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 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

You can't have shadow without light.

A wavering candle would be cooler than a military grade searchlight.

Having the Imperium lose one of their strongest bastions and half the galaxy with it is a massive blow to the empire, but hope returns in the form of Guilliman. It's a new narrative direction, but it certainly doesn't detract that humanity is STILL fethed, now more than ever before. Just because Guilliman's back doesn't mean the Imperium has suddenly won. They just have more to lose.

Yes, god forbid the Chaos would feel like an actual threat! I really prefer Imperium's heroes to be people like Yarrick.

Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Sicarius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus didn't exist before 5th, to my knowledge.

Cassius was introduced in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex brought back to 4th. Telion, Chronus were introduced in 5th..

Sicarius I forgot wasn't around since before 5th, since his loadout is the default 4th edition captain loadout, but he's basically a replacement for 2nd editions Captain Invictus, with a bit of Ancient Helveticus buffing.

Before people forget, the Honour Guard and Sternguard were Ultramarine Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans in 4th as well.

Ultramarines has it's roots in having a full codex to itself, akin to Dark Angels and the like.. And people forget that and wonder why they are so populated.

So yeah Ultramarines had lost: Invictus (replaced by Sicarus as Invictus was too close to the Chapter Master, using a plasma blaster and Power Fists), Ancient Helveticus. They had the Unique Honour Guard/Tyrannic, which became generics. So overall Ultramarines have gained one extra special character since 2nd, not counting the Primarch

Codex Ultramarines: Chief Librarian Tigurius, Marneus Calgar, Chaplain Cassius, Ancient Helveticus, Captain Invictus.

Current Day: Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius, Cassius, Telion, Chronus

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

I think basically everyone agrees that the Space Wolves are terrible. I mean feth, you can see plenty of it in this thread even from people who don't agree with you on the Ultras.

For me, Ultramarines are boring, but Space Wolves are offensive. I can tolerate the blandness of the Ultras, but the world is a little worse because the Space Wolves exist.

 Crimson wrote:

 RedCommander wrote:

It was always pretty clear that the loyalist Primarchs will return at some point in time.

No. It was King Arthur style 'will return in one day' legend. It never needed to actually happen.

And that time is now.

Unfortunately yes. And the setting is kinda ruined. It was not enough for the Primarch fanboys to have an entire separate game and novel series to dedicated to the antics of these superheroes, and now 40K will be about that too.

I still have My Dudes. The setting is not ruined. I welcome any challenge, be they nobodies or superheroes.

Edit: For the record, I don't have a Primarch in my army. And I don't have a problem if my opponent does.

Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

You can't have shadow without light.

A wavering candle would be cooler than a military grade searchlight.

We prety much ALREADY had a wavering candle. The candle wavered more, then dropped at half light.
Guilliman is HARDLY a military grade searchlight. He's one man, he can't replace the Astronomican, he can't be everywhere at once. He can try to reorganise and guide the Imperium's military, but he's still fighting a losing battle. Especially with Chaos Primarchs coming out of the woodwork like never before, more Tyranids coming in, Orks rallying to a new Prophet of the Waaaagh!, Necron Tomb Worlds awakening faster, all Warp Rifts growing larger, Tau expansion, Eldar being bolstered by a new DEITY - it's not just the Imperium who's got new stuff.

There's grimdark, and then there's grimmestpitchblackness.

Having the Imperium lose one of their strongest bastions and half the galaxy with it is a massive blow to the empire, but hope returns in the form of Guilliman. It's a new narrative direction, but it certainly doesn't detract that humanity is STILL fethed, now more than ever before. Just because Guilliman's back doesn't mean the Imperium has suddenly won. They just have more to lose.

Yes, god forbid the Chaos would feel like an actual threat! I really prefer Imperium's heroes to be people like Yarrick.

Chaos was a threat beforehand. They portrayed most Chaos events fine - Warbands attacking Imperial worlds to destabilise the region, launch raids for resources, and generally bleed them slowly before the Imperium can bring it's superior forces to bear. The only sticking point is Abaddon, and even then, it was "all part of the plan".

Just because they weren't outright head-on battling the Imperium doesn't mean they weren't an actual threat.

And your latter point, that's fine. You're allowed that opinion, and you can always still play with your human heroes (despite Yarrick having more plot armour than most characters). However, that's just your opinion and preference, and other people have theirs.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Sicarius, Cassius, Telion and Chronus didn't exist before 5th, to my knowledge.

