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I guess. The baal pred would have to get a lot cheaper for me to consider using it. Right now, its just much easier to knock out the guns.

Bharring wrote:
In some cases, it can be argued that, SM vehicle vs CWE vehicle, the CWE vehicle needs the Attribute to stack up (LasPred vs BL Falcon). In other cases, clearly not true (Hemlock Wraithfighter). I actually think the Pred is good without CT, and the Falcon is a little less than good without the attribute. I'd be fine either way.

On that point, why are we comparing the Falcon to the Predator? The Predator is a battle tank, the Falcon is a transport / infantry support APC. People keep saying the Falcon needs Attributes to have equivalent firepower to the Predator, blatantly ignoring that the Falcon has a transport capacity. If the Falcon is comparably efficient as being a battle tank as a Predator is without even considering the transport capacity, then the Falcon is undercosted (or the Predator overcosted).

Shouldn’t we be comparing the Falcon to the twin-Lascannon Razorback? They have the same transport capacity, similar battlefield role and comparable firepower. Equivalently, shouldn’t we compare the Wave Serpent to the Rhino (again, similar transport capacity and role but dramatically increased firepower) and the Predator to the Fire Prism? Though, the Fire Prism might be more conceptually matched to the Vindicator, but comparing anything to the Vindicator if just mean to the poor little siege tank this edition...

By that metric, don’t the CWE vehicles come out on top, even without Attributes?

kombatwombat wrote:

Bharring wrote:
In some cases, it can be argued that, SM vehicle vs CWE vehicle, the CWE vehicle needs the Attribute to stack up (LasPred vs BL Falcon). In other cases, clearly not true (Hemlock Wraithfighter). I actually think the Pred is good without CT, and the Falcon is a little less than good without the attribute. I'd be fine either way.

On that point, why are we comparing the Falcon to the Predator? The Predator is a battle tank, the Falcon is a transport / infantry support APC. People keep saying the Falcon needs Attributes to have equivalent firepower to the Predator, blatantly ignoring that the Falcon has a transport capacity. If the Falcon is comparably efficient as being a battle tank as a Predator is without even considering the transport capacity, then the Falcon is undercosted (or the Predator overcosted).

Shouldn’t we be comparing the Falcon to the twin-Lascannon Razorback? They have the same transport capacity, similar battlefield role and comparable firepower. Equivalently, shouldn’t we compare the Wave Serpent to the Rhino (again, similar transport capacity and role but dramatically increased firepower) and the Predator to the Fire Prism? Though, the Fire Prism might be more conceptually matched to the Vindicator, but comparing anything to the Vindicator if just mean to the poor little siege tank this edition...

By that metric, don’t the CWE vehicles come out on top, even without Attributes?

Because of the fly keyword - in most cases yes. The fly keyword and 14" mobility. It's like they get these things for free and they get the army trait.

The more appropriate comparison to the Predator would be the Prism, which itself has a Grinding Advance rule and shoots at the same BS. I'm unsure if the weapon stats changed in the codex though.

Look, on the predator thing, I'm prepared to accept that idea that marines don't get the best tanks, or even average tanks.

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The more appropriate comparison to the Predator would be the Prism, which itself has a Grinding Advance rule and shoots at the same BS. I'm unsure if the weapon stats changed in the codex though.

Not a good comparison. The prism is a multi-role tool. It has 3 firing modes that specialize at different targets. It's middle firing mode is the most comparable being 2d3 str 9 ap-3 d3 damage shots with 60 inch range where the preditor clearly wins out. however the low focus mode gives you 2d6 str 6 ap-3 3 shots that deal 1 damage. So this thing can clear out MEQ or it can help finish of tanks or something. Honestly it wouldn't be that great if not for the stratagem linked fire which needs 2 prisms to work. For 1 command point 2 prisms can get guilliman buff - when combined with it's versatility it becomes the perfect tool for a balanced army.

