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Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

I love the Ultramarine Roman Aesthetic. I hate that 90% of the models with ROman Aesthetic have Omega Symbols in all parts of their armour, something that limits me to use Ultramarine things to make my own Roman-Lookin Space Marines.

But well. My Chaos Army is lead by a Daemon Prince that in the Horus Heresy was a Ultramarine Sargeant called Brutus the Short (Because he had a problem becoming a Space Marine and he was just barely higher than a normal human). And all the Praetorian Guard of his chaos horde are Roman-Looking Corrupted Ultramarines.

Personally Cato Sicarius is a favourite of mine, as others have said, he represents the darker shade of Ultramarines, making them less perfect.

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

Unflawed.. It's like people don't actually look to the lore and just the parody versions that people produce.

You want Unflawed you look at the Space Wolves, who never lose (up until recently) and can even flip off the Inquisition all they want with both mutation, heresy, and rebellion while murdering Grey Knights.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

Unflawed.. It's like people don't actually look to the lore and just the parody versions that people produce.

You want Unflawed you look at the Space Wolves, who never lose (up until recently) and can even flip off the Inquisition all they want with both mutation, heresy, and rebellion while murdering Grey Knights.

Which is totally awsome btw!

Let's agree that space wolves are ridiculous though...

wow, many more responses than I expected. I don't think the haters have made a very good case for themselves. It very much seems like people hate them because of group think, not really any coherent reason.

One thing that I find funny is that when people are polled on what chapters they like Imperial Fists are always in the top 3 if not number 1 while Ultras are usually on the lower end. It's funny because the biggest complaint thrown against the ultras is that they are too basic, but Fists IMO are the most basic as far as aesthetics go. At least the Ultras got the Roman thing going on, Fists are straight vanilla in their appearance. Vanilla is fine for me, I don't think it's boring, but it is strange for a community that is determined to be as non-vanilla as possible to love the Imperial Fists and hate the Ultramarines.

No one has really addressed my first point that the Ultras are basically the same as every other chapter. They have their niche but maybe it isn't as played up as Space Wolves or Dark Angels.

The problem with Imperial Fists is that their "thing" was stolen by the Black Templars that are much more interesting, and then you have Crimson Fists that are Imperial Fists but with a more interesting background and situation as a Chapter.

People are just mad that their special snowflake Unknown-Founding Doesn't-Follow-The-Codex Chapter doesn't get as much done. I say that as someone that doesn't like them either but that's because of the Roman theme and bling they all got.

People hate Ultramarines due to over-exposure. I hate them for that reason, plus I find them generally uninteresting. They are intended for newer players to gravitate towards. Also, I find space marines in general kind of uninteresting anyways.

I think they were seeing a revival before the 3 tons of Gulliman lists flooded the meta. Now they've become associated with that (somewhat op) model and will have to reendure the smurf comments until gulliman is adjusted.

I always disagreed with GW''s policy of giving just one chapter all of the super snowflakes. Aside from a couple of characters in the wolves and angels if you wanted to play "normal" marines you didn't have any special characters until, IIRC, mid to late 3rd ed.

the_scotsman wrote:I don't disagree that Space Wolves are horribly written Marty Stues. There are two things that make me dislike them less:

1) Viking Marines can be a pretty cool look. Some of their stuff, like the Axe/Shield dread, and generally speaking anything that isn't a giant cartoon wolf, is fairly neat looking.

Again, I can't say you're wrong, but I can say that's subjective. Many people also, as this thread shows, have a thing for the Ultramarine aesthetic. I personally think the Roman aspects of the Ultramarines look very cool, but that's me.

2) most of their special characters are norse gods in space marine form. That's a neat schtick. Some are admittedly just "commander guy with a name" but Thor in terminator armor, Loki in power armor, Odin as a space wizard are kind of nifty looking.

Are they really? Aside from the Loki/Lukas argument, I don't really see a Thor or Odin connection beyond "they're space vikings and this one has a hammer! It's thor! This one is a magic user with a crow - it's Odin!". Those seem more like generic things to me, more of a coincidence than a conscious decision.
Besides, I'd say it's no more true than comparing Calgar to Caesar, or Cassius to Crassus and Tigurius to Pompey because they're his seconds-in-command.

