say "successfully charged", hence the discussion here.

No need to be insulting by insinuating we aren't looking at the rules when it turns out what you're looking at is a difference in translation.

Well I asked for the specific english wording earlier and didn't get a proper quote.

I don't have the English BRB, the German one then apparently translates "charged" with a German wording that clearly states "successfully charged".
Which means, assuming that isn't a mistake, that a unit that failed to charge has not charged at all in the English BRB.

So based on that I'd say Jumberbund Clutchersnatch units get to keep their cover bonus, but I (personally) will wait for the German stratagem and then it'll probably be easy to discern for German players.

Either way it's clearly worth mentioning in the Tyranid Codex FAQ.

Or the main rulebook FAQ (and possibly updating the Battle Primer) to indicate that a failed charge does not count as charging.

Its true. The german rules clearly say "All units that successfully charged", but the english rules say : "Any unit that charged". Thats a big difference. English players could pile in and consolidate, if a failed charge still counts as a charge, but germans cant.

Well that's what they get for losing the war!

Just kidding, this is actually a serious problem.

 doctortom wrote:
Or the main rulebook FAQ (and possibly updating the Battle Primer) to indicate that a failed charge does not count as charging.

True - it probably should be a BRB FAQ update, you're right. Although I personally hope they will make it so that the attempt to charge already counts as charging. Risk vs Reward.


Another issue I just noticed: What state are you in during overwatch? We havent even determined whether or not the charge is successful or not - so what's the verdict there? Do Jungamunga Dunglebuck units have cover vs overwatch shooting?

nekooni wrote:

 doctortom wrote:
Or the main rulebook FAQ (and possibly updating the Battle Primer) to indicate that a failed charge does not count as charging.

True - it probably should be a BRB FAQ update, you're right. Although I personally hope they will make it so that the attempt to charge already counts as charging. Risk vs Reward.


Another issue I just noticed: What state are you in during overwatch? We havent even determined whether or not the charge is successful or not - so what's the verdict there? Do Jungamunga Dunglebuck units have cover vs overwatch shooting?

That would just boil down to the decision on charging. If a successful charge = charged but an unsuccessful charge = hasn't charged then until the charge is successful there is no reason they wouldn't get the bonus. But if a declaration of charging = charged then it goes away the moment you select the unit.

I wouldn't worry too much about it. The bonus sv is pretty nice but it's not the real bonus. Jormungdr is going to be about Devilgaunt bombs we land on peoples doorsteps and overwatch never does much of anything anyway.

nekooni wrote:


I don't have the English BRB, the German one then apparently translates "charged" with a German wording that clearly states "successfully charged".

Yup, I just looked myself, the German rulebook explicitly nominates any unit "die erfolgreich angegriffen haben" - that has successfully charged.

But, I will also point out, I looked at every other rulebook where I have a good enough understanding of the grammar to translate that line (French, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Dutch, Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, specifically), and none of those include language requiring a "successful" charge, as the German book does. So there's definitely a question there of whether the German editors simply made the assumption that "successful" charge was implied, where other foreign language editors did not.

That was another can of worms.

The charge phase refers to the unit as the 'charging unit' multiple times. So it's clear that the unit is 'charging' during the charge phase, whether it succeeds or fails.

If the unit is charging (current tense) when the rule is triggered, then has the unit charged? That's the state it's in during overwatch. So again I feel the ruling is that it hasn't 'charged' (past tense) until it completes it's charge move. But the tyranid adaptation says 'if the unit charges then X'. So is being in the state 'charging' good enough to meet that?

 Zimko wrote:

What's interesting is no one questioned this until the tyranid adaptation.

Actually, there was a thread arguing about this a few weeks ago, vis-a-vis heroic intervention, and whether charging units could attack a character they declared a multicharge against, didn't get to, but then heroically intervened into the combat.

Spoiler: it didn't reach any better conclusion

I'd say send us in coach! GW, if you're listening, we're prepared to work together and squabble over every intricate detail of these dang rules to come up with a Comprehensive Rules Set. Make it an ancilliary product. The 40k Judge Rules Set.

"Does your group still argue about all the little rules? Is one player a true rules lawyer? Settle your disputes with the Inquistorial Approved Judge's Rules Set. Only $150."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Admit it. You'd buy it. And hate yourself for it. But you'd buy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"At last, you can savour the greatest pleasure this side of Slannesh... being right... on the internet."

 Yarium wrote:
I'd say send us in coach! GW, if you're listening, we're prepared to work together* and squabble over every intricate detail of these dang rules to come up with a Comprehensive Rules Set. Make it an ancilliary product. The 40k Judge Rules Set.