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

But that also costs a lot of points. And, is a very dubious advantage outside of list tailoring.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

If customization mattered that much, Chosen and Sternguard would be gotten way more use than actually done.

If marines could switch out weapons AFTER army deployment, THAT would be a thing.

The Wave Serpent is closer to the Razorback than the Rhino - in both points and function. Twin LC Razorback is 110. Twin BL Serpent is in the 150 range. The serpent twice the transport cap and better durability. But 2xLC is much better than 2xBL.

It's a hard comparision because the Serpent is a MBT and a Transport, and pays for both, whereas the Razorback is halfway between the two, and pays for being halfway between the two. But the Serpent is nothing like the Rhino in that it's an MBT, and nothing like the Pred in that it's a Transport.

Fire Prism might be the better analogy to the QuadLas Pred. As shown, it's much worse at doing the QuadLas pred's job. But better at other jobs. Also, the Prism's version of 'grinding advance' is only the ROF change, it still suffers for moving and firing just like the Pred.

The Falcon isn't benefitting from both the -1 to hit for Alaitoc and for being an APC - it can only carry small Aspect Warrior squads, not large ones, or Wraiths, or Guardians. And the math came down to the Pred having 50% better shooting for 33% more points. That's not a small amount. Stronger gun. More of them. Longer range. Fly and movement are nice, but it needs to be closer. Outside 36", the Pred has more than double the firepower.

(The Serpent does seem a little overtuned, though.)

"(The Serpent does seem a little overtuned, though.)"

You mean undercosted.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

so instead of 20 flavours of ice cream I can choose from 50 types of dirt? More does not equal better. Especially when “more” is a stat line of 3+ and 4 and bolters.

I don't know how Marines can have the worst tanks compared to GK, CSM, and Nids though - and the only other dexes out are AM and CWE. AM, maybe.

CWE:
The Serpent seems better overall, but in the same class as Razorbacks
The Prism is a sidegrade (unless you need 2+ to shoot the same deathstar or superheavy) from the Pred - worse at that job, better at others.
The Nightspinner isn't really taken (comparable to Whirlwind)
The Falcon is slightly better shooting than the LC Razorback for a lot more points, but is faster and a few more W. But at nearly half again the price.
CWE has nothing to compare to the LR
CWE has nothing to compare to the Rhino
WWP is slightly better than the Drop Pod, but I'm not sure that one should count.

So, (1) Marine tanks are worst than, at most, 2 books. And (2), that's only true about CWE if you only consider the Serpent, and nothing else.


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I don't know how Marines cost so many more points. CWE has nothing, vehicle-wise, as cheap as Razorbacks or Rhinos.

Bremon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

so instead of 20 flavours of ice cream I can choose from 50 types of dirt?

On your way to joining Xenomancers in the Halls of Hyperbole?

Y'all can argue against the value all you want, but the fact remains. Space Marines have more choices, and more often than not, more choices for those choices. You have a greater ability to customize your army to fit your chosen strategy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

If customization mattered that much, Chosen and Sternguard would be gotten way more use than actually done.

You mean they might not be taken because there are a lot more choices to choose from too. And often choices within those units.

Have you seen a tFex? It's a 14 wound mega beast with t8 3+ - with 4 CC attack that deal 2 damage. Can move and shoot with no penalty - when it stand still it shoots twice giving it 6 BS4 str 10 ap-3 d6 damage shots. That is what I call a tank bro. Just for SNG's it also gets 8 more str 5 shots at 18 inch range.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

so instead of 20 flavours of ice cream I can choose from 50 types of dirt?

On your way to joining Xenomancers in the Halls of Hyperbole?

Y'all can argue against the value all you want, but the fact remains. Space Marines have more choices, and more often than not, more choices for those choices. You have a greater ability to customize your army to fit your chosen strategy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

If customization mattered that much, Chosen and Sternguard would be gotten way more use than actually done.

