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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
2nd Edition had superheavies. I still have Inquisitor 16, with the rules for Baneblades, and the Armourcast Baneblade that went with.

Spoiler:

Never saw a Baneblade for sale in 2nd. Is the shown model a scratchbuild?

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
2nd Edition had superheavies. I still have Inquisitor 16, with the rules for Baneblades, and the Armourcast Baneblade that went with.

Spoiler:

Never saw a Baneblade for sale in 2nd. Is the shown model a scratchbuild?

Nope! Armorcast produced them under license for GW for a long time. You can still get the old Armorcast Baneblades on Ebay sometimes. (e.g. here's one that comes with the parts to make it a Armorcast Shadowsword as well!)

I just sold my armorcast Baneblade and a friend of mine still has his shadowsword. Both from 2ed.

Another of my friends has a couple of tyranid super heavies from the same era as well. Haraspex and malefactor maybe?

Yeah, superheavies have been in "28mm" 40k from the get-go.

It's why I find all the hate surrounding them so staggering; people act like they are "intrusions into the game" as if they've never been, aha.

Yeah. But rulewise not that special. Couple leman russ would be providing about same in less eggs in one bucket that's not THAT much more survivable than russ. 2nd ed super heavies were basically just tanks with more guns. More akin step up from leman russ like land raider was step up from predator.

I have blown one several times already.

Really not much in 2nd ed single models that single lascannon COULDN'T take out with some luck. Nurgle daemon prince is pretty much only thing I recall that was 100% impossible to kill with single lascannon.

tneva82 wrote:
Yeah. But rulewise not that special. Couple leman russ would be providing about same in less eggs in one bucket that's not THAT much more survivable than russ. 2nd ed super heavies were basically just tanks with more guns. More akin step up from leman russ like land raider was step up from predator.

I have blown one several times already.

Yes, Baneblades have always had roughly the firepower of 3 tanks and durability of 3 tanks, while costing considerably more. They've never been very good until now - and now, it's almost exclusively due to the Steel Behemoth rule more than anything.

Primarchs? Space wolves had one in 2nd LOL
Although, I was never able to pick up the figure

http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg

kaotkbliss wrote:
Primarchs? Space wolves had one in 2nd LOL
Although, I was never able to pick up the figure

http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg

Do you have his profile?

I used to bring plasma missiles in every list once I discovered them. That took me a year as I wasn't very competent or competitive at it back then.
My friend used to send his warp spiders at my army, which was just starter box marines at best and kill most of them in then second turn. I read battle reports but knowing what a refused flank is had having a collection of models strong enough to use it effectively are two different things. haha. I started winning after I started collecting a Chaos space Marines army! So much fun they were! I did much better when I finally began collecting Imperial Guard. I think we had discovered a few other people that played about then.
I recall Space Marines as extremely unforgiving back then. But again my collection was pitiful.
Now days I easily know what I'd like to field for a game of second edition. I just don't know how many points that would translate into.
My best memory from back then. I was going to be moving from Washington State to Florida. My friends threw a 4 player tournament for our last get together. The Ork player rushed his Warboss on Boar up the side of the board, fixated on my Ratling Sniper hero, Who would take a shot at the Boss which plinked off his Displacer Field. Sending him off the board and out of play. Fantastic!
I remember the first time I managed to kill my friends Avatar, I saw a tear in his eye. lol.
Eldar were simply mean and nasty!
Ah, One time I had 10 Tactical marines manage to kill and Eversor Assassin It exploded and killed most of them.
I was just really really bad at 40K back then.

 Strg Alt wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
Primarchs? Space wolves had one in 2nd LOL
Although, I was never able to pick up the figure

http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg

Do you have his profile?

That I have never heard of existing and been trying. I suspect it was model that was made more fun and didn't have rules back then. Could be wrong though but I have never heard even hint of him having rules.

tneva82 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
Primarchs? Space wolves had one in 2nd LOL
Although, I was never able to pick up the figure

http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg

Do you have his profile?

That I have never heard of existing and been trying. I suspect it was model that was made more fun and didn't have rules back then. Could be wrong though but I have never heard even hint of him having rules.

Leman Russ is not included in the 2nd Space Wolves Codex. There could have been rules for him in a WD or maybe in Rogue Trader.

Has anyone mentined the damage dice yet?
Ooooh the damage dice. You think weapon doing d6 damage is too random? How about a zoanthropes Warp Blast doing D10 damage and D12+D10+D6+7 armor penetration?

Genestealer are bad now? How about when they were WS7 S6 A4 basic?

They also use to have specific rules interactions with various weapons. For example flamers could set them on fire but the will of the hive mind stopped them from panicing and allowed them to act normally. They were immune to needle weapons and shrieker shurikens but especially vulnerable to hellfire bolter shells.

They were also immume to choke, halluconigen, scare, toxin and virus grenades.

I think the big difference for Super Heavies and such in 2nd edition was that they weren't allowed in most tournament or store leagues. I know in our game store leagues we only allowed official GW units. It wasn't until 6th or 7th edition I think that GW finally made the FW stuff official.

Eldar were the devil in 2nd edition. Mostly because of various flavors of Swooping Hawk Exarchs.

Also, I'm not sure what game some of you were playing, but in my Chaos army, the Chaos Lord and the Sorcerer Lord were primary threats, they were basically unstoppable without vortex. I don't even remember what people shot at in my army outside the two of them, they were everywhere doing everything.

Tyranids were really nasty in 2nd, Voltage fields, Genestealers were specifically balanced around their ability to kill Terminators, they were ugly.

Being a narrative player at heart, an RPG-er in my youth (as early as maybe 9-10 years old, my buddy's older brothers would run RPGs with us, etc.) 2nd ed. 40K was all about story and mayhem. Seeing the game gutted in 3rd edition and becoming a pale shell of its former self was really saddening. Easier? Sure. Better for tournaments? Absolutely. But the soul of the game was gone.

-The expanded and widely diverse stat line meant that more things were incredible hero-hammer and it made it feel much more like the fluff. This may have hurt the game in a competitive sense, but watching an assassin fight a Greater Daemon or Avatar to a standstill over 5-6 turns was crazy.

-Vastly more in depth rules allowed for much more of a "do what you want" approach to the game. Want to leap off a moving vehicle without it stopping? Go for it, there's a table for that. Want to suicidally ram your marine biker into a Hive Tyrant and hope you hurt it? Cool, got rules for it. Want to do a drift on your bike and try to carry out a passing attack? Go for it. Guns damaged and your tank's immobilized? Grab your laspistol, leave the tank and start fighting. How many people remember running a single surviving crew around in a tank, trying to man a different gun as needed? Did a vehicle blow up? Hope it doesn't explode and flip over on things nearby. Playing Orks? Good luck. Oh your opponent has daemons and you just teleported your Warp Spiders? Hope one of them isn't a plaguebearer by the time they re-appear.

The Rogue Trader almost-RPG nature was still hanging around heavily in 2nd. Almost anything you wanted to try, could be done somehow. This made up for the disaster which was grenades, psychic phase, etc. Flamers setting stuff on fire, vortex grenades drifting around the battlefield, units being able to actually hide, etc. There were a lot of hidden rules people often forgot - the degradation of armour penetration over distance - the ability to shoot special weapons in close combat against a vehicle, etc.

It was a totally different game. Violent and