Cassius was introduced in the 2nd edition Ultramarines codex brought back to 4th. Telion, Chronus were introduced in 5th..

Sicarius I forgot wasn't around since before 5th, since his loadout is the default 4th edition captain loadout, but he's basically a replacement for 2nd editions Captain Invictus, with a bit of Ancient Helveticus buffing.

Before people forget, the Honour Guard and Sternguard were Ultramarine Honour Guard and Tyrannic War Veterans in 4th as well.

Ultramarines has it's roots in having a full codex to itself, akin to Dark Angels and the like.. And people forget that and wonder why they are so populated.

So yeah Ultramarines had lost: Invictus (replaced by Sicarus as Invictus was too close to the Chapter Master, using a plasma blaster and Power Fists), Ancient Helveticus. They had the Unique Honour Guard/Tyrannic, which became generics. So overall Ultramarines have gained one extra special character since 2nd, not counting the Primarch

Codex Ultramarines: Chief Librarian Tigurius, Marneus Calgar, Chaplain Cassius, Ancient Helveticus, Captain Invictus.

Current Day: Calgar, Tigurius, Sicarius, Cassius, Telion, Chronus

My apologies, you are right on the Cassius front. Sicarius is new, but is a copy of previous captains, but still counts as new for this sake?

And yes, you do have a good point on the special units front too - I'll concede this, fair play!

*drinks from his horn filled with tears of the envious* hmm delicious.

As a grey knight player, I can sympathize you poor ultramarine players...

The shadow of the Ward looms over us all. I can still hear the screams of those sisters of battle.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.

UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.
't st
UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

I love Primaris but would have preferred primarchs stayed asleep. I just like 10 foot tall marines - that is what they should have been in the first place IMO. Marines of any flavor don't strike me as fascists though.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.
't st
UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

I love Primaris but would have preferred primarchs stayed asleep. I just like 10 foot tall marines - that is what they should have been in the first place IMO. Marines of any flavor don't strike me as fascists though.

I mean, they are. The entire imperium is, insofar as we understand it - a centralized capitalist society controlled directly by the military state propelled in large part by military conquest. The imperium is a fascist oligarchy as a whole, and every world controlled by a Space Marine chapter that we know of is essentially a fascistic system.

People forget that with "Communist" and "Fascist" those words don't just mean "the baddies" they actually have a practical definition. Nobody's going around electing space marines.

Say what you want about the Space Wolves wolf theme being dialed up to a ridiculous level. I've got a friend who was indifferent to 40K till she saw Thunderwolf Cavalry. Now she's a die-hard Space Wolf player.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM.

I think you are mistaken about the Ultramarines being religious fanatics. Sure, they are very zealous, but not overly so for Space Marines in general. They're nothing on the Dark Angels and Black Templars, even Imperial Fists, and the Space Wolves are even more zealous and fanatical to Russ and Fenris.

Plus, whilst I understand your cultural imprinting of Roman-esque = Fascist, the Ultramarines are, considering they're in the generally very fascist Imperium, incredibly liberal. They're a strongly based Meritocracy, with a Military Autocrat ruling by proxy. The citizens generally have a very positive standard of living, with the defence of a Space Marine Chapter, lots of culture, no shortage of resources or materials, and are typically well educated and provisioned for.

The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.

Are Space Wolves more customisable? In lore, not quite. Sure, the Ultramarines have unit logos and iconography largely uniform, but the detailing and armour is freely customisable - the picture of the Ultramarines Second Company shows an incredible diversity in armour marks and layouts. Space Wolves get more customisability in that they can put wolf pelts on. Realistically, any Chapter can be heavily blinged up.

Again, the barbaric and savage Viking theme is all well and good, but still a matter of opinion. As I said before, I feel that a lot of people like the Wolves for that, and dislike the Ultramarines for their order, because in Western media a lot now, especially America, the "rogue, renegade rebellious" character is shown off as better than the "disciplined, orderly, controlled" character. Hence, the Ultramarines, who embody the latter aspect are not seen as "badass", in perhaps the same reason a D&D paladin or Good Cop is passed over in favour of more "wild" characters.

UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Before Guilliman, in 6th and 7th, Ultras were probably second or third most popular, and only Tigurius was really taken as a Special Character.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Sgt. Smudge is my new favorite dakkanaught for this valient denfence of the Ultra Marines. Truly though. Space wolves are the worst offenders - but you don't see threads like this about - "do people hate space wolves" because then 1000's of space wolf players come in and start barking how awesome their primarch was and how BAD ASS Wolfen are and all this nonsense. Ewww. Wolves.

Maybe in your area.

I love the wolves because they don't look fascists (the roman theme reminds of fascism here) and religious fanatics like UM. The viking theme, the fact that they look barbaric and savages and a close combat oriented army, the possibility to customize the models more than other chapters, that's why wolves are loved. I like the wolfy theme they have but that's not the main reason why they are loved.

UM are mostly hated because GW buffs them more than any other faction, for no reason actually, since they sold a lot anyway, they don't need new kits. Guilliman and primaris should have never existed IMHO.

The fifth edition SM codex was nowhere near the power level as GK - it was IMO the worst SM codex ever... many units way over pointed and veteran units with could shooot and chop were replaced by Sterngaurd and Vanguard which are both still very lackluster units.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

And once it is announced that he died a martyr's death while fighting the enemies of the Imperium they will love him even more! (But he will become much easier to manage.)

The 5E SM codex had some issues, Vanguard vets were definitely overcosted, but was not an awul book. Sternguard vets were very popular (though id agree the split and renaming was silly). The books biggest issue was that the other 5E marine books were turned up to 12. The SM codex was very definitely considered to be solid in 5E otherwise. Vulkan melta spam, TH/SS terminators, drop pod sternguard, lasplas razorback spam, etc was all really powerful and did very well.

The issue was 140pt 5 ML split fire longfang squads, cheap Bolter/BP/CCW counterattack GH's, 5pt autocannon Psybolts and Coteaz, outflanking AV13 Fast Attack battle tanks and the like from other SM variants ended up as "Space Marines +1"

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

Which frankly doesn't make any sense, because anyone in the Imperium agreeing that anything is good is completely out of character for this most dysfunctional of bureaucracies.

Doesn't matter what they write there will be those who eat it like a pitbull on a porkchop. While quite unimpressive, I will say that the writing is at least colourful and ultimately entertaining in an unintentional side effect way.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

Which frankly doesn't make any sense, because anyone in the Imperium agreeing that anything is good is completely out of character for this most dysfunctional of bureaucracies.

They already had him as Lord Commander before. Why wouldn't they want him now, after:

- They realise the throne is failing
- Cadia has fallen
- Half the Imperium has been lost from the Astronomican
- There are MORE xenos and Chaos threats than ever before
- He's freely offering new reinforcement, and promise of advancement for good service.

There's dysfunctioning, and then there's actively working to destroy itself.

Personally, my dislike of the UM comes from that one book where the author ignores the DKoK fluff in order to put the UM on a pedestal, that stung and that increased with the return of Roboute (primarchs are a mistake, imo)

Not that I am a big fan of SM's in general, but that's another topic

5th edition ultramarines weren't overpowered but still among the most popular and common armies. Did they need a boost? They sold lots of miniatures anyway.

The problem with competitive marines is a meta in which 75% (if not more) of the players have a SM army, which kills variety and makes the game boring.

I've always collected armies because of their miniatures and maybe style of playing, nothing else. Since SM have always been very popular IMHO making them highly competitive means a bad game deisgn, even more people would collect and field them this way.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
The Ultramarines are only the most buffed now because of Guilliman. Get rid of him, and I can guarentee you'd see more Raven Guard or Salamanders lists.

Indeed! We only need to get rid of Guilliman! Could Inquisitor Karamazov perhaps kindly put a bullet in his this meddlesome Primarch's luminous head? It is just unacceptable to have this so-called 'Son of the Emperor' around to upset the status quo and impede the wise High Lords in their work!

Guilliman is a high lord - plus - everyone loves him.

Which frankly doesn't make any sense, because anyone in the Imperium agreeing that anything is good is completely out of character for this most dysfunctional of bureaucracies.

They already had him as Lord Commander before. Why wouldn't they want him now, after:

- They realise the throne is failing
- Cadia has fallen
- Half the Imperium has been lost from the Astronomican
- There are MORE xenos and Chaos threats than ever before
- He's freely offering new reinforcement, and promise of advancement for good service.

There's dysfunctioning, and then there's actively working to destroy itself.

