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Is most eldar shooting on a 3+ or 4+?

Because most armys out there have their rank and file hitting on a 4+ normally. Which means the OP statment that space marines are not hitting anything on their -1 is nonsense.

If eldar are normally bs 4+ then the stratagem being the same cost without the penalty makes a lot of sense. For the same price you get the same chance to hit.

12" range is odd..... But why would anyone have a deepstrike unit they are not placing as close as possible?

the_scotsman wrote:
Space Marine players: vocally whiny whenever their list isn't both the first, AND the best, rules available.

Never mind that they just got their whole model range updated for the second time in a decade while most other factions use fourth Ed and older sculpts. Never mind that Forgeworld exists to create them models. That they got, as usual, the first codex and have two more upcoming. And furthermore that they've had several of the dominant meta lists in the still emerging 8th meta.

If space Marines don't have THE best version of EVERY rule at ALL TIMES, you will hear about how utterly unfair it is and how everything needs to stop until the Marines are buffed and made the best again.

You forgot that they also need all the options to be the best ever too. Having just two hilariously OP builds obviously means there's room for improvement.

I now could just hoping that my Space Wolf get some traits later this year like the +1 Str on the charge or the Blood Claws get to fight twice, etc, or sone stratagem gives advance and charge........

Girthquake wrote:
Have the salamanders got any better or worse with the codex.....looking for a small side army to run and have always been intrigued by them

Their chapter tactics are really good, quite a worthwhile set of rules, imo. It favors smaller units of infantry, but thats how many people take their squads anyways.

Can't say about their Vulkan He'stan though.

MarsNZ wrote:SM dex not the auto-win you wanted? No need to cry, your next big release is probably only 6 months away.

Yikes dude, show me on the doll where the Space Marine player touched you. A faction can have a constant avalanche of new units, but if none of them are competitive, it’s still valid to opine that the faction’s Codex is weak in a competitive environment.

More to the point, if you’re not using Guilliman the Marine Codex isn’t very competitive. I’ll give the GK that theirs is worse since they essentially lose a lot of options and don’t gain many. They are, however, oddly effective against other Codex Space Marine armies due to Smite-spam. Other than that though, I think all Codexes so far are stronger than vanilla Marines.

TwinPoleTheory wrote:

 Galas wrote:

My point about Lieutenants wasn't Primaris vs Non-Primaris (I just want the buff, Primaris can take a hike), it was the fact that they are exponentially better than CSM Exalted Champions (works for ranged and melee, 2/1 in an HQ slot). As for the previous argument that CSM have cultists as screens, I would argue that 1 Patrol detachment of AM nets you a Commissar and as many Conscripts as you want, for pretty much the same price. I'll call that a wash, especially since my choices for improving Cultist morale involve either Abaddon ( ) or a Dark Apostle on babysitting duty.

I disagree with you wholeheartedly on the Lieutenant. I would commit bloody murder to swap the Liuetenant’s buff for the Champion’s. The Champion allows rerolls of *all* rolls. Do you realise how powerful that is? Yes, it can’t be applied to shooting units, but on assault units the Champion’s buff will typically be three times as powerful as the Lieutenant’s (re-rolling 1, 2 and 3 on a 4+ to-wound vs re-rolling just 1s). It has the potential to be as much as five times as powerful (an edge case of rerolling sixes to wound, but still true) and at the very worst (rerolling 2s, which is vanishingly rare for most units) it’s still equal. Combine a Champion with a Dark Apostle and you will reroll *literally every single failed attack dice*. Put that on 20 berserkers in a Spartan and... I can’t think of anything that would survive. Titans maybe. The Lieutenant is a weaker buff applied more broadly; personally I’d prefer the much stronger buff that I can build around being narrowly focused.

Also, “Imperium can ally in Conscripts, so Cultists are a wash” isn’t fair. We’re comparing Codex to Codex; if you can bring in units from a stronger Codex to fill the gaps, you might as well go whole hog and just play with the stronger Codex (IG).

the_scotsman wrote:
Space Marine players: vocally whiny whenever their list isn't both the first, AND the best, rules available.