By contrast, the Ultramarine characters are:

-A Captain, BUT CAPTAINIER!
-A librarian, BUT LIBRARIANER!
-A chaplain, BUT CHAPLAINIER!
-A tank commander, BUT TANK COMMANDERIER!
-A scout, but SCOUTIER!

And these haven't been issues with special characters in any other army? I beg to differ.

Snikrot? A Kommando that's Kommando-ier.
Bastonne? A Veteran who's Veteran-ier.
Njall? A Rune Priest who's Rune Priest-ier.
Old One Eye? A Carnifex who's Carnifex-ier.
Pask? A Tank Commander who's Tank Commander-ier.
Etc etc.

Most special characters are just "Role+1". At least not all the Ultramarine ones are "the best in the universe". Cassius is just very tough. Nothing about him being the best. Sicarius has lots of wins. He's also suffered some big losses, and is a good character as mentioned later. Chronus is just a named Tank Commander - when he was first around, anyone could take him in their list.

-A dude sitting at home and crying into his powerfists because he's been replaced with a newer, sexier Marty Stu

If you're going to sin Calgar, why aren't we sinning Azrael, Dante, Helbrecht, etc etc? Besides, we see that Calgar is developing as a character from Guilliman's arrival.

-The Alpha Marty Stu, the bestest bestest best at everything!

Come on, that's not true at all. Guilliman wasn't even the best strategist, that was Lion. He was just the most logistical, and due to this could make his Legion largest, lose less men, and set up more worlds into the Imperial network. Sanguinius and Horus were far more "bestest at everything".
The only reason Guilliman is so powerful in 40k is because he's the only Primarch around - no-one else is on his level. If another Primarch were to show up, Guilliman would be the best leader, but that's about it - Russ or Lion would make a better field commander.

As to "why is choosing the preset character in an RPG game a problem"... I mean, it's not, theoretically. It's just kind of...limited. The distinction between this game system and others is that you actually build your soldiers, paint them however you like, limitless possibilities (at least, if you include the ability to sculpt your own stuff, go to third party bits, etc). Going with Ultramarines is a little like taking a tactical squad box and very carefully and meticulously replicating every wargear and pose combination shown on the box, not wanting to deviate from the standard in any way.

So no-one should play Ultramarines because they're the ones on the box, and if you just happen to want to have blue marines, or actually like UM fluff, you're limiting yourself?
I don't agree.

If all models on the fronts of boxes were changed to Imperial Fists, would Imperial Fists become the next "hated on" army, because it's just "limiting" to paint them as Imperial Fists?
How about Scions? If someone paints their Scions as the Deltic Lions, then they're limiting themselves?
If someone paints their Dark Angels green, instead of the colour of the Angels of Absolution, then they're limiting themselves?
Just because someone paints their models a certain colour, that's up to them. It doesn't mean they're limiting themselves in any way.

Someone had to be on the fronts of boxes. Do I think it should ALWAYS be Ultramarines? No - I think that units should have different schemes depending on the unit and which Chapter "specialises" with them (aka, Bikes should be painted White Scars, Devastators in Imperial Fist colours, Assault Marines in Blood Angel schemes, etc etc), but that doesn't mean that UM are bad.

And of course, that is ignoring the assumption that people who play Ultramarines only do it because they don't want to deviate at all from the norm. Because ALL (or hell, even MOST) Ultramarine players do that. /s

Ultramarines are the default version of the default faction, and are therefore the lowest possible bar for creativity in 40k.

I think it was Jervis who said quite some time ago that one of the Big Four Chapters (BA, DA, SW, and UM) had to be the poster child, and they just chose UM. If the Imperial Fists were chosen instead, would that change the hate toward UM? Is this just a "they're popular so I'll hate on them to be edgyyyy" thing?

Frankly, I've seen Ultramarines done in ways that can be lacklustre (my own, probably), and others which blow any "interesting" homebrew scheme out of the water by sheer creativity. Just being Ultramarine doesn't mean you're bland at all, and to say so is quite ignorant of the wider hobby.