Because Guilliman's reforms represent a complete shattering of the current power structure of the Imperium? If Guilliman starts cleaning up corruption then organizations like the Inquisition that thrive due to the Imperium's stagnation have everything to lose.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Because Guilliman's reforms represent a complete shattering of the current power structure of the Imperium? If Guilliman starts cleaning up corruption then organizations like the Inquisition that thrive due to the Imperium's stagnation have everything to lose.

No more so than what's already happened. Again, as we've seen, he knows he can't win everyone over, so he plays into the Ecclesiarchy for morale.

The Inquisition, largely, doesn't thrive on stagnation. It thrives on politics and control, but not stagnation. Don't forget, Guilliman was around for the Inquisition to be created in the first place when he was Lord Commander, so he likely knows their ways and how he can assert his power (namely Custodes, most Space Marines, Mars, and the majority of Imperial military branches).

It's more prudent for people to do as Guilliman says and earn a position of power under him - he's a pragmatist, he'd rather have allies than enemies.

 Blackie wrote:
5th edition ultramarines weren't overpowered but still among the most popular and common armies. Did they need a boost? They sold lots of miniatures anyway.

The problem with competitive marines is a meta in which 75% (if not more) of the players have a SM army, which kills variety and makes the game boring.

I've always collected armies because of their miniatures and maybe style of playing, nothing else. Since SM have always been very popular IMHO making them highly competitive means a bad game deisgn, even more people would collect and field them this way.

Holy cow - you should have seen my shop in 5th ed when they released the blood angel codex. There were literally blood angels armies facing blood angels armies - some were space wolves facing blood angels. Then me and my buddy playing our ultra and IG armies against each other. Practically no xenos! and 80% blood angels.

I like the Ultramarines, always have. The problem is that they have become too mary sue, and having Guilliman come back and then immediately ignore major plot things (such as the cicatrix maledictum or whatever that gash in the middle of the imperium is; in the book guilliman just ignores it completely when it's supposed to be this really major event), and in general just make the ultras out to be poor 80s cartoon heroes who never lose and always foil the bumbling villains plans.

However, they are still awesome. 30k ultras are really amazing as well.

Nevelon wrote:

lliu wrote:
Cato Sicarius is now dead so I hate them slightly less. Just slightly less.

As much as I disliked him, he made a valuable point: The Ultramarines are not perfect. While we don’t turn into vampires/werwolves/traitors like some other chapters, we have our flaws. Hubris. Pride. Arrogance. Overconfidence. Sicarius summed up the “dark” side of the Ultras very well.

Being the poster boys has also made them a victim of a lot of poor writing. A lot of our characters can be summed up as “I’m the best <blank>” even when they shouldn’t be. I just chalk that up to the fact that all the books are basically in-game non-reliable propaganda. And the fact they they get most of the limelight, means they get a proportional share of the crap writing.

But if you want the real mary sue/plot armor chapter, look to the Space Wolves. They are FAR worse in that regard then the Ultras.

I think a lot of the Ultra hate is just echos of 5th, and Ward’s really bad fluff/comments. The echo chamber of the internet and memes won’t let that dies, and it’s something the edgy kids can hang on. I’ve never seen anyone who actually hates the ultras. A lot will toss jokes out, but without any malice behind them.

I've played Crimson Fists since Space Marines models existed. My moment of hating the Ultramarines first started when they first decided to name the Space Marines codex Codex: Ultramarines. Right then and THERE I started hating them, solely because any vanilla chapter instantaneously got pegged with the "Ultramarines" moniker. My chapter's history, and my LEGION'S history, is more than "Trying to be Ultramarines" Ward's 5th Ed. codex just cemented that hatred by showing me that he probably weeps at night because he couldn't have named the codex Codex: Ultramarines.

Mr Morden wrote:Flanderisation

Okay, apparently I don't internet enough. What the feth is THIS?!?!!?

 Just Tony wrote:

Mr Morden wrote:Flanderisation

Okay, apparently I don't internet enough. What the feth is THIS?!?!!?

It refers to when a particular trait in a character becomes exaggerated and focused on to the exclusion of all other character traits, often resulting in an interesting character becoming boring and one dimensional. The name is in reference to Flanders from the Simpsons, who became more and more passive and hyper-religious over the course of the show.

As you can see OP, many people still do hate the Ultramarines.. Many for less then stellar reasons that's for sure. And given a few, some just wanted it to be their special snowflake chapter that became the frontrunner.