Never mind that they just got their whole model range updated for the second time in a decade while most other factions use fourth Ed and older sculpts. Never mind that Forgeworld exists to create them models. That they got, as usual, the first codex and have two more upcoming. And furthermore that they've had several of the dominant meta lists in the still emerging 8th meta.

If space Marines don't have THE best version of EVERY rule at ALL TIMES, you will hear about how utterly unfair it is and how everything needs to stop until the Marines are buffed and made the best again.

I'm telling you as an AdMech player and Necron player they have it bad. I just GOT a codex too.

Well, I guess since the "worst" codex in the game is still winning tournaments on a reasonable rate, the game must be fairly balanced [/s]

Don't worry everyone, once the Blood Angels codex comes out no one will ever talk about the SM codex being the worst - BA has held that spot for at LEAST two editions now.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Don't worry everyone, once the Blood Angels codex comes out no one will ever talk about the SM codex being the worst - BA has held that spot for at LEAST two editions now.

The fact that it's being called the worst at all is a load of crap.

the_scotsman wrote:
Space Marine players: vocally whiny whenever their list isn't both the first, AND the best, rules available.

Only the sore losers among us SM players are like this in my experience. It is also my experience that the better non-SM Codeces such as the Xenos races are, the better the games are. Of course nobody needs to be as powerful as the Demi-Companies of 7th Ed. Space Marines or as overpowered as late-7th Edition Tau, but still.

 IllumiNini wrote:

 Frankenberry wrote:
Don't worry everyone, once the Blood Angels codex comes out no one will ever talk about the SM codex being the worst - BA has held that spot for at LEAST two editions now.

The fact that it's being called the worst at all is a load of crap.

the_scotsman wrote:
Space Marine players: vocally whiny whenever their list isn't both the first, AND the best, rules available.

Only the sore losers among us SM players are like this in my experience. It is also my experience that the better non-SM Codeces such as the Xenos races are, the better the games are. Of course nobody needs to be as powerful as the Demi-Companies of 7th Ed. Space Marines or as overpowered as late-7th Edition Tau, but still.

Do you actually play BA?

 Frankenberry wrote:
Do you actually play BA?

Let me rephrase - I meant to say that the the SM Codex (not the BA Codex) being the worst codex is a load of crap.

I think what nails the marine codex is, now everyone is getting Obsec back, but who gets the objective between the two Obsec units depends on the number of model. Given that marine is naturally low model count and how weak T4 Sv3+ models are, they cannot even play around the mission well.

I'm more annoyed that, on top of vehicles not getting Chapter Tactics (though that would be silly on Ultramarines vehicles), is apparently even Tyranids are getting a Grinding Advance rule on the Tyrannofex. It wouldn't have killed GW to throw Chaos Marines and Loyalist Scum a bone to Predators.

Ruminations while eating my lunch: this edition massively favours hordes over elite armies. Space Marine infantry of any stripe are non-competitive owing to lacking durability in an era of save modifiers, Smite Spam, and no efficient anti-horde weaponry. But Codex Space Marines still features in a lot of competitive lists essentially as a vehicle for Guilliman to work with more dangerous Imperial books.

My proposition? Give every single Space Marine infantry/biker/non-vehicle the +1 A and +1 W that Primaris Space Marines get. Make no points increase to any of them (unless they prove to be suddenly dominant in which case increment up the points by minimal amounts, but given the performance of Primaris competitively I’d wager they wouldn’t).

This makes Marines twice as durable against the currently very efficient massed small-arms fire, halves their current over-susceptibility to Mortal Wounds/Smite Spam, and gives them a little more punch in close combat without making them into monsters (Tactical Marines would double in combat prowess from poor to... slightly less poor, while dedicated melee Marines with multiple attacks see a smaller percentage increase). And yet it offers them no protection against multi-damage anti-heavy-infantry weapons like autocannons that are actually designed to kill them.

You would need to give Primaris a little extra something to make them worthwhile - personally I’d just give them a points drop into line with the rest of the newly-upgraded marines and only differentiate by weapon loadout, but if GW wants them to still be super-special, maybe an extra point of movement and an additional attack to simulate their upgrades?