And I don't particularly care about "30k makes them interesting" - to me, that's kind of analogous to "the plot of Phantom Menace makes perfect sense if you just read the expanded universe novels! Also Darth Maul is a super interesting character!"

Well, except the EU is non-canon. 30k is very much canon. If you want to ignore perfectly good canon, you're more that welcome, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist purely because you don't want to read it.

Madoch1 wrote:In all honesty, I don't hate them, they're just boring. There is no edge of sour taste to them as a faction. No notable gene seed mutation, no dark secrets, their minis are literally the vanilla SM minis. They are the 40k equivalent of oatmeal with a side of water.

Does a Chapter need a sour taste to be fun and exciting and edgyyy? What's wrong with the straight-down-the-middle, by-the-book guys?
You say that UM models are just vanilla models - that is, unless you kit them out with their Greco-Roman aesthetic. Imperial Fists? Oh, you put fists on your armour. That's much more exciting /s.

And, as I'll say soon, the Ultras do have a flaw, just not one that's flanderised and shoved down your throat.

vaklor4 wrote:My hate for UM also stems from the fact we have two "that guy"s locally...Who both run nothing but Gulliman + UM.

I can understand this, but that's more Guilliman than anything else. Not necessarily Ultramarines - if Guilliman could be taken by ANY Chapter, they probably wouldn't take Ultramarines.

Strg Alt wrote:Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

And you can relate to any of the other 8 foot tall genetically engineered killing machines, especially the Space Vampires, and the Space Knights, and the Space Crusaders, and the Space Vikings, etc etc?

Unflawed really just shows you don't understand the Ultramarines beyond face value and memes - they have plenty of flaws.
Is it a Dark Secret, or a Fatal Curse, or a We're Too Rebellious flaw? No, not at all - it's their own pride and hubris. Their reliance on the Codex. Cato Sicarius isn't a likeable Ultramarine, but he is a good character. I think this is where a lot of people get their dislike of Ultramarines from, from characters like Sicarius. They're good characters because they show us that even though someone can be a hero, they can still be a Class A asshat: he demonstrates their flaw - pride and hubris. And as we all know, not all Ultramarines are like Sicarius.
This comes to my point that Ultramarines are the only Chapter, aside from perhaps Space Wolves, who actually have a flaw that manifests outside of the universe, in the community.

Hell, they suffer for this, nearly being wiped out on their homeworld for it. Compare to Rynn's World, where the Crimson Fists are just unlucky, and have to fight to survive. The Ultramarines actually suffer from their flaw, and DEVELOP to overcome it. A far stronger narrative thread exists there.

TL;DR - Most Ultramarine hate is undeserved.

Always and forever.
Smurfs are THE most secure way to disqualify yourself from being taken serious. Never met anyone who didn't make jokes at the bluemangroup's expense.

A lot of people do, but it seems to be mostly just within the community of people who play them.

I'd add that the Ultramarines are not just "boring" vanilla marines - they're try-hard at being boring vanilla. I mean, I'm personally in the camp of "Space Wolves are worse," but yeah. I think that's why people hate them...plus just SM in general getting so much more love than all of the other factions.

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

Fatigue really. I have yet to see a shop without at least one Ultras player (and I mean mainline, only have ultramarines, player, not just someone who tangentially has ultras). It gets increasingly boring and tedious to play against them, not at all helped by the fact that they keep yoinking rules from every other faction in the game to them.

It's often like playing with that one kid who insists he has the "Shield of protect against everything" and the "Sword of infinity+1"

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

He was shown to be very upstart, threatening the position of Captain Agemman as next Chapter Master, and his lust for glory gets him in hot water several times - the Fall of Damnos, where he goes for the Overlord directly without really focusing on the battle at hand, and the Battle of Espandor, where he essentially claims all the credit for killing the Chaos leader, when it's really his Sergeant who does the heavy lifting.

In the Ventris novels, he comes across as very arrogant to Ventris, looking down on him and generally being snide throughout the trial.