"Does your group still argue about all the little rules? Is one player a true rules lawyer? Settle your disputes with the Inquistorial Approved Judge's Rules Set. Only $150."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Admit it. You'd buy it. And hate yourself for it. But you'd buy it.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
"At last, you can savour the greatest pleasure this side of Slannesh... being right... on the internet."

* no actual work or cooperation included

 Yarium wrote:
I'd say send us in coach! GW, if you're listening, we're prepared to work together and squabble over every intricate detail of these dang rules to come up with a Comprehensive Rules Set. Make it an ancilliary product. The 40k Judge Rules Set.

"Does your group still argue about all the little rules? Is one player a true rules lawyer? Settle your disputes with the Inquistorial Approved Judge's Rules Set. Only $150."


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Admit it. You'd buy it. And hate yourself for it. But you'd buy it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
"At last, you can savour the greatest pleasure this side of Slannesh... being right... on the internet."

Naah, they can do better than the Judge's Rule Set. They can sell Made to Order metal Dreadnoughts, fit for sticking into a sock and applying it cranially to the offending party to aid in enforcing common sense.

Based on the RAW you have charged once you declare a charge. The BRB states that if you do not end the charge within 1" of the target then the charge is unsuccessful and "no models in the charging unit move this phase". So, the bugs lose their advantage since they charged.

However, to be chosen to fight in the fight phase you must have a model within 1" of an enemy model. So unless you somehow have one of your bugs within 1" of the enemy after an unsuccessful charge you do not get to participate in the fight phase at all.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Based on the RAW you have charged once you declare a charge. The BRB states that if you do not end the charge within 1" of the target then the charge is unsuccessful and "no models in the charging unit move this phase". So, the bugs lose their advantage since they charged.

However, to be chosen to fight in the fight phase you must have a model within 1" of an enemy model. So unless you somehow have one of your bugs within 1" of the enemy after an unsuccessful charge you do not get to participate in the fight phase at all.

Given that you're not allowed to charge if you start within 1" of the enemy, it's highly doubtful they'd be participating.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
However, to be chosen to fight in the fight phase you must have a model within 1" of an enemy model.

From 'Choose a Unit to Fight With', page 182:

Any unit that charged or has models within 1" of an enemy unit can be chosen to fight in the Fight phase.

Or we could read the rules. Thank you Ghaz.

 Zimko wrote:
Or we could read the rules. Thank you Ghaz.

Or what was written a few posts ago. The ones comparing the low quality languages with German *coughs

It doesn't clear up the argument. Has charged => successful but it isn't spelled out. It's obvious what the intent is, but still interesting oversight in the rules.

Just another interesting oversight to add to the list I suppose!

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just another interesting oversight to add to the list I suppose!

It's only an oversight if the intent is that Jormungandr lose the cover bonus for failing a charge. Things are consistent then.

While I certainly think any ruling will come down as "successfully charged"...

Holy crap, this means that a unit of deep striking Khornate Raptors will always get to fight once as long as you pay the CPs for the "Khorne fights again" strategy. (3" Pile + 3" Consolidate +3" Pile = 9" and fightin')

Zerks can do the same from the max charge range of 12", and can do it for free from 9".

Probably a stupid question to add to the discussion, but what about overwatch?
Do Jormungandr tyranids get to count as in cover against overwatch?

I think this would also depend on what counts as 'charging' - at the point of overwatch they have declared a charge, but not yet succeeded or failed it.

In opinion it's like a unit that failed a psychic test, it counts as casting and anything that happens because of that would still happen.

Not really the same. It would be like if a stratagem triggered between declaration of casting a power and actually casting the power.

Which just so happens that there is a tyranid stratagem that does this but it triggers when the enemy psyker 'attempts' to cast a power.

 Marmatag wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Just another interesting oversight to add to the list I suppose!

It's only an oversight if the intent is that Jormungandr lose the cover bonus for failing a charge. Things are consistent then.

That would make it INCONSISTENT, because if failing a charge means you've charged, then all failed chargers would still get their pile in and consolidate, as people have brought up.

But as has also been brought up, even failed chargers were at one point "charging", so to have been "charging" means you, at some point in the past, charged.

Ergo, failed chargers, RAW, should be getting their pile in and consolidate and Jormungandr should lose it's ability the moment it declares its charge, as part four of the charge phase section tells us anyone that declares a charge is at that point now a charging unit.

Except German ones, apparently.

It really needs an FAQ, I think we're all in consensus.

This is very interesting, does anyone have the English Digital BRB?

What does it say in there? (they have been different in the past)