And then nerf-nuke Guilliman’s points cost from orbit. Keep him just as powerful, but make him so expensive that his inclusion for an army is purely for narrative or the fun of fielding a Primarch. Like an all-Dreadnought or all-Terminator army, a fun and powerful option, but not something that will see the light of day at the top tables of tournaments.

Suddenly the people who play non-Guilliman Space Marines don’t have to complain about their Codex being underpowered to people who have just come off the back of a tournament where every player has ‘Space Marines’ in the form of Guilliman. Win-win.

 Xenomancers wrote:
as long as you don't bring guilliman to the table

Eldar strategem is no better than marine one as long as you don't use it.

It's just odd that you purposefully and knowingly exclude the OP part of your codex out of equasion.

 koooaei wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
as long as you don't bring guilliman to the table

Eldar strategem is no better than marine one as long as you don't use it.

It's just odd that you purposefully and knowingly exclude the OP part of your codex out of equasion.

But shows it's not really codex: Space marines but codex: Guilliman. How well non-Guillimann armies do? Salamanders? White scars? Iron hands?

This guy gets one stratagem, compares it to one other stratagem, then submits it as "proof" SM have tge worst codex.
On another note, Militarium Tempestus have the exact same stratagem as that Space Marines one except it ontly costs one CP. That can be justified because it only works on scions and taurox primes, but still.

WTF... Eldar should be better at DSing than SM, different armies have different tricks...

"Hey look my army that not specialized in this 1 rule has it worth than this other army that specializes in that 1 rule, i think i got screwed over, let me QQ".

Yes Gman out shines everything in the book, but its still very solid I honestly am only mad about SM-WS, they screwed them over IMO, melee bikers that have 3 guns each and only.... 1 melee weapon per unit... OK yeah let me get right on that.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
WTF... Eldar should be better at DSing than SM, different armies have different tricks...

Hrm, deep striking armies are a pretty deep schtick with Space Marines, the whole "drop pod assault" thing and teleporting terminators and whatnot is all pretty iconic Space Marine deep-strikey stuff.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
WTF... Eldar should be better at DSing than SM, different armies have different tricks...

Hrm, deep striking armies are a pretty deep schtick with Space Marines, the whole "drop pod assault" thing and teleporting terminators and whatnot is all pretty iconic Space Marine deep-strikey stuff.

True that. From fluff point of view marines would be mostly doing shock attacks by waves of drop pods and thunderhawks. Ground war is realm of IG.

As broken as gladius was that's the most fluff-correct marine composition ever...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
WTF... Eldar should be better at DSing than SM, different armies have different tricks...

Hrm, deep striking armies are a pretty deep schtick with Space Marines, the whole "drop pod assault" thing and teleporting terminators and whatnot is all pretty iconic Space Marine deep-strikey stuff.

Though you still have drop pods.
And terminators.


The stratagem just lets you "deep strike" things you really shouldn't, like sternguard without a pod.

123ply wrote:
This guy gets one stratagem, compares it to one other stratagem, then submits it as "proof" SM have the worst codex.

such logic, much quality argument haha

 Xenomancers wrote:
-Only raven guard can use the infiltrate just before the beginning of the game stratagem.
-Any Eldar craft-world can use the webway portal.

From a Vanilla Marines standpoint, that makes a lot of sense. Why would let along should any other Chapter (assuming they're not Raven Guard or a Successor Chapter thereof) have access to this? It's like saying Ultramarines should Ignore Cover when shooting because Imperial Fists can.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Then we have Chapter tactics rule which only affects infantry bikers and dreads - Not our tanks...which are actually the only thing that is competitive in our codex. Which is also sad. Every other army? Unlimitted access to their army traits. The only thing the marines have is Guilliman. Is chapter approved going to fix all this?

There are strategems which only target Infantry or another specific type of unit, but the Chapter Tactics themselves apply to all unit types (since all models and units from tanks to bikes to infantry and all the rest of them) have either the '< Chapter >' keyword or a specific Chapter named in their key words, meaning all units in the codex benefit from Chapter Tactics. So.... You got this fundamentally wrong.

 IllumiNini wrote:
There are strategems which only target Infantry or another specific type of unit, but the Chapter Tactics themselves apply to all unit types (since all models and units from tanks to bikes to infantry and all the rest of them) have either the '< Chapter >' keyword or a specific Chapter named in their key words, meaning all units in the codex benefit from Chapter Tactics. So.... You got this fundamentally wrong.

Page 195 of the Space Marine Codex 8th Edition, 4th line after the Chapter Tactics header (1st non italicized line): If your army is Battle-forged, all Infantry, Biker and Dreadnought units in a Space Marines Detachment gain a Chapter Tactic...

So actually, you got this fundamentally wrong.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Worst compared to what?
What DG or GK have of comparable?

Are you joking?

DG is the BEST codex by far

1) Walking dead - strategem that basically gives you free points, lots of them, use cloud of flies on you Pox Walkers and have their starting number of 10 grow to a 100 in a few turns you will take to reach your opponent.

Up close with strategems and psychic powers they can hit on 2+ and wound Leeman Russes on 3+ (2+ if you have a Mortarion).

2) Mortarion + Deathshroud

3) 20 Plague Marines + cloud of flies to get close + Biologus Putrifier, then followed by 20D6 grenade attacks that do mortal wounds on a 5+ with rerolls since it's a plague weapon, can kill a Titan in 1 go

4) Demon Princes, best of them, jacked up with spells and relics and paired with their brothers from Chaos Demons index can wreck anything


A Detachment of cheap strategem points and a detachment of Death Guard is the most game breaking combo. You can have +9CP with under 650 points from renegade heretics, leaving plenty for your killy DG



Now Marine codex compared to that is utter garbage, nothing even comes close and guardsmen, which in any other case seem OP, in case they're vs DG, they actually end up increasing your points by the end game

tneva82 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
WTF... Eldar should be better at DSing than SM, different armies have different tricks...

Hrm, deep striking armies are a pretty deep schtick with Space Marines, the whole "drop pod assault" thing and teleporting terminators and whatnot is all pretty iconic Space Marine deep-strikey stuff.

True that. From fluff point of view marines would be mostly doing shock attacks by waves of drop pods and thunderhawks. Ground war is realm of IG.

As broken as gladius was that's the most fluff-correct marine composition ever...

There is a difference in types of DSing tho I didnt mean to say SM isnt a DS heavy army, i meant it in "alternative DS methods" like WWP's or Warp Jumps etc..., If DE gets a 3 CP WWP to place on the table for infinite DS use, who Eldar players be mad? Maybe but they shouldnt b.c it fits DE play style/Fluff.

Eldar is better at Warping than SM, so the CP for them should be a bit better, as DE should be the best.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, I guess since the "worst" codex in the game is still winning tournaments on a reasonable rate, the game must be fairly balanced [/s]

Cause of Gulliman, that's basically it, Ultramarines with their Primarch, other than that marines are the least competitive codex (of course we're not speaking of Grey Knights, they don't exist and so are even worse)

Frankly, if you absolutely need a crutch like Roboute in order to get a decent result with a SM army in a tournament I fear the fault doesn't lie with the codex: I think it's more reasonable to assume that you're not as good at 40k and SM armies as you'd like to believe.

 IllumiNini wrote:

There are strategems which only target Infantry or another specific type of unit, but the Chapter Tactics themselves apply to all unit types (since all models and units from tanks to bikes to infantry and all the rest of them) have either the '< Chapter >' keyword or a specific Chapter named in their key words, meaning all units in the codex benefit from Chapter Tactics. So.... You got this fundamentally wrong.

Go back and read your codex again. Chapter tactics apply to infantry and dreads only. You got this fundamentally wrong.

We've had I think six codexes released so far and the Space Marine one isn't even the worst out of them, It's a bit unreasonable to be making definitive statements like that based on selective data.

Eligius wrote:
Frankly, if you absolutely need a crutch like Roboute in order to get a decent result with a SM army in a tournament I fear the fault doesn't lie with the codex: I think it's more reasonable to assume that you're not as good at 40k and SM armies as you'd like to believe.

So from that we assume that nobody in the world is good at 40k and plays SM...Hmmmm....