Essentially, he is very focussed on glory and honour, but this leads to recklessness, arrogance, and often results in other people being sidelined for his own gains.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

It's not much as pride as... pride brought to an extremely unhealthy and self-centered dimention. Like, after damnos fall there was a big upheaval and tons of people were reduced to refugees (plus the massive death-toll). Cato's main worry? He had been beaten and thus his personal honor. To him Damnos wasn't a blow to the imperium, but to HIM, the rest be damned. That callousness and disregard, once you get down to it and couple it with his usual bombast and egolatry is scary.

 vaklor4 wrote:
My hate for UM also stems from the fact we have two "that guy"s locally...Who both run nothing but Gulliman + UM.

As an ultramarines player, they sound like losers lol
I only used G-man once and felt bad after. I totally tabled my friend

Lord Kragan wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Out of curiosity, and because I play "Ultras"(not by paint) and used Sicarius heavily in 6th-7th, what about Sicarius represents the 'dark side' of Ultras? I get "pride", I just don't know how that manifested itself beyond vague blurbs in the codex.

It's not much as pride as... pride brought to an extremely unhealthy and self-centered dimention. Like, after damnos fall there was a big upheaval and tons of people were reduced to refugees (plus the massive death-toll). Cato's main worry? He had been beaten and thus his personal honor. To him Damnos wasn't a blow to the imperium, but to HIM, the rest be damned. That callousness and disregard, once you get down to it and couple it with his usual bombast and egolatry is scary.

Plus that TTS version of him. CAAAATTTOOOOO SICARIUUUUUUUUS!!! That brings the dark side of the ultramarine out.

I just kind of jumped on the bandwagon until I read First Heretic, then I really learnt not to like them.

Reading Dark Imperium has since enforced that idea with Guilliman saying things like "how will the Khan and Corax be able to rebuild the imperium without me?"

They're a great chapter and legion but I really hate their arrogance.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
Do People Still Hate on Ultramarines?

Yes, they do. Why? Well, each of them is an unflawed superman like this flying DC dude with the red cape. You just can´t relate to them in any way.

Unflawed.. It's like people don't actually look to the lore and just the parody versions that people produce.

You want Unflawed you look at the Space Wolves, who never lose (up until recently) and can even flip off the Inquisition all they want with both mutation, heresy, and rebellion while murdering Grey Knights.

Killing gray knights is simply being polite, like taking out the trash. Now if they killed draigo mc plotarmor that would be a public service.

Taffy17 wrote:I just kind of jumped on the bandwagon until I read First Heretic, then I really learnt not to like them.

Reading Dark Imperium has since enforced that idea with Guilliman saying things like "how will the Khan and Corax be able to rebuild the imperium without me?"

They're a great chapter and legion but I really hate their arrogance.

To be fair to Guilliman in both cases, whilst he DID burn down Monarchia, it was under the Emperor's orders, and someone else would have done it if Guilliman had said no.

In the latter case, neither Khan or Corax were great leaders, especially of entrenched empires. Khan was a nomad, refusing to settle for long beyond Quan Zhou, as we see in Brotherhood of the Storm.

Corax wasn't much of a leader, more of a freedom fighter - Guilliman, on the other hand, was a military commander and strategist before he even had his legion, and was already ruling Macragge prosperously. He, with exception of Sanguinius or Horus, would be one of the best choices to lead the Imperium (not from a military standpoint - Russ, Lion, Fulgrim, Perty, Dorn, Sangy or Horus would have been better military leaders).

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll take overly perfect Blue Space Romans over Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf any day of the week.

Yeah but you're Canadian.

hobojebus wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I'll take overly perfect Blue Space Romans over Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf any day of the week.

Yeah but you're Canadian.

Heeeey I'm Canadian too. Besides, we don't like wolves. They are scary things and I want to hug my teddy bear. Oops wait I live in Canada so it's a polar bear amiright?

Ultras are 1000% cooler than the SW. GW really went overboard with Wolfy McWolferson McMurderWolf.

I just kinda want to see all SW models go in a giant dumpster fire with the primaris marines.

5th edition was 3editions ago its time to stop REEEEEEing over it people.

UM's are the boring of boring.

People definitely seem to like them as a legion during Heresy more than as a chapter currently.