You mean they might not be taken because there are a lot more choices to choose from too. And often choices within those units.

When standard methods of persuasion don't work - hyperbole is the only option. What does it matter if I can take a melta gun if I have a flamer on a unit once the game starts - it's not a tactical decision you can make between the two choices (unless you can see the future and know what units you are going up against every battle) not to mention in a tournament you can't even change your army up. So it matters not.

Yes it does. Martel agreed with me at one point that list-building is part of the game.

Having a greater flexibility in a part of the game is ... well, a good thing, surely?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes it does. Martel agreed with me at one point that list-building is part of the game.

Having a greater flexibility in a part of the game is ... well, a good thing, surely?

If a unit is flexible once it's on the table yes. A marine unit that you have given plasma in list building phase does not make the unit flexible on the table. There is a great difference here.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes it does. Martel agreed with me at one point that list-building is part of the game.

Having a greater flexibility in a part of the game is ... well, a good thing, surely?

If a unit is flexible once it's on the table yes. A marine unit that you have given plasma in list building phase does not make the unit flexible on the table. There is a great difference here.

Right but there is far more to the game than what's on the table - listbuilding is part of the game.

Hyperbole defined. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

In a serious discussion, hyperbole is a very ineffective tool for convincing anyone but that your point has Merrit.

Greater flexibility is a great benefit that marine and imperial players constantly downplay.

Bharring wrote:
The Wave Serpent is closer to the Razorback than the Rhino - in both points and function. Twin LC Razorback is 110. Twin BL Serpent is in the 150 range. The serpent twice the transport cap and better durability. But 2xLC is much better than 2xBL.

It's a hard comparision because the Serpent is a MBT and a Transport, and pays for both, whereas the Razorback is halfway between the two, and pays for being halfway between the two. But the Serpent is nothing like the Rhino in that it's an MBT, and nothing like the Pred in that it's a Transport.

Fire Prism might be the better analogy to the QuadLas Pred. As shown, it's much worse at doing the QuadLas pred's job. But better at other jobs. Also, the Prism's version of 'grinding advance' is only the ROF change, it still suffers for moving and firing just like the Pred.

The Falcon isn't benefitting from both the -1 to hit for Alaitoc and for being an APC - it can only carry small Aspect Warrior squads, not large ones, or Wraiths, or Guardians. And the math came down to the Pred having 50% better shooting for 33% more points. That's not a small amount. Stronger gun. More of them. Longer range. Fly and movement are nice, but it needs to be closer. Outside 36", the Pred has more than double the firepower.

(The Serpent does seem a little overtuned, though.)

1. You don't need to move a lot because of range, unless the opponent literally moves everything out of sight, seeing as it has a gun for both Anti-Infantry and Anti-Tank.
2. Rate of fire is the most important aspect OF Grinding Advance. It's gonna be the generic term for a giant firing platform firing twice in certain conditions after the Tyrannofex got its own version. I know you're being nitpicky on that, but the generic term is gonna stay for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Bremon wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

so instead of 20 flavours of ice cream I can choose from 50 types of dirt?

On your way to joining Xenomancers in the Halls of Hyperbole?

Y'all can argue against the value all you want, but the fact remains. Space Marines have more choices, and more often than not, more choices for those choices. You have a greater ability to customize your army to fit your chosen strategy.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

But what are marines getting in return? A dubiously useful stat line? Maybe if they make primaris cheap enough with Chapter Approved, then maybe some kind of niche will form.

Waaay more customization.

If customization mattered that much, Chosen and Sternguard would be gotten way more use than actually done.

You mean they might not be taken because there are a lot more choices to choose from too. And often choices within those units.

Which means the specialized units are taken more. Hmmmmmmmm...

Neither platform needs to move usually. Just making sure people aren't mistaking the Prism for having abilities it doesn't - that's been very common in this thread.

Also, aren't you usually arguing that generalists who are worse at a given role than specialists are useless? So here we have a Prism which is worse at any given role than the SM counterpart, because it's a generalist, and you're complaining the SM counterparts can't compete?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yes it does. Martel agreed with me at one point that list-building is part of the game.

Having a greater flexibility in a part of the game is ... well, a good thing, surely?

Of course it is. A lot of the time, it's THE most important part. Unfortunately, a lot of marine choices are false choices. That is probably true for many codices, but when we are listing flexibility one of the key features of marines, the false choices sting a lot more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Bharring wrote:
Neither platform needs to move usually. Just making sure people aren't mistaking the Prism for having abilities it doesn't - that's been very common in this thread.

Also, aren't you usually arguing that generalists who are worse at a given role than specialists are useless? So here we have a Prism which is worse at any given role than the SM counterpart, because it's a generalist, and you're complaining the SM counterparts can't compete?

There are degrees of "worse at". The fire prism's ability to function as a generalist solution on a turn by turn basis is superior to arming marines to kinda shoot, kinda do CC, and kinda be durable. At least, in my view.

 sennacherib wrote:
Hyperbole defined. exaggerated statements or claims not meant to be taken literally.

In a serious discussion, hyperbole is a very ineffective tool for convincing anyone but that your point has Merrit.

Greater flexibility is a great benefit that marine and imperial players constantly downplay.

The key word is exaggeration. That is all hyperbole is. Many of my claims are exaggerated. It's the only way anyone listens anymore. Much like the title of this thread. Do you think it would have gone on for 25 plus pages of discussion if the title was...Space marines - possibily the second or third worst codex in the game? Nope. There is a lot of truth to my claims though.

Truth depends on facts that can be supported.
You should really change the title of the thread to how SM players want to be more like eldar. Then it would be more appropriate.

As it is, I haven’t seen one argument made yet that persuades me that marines need another buff. Besides they are getting their points reduced in CA on all the stuff that isn’t selling.

There is, perhaps, a difference between "Flexible" and "Generalist."

Take the Fire Prism for example. I would say it's "flexible" because, while it can do both, there's an opportunity cost for one or the other (e.g. the focused antitank beam can never get as many hits as the dispersed beam could, but using the dispersed beam means you don't have the good statline of the anti-tank beam).

That's flexibility.

Another example is the Adeptus Mechanicus Kastelan Robot: It's good at shooting, but awful at assault (Protector protocol) or good at assault but literally cannot shoot (Conqueror protocol). It also has a generalist option, where it's okay at both (Aegis protocol).

The Space Marine does not "turn off" his assault to shoot, nor does he "turn off" his shooting to assault. He is adequate at both all the time, rather than having the flexibility to be a specialist in one or the other at any given moment.

Generalists, yes, are bad. It's why the Aegis protocol is essentially never used by the Kastelan robots - being a generalist is worse than being a specialist.

Flexibility is good, but generalism isn't.

Only if you define "Dead-center of the currently-released Codecies at the time I post this" as the merit in the statement "SM is the worst codex in the game!".

Hyperbole is a useful rhetorical tool, to shake things up. But when it turns out that your excessive statement is about how bad the *exact middle* has it, the argument gets rightly dismissed.

I see no positive merit in the original statement. It's like complaining you got the least food, to point out you didn't get enough, when you got the exactly average amount.

Bharring wrote:
Only if you define "Dead-center of the currently-released Codecies at the time I post this" as the merit in the statement "SM is the worst codex in the game!".

Hyperbole is a useful rhetorical tool, to shake things up. But when it turns out that your excessive statement is about how bad the *exact middle* has it, the argument gets rightly dismissed.

I see no positive merit in the original statement. It's like complaining you got the least food, to point out you didn't get enough, when you got the exactly average amount.

They aren't - they are the bottom - gk is the only codex army that is statistically worse at this point.

Wait so was that more hyperbole or are we back to wilfully ignoring data?

*cough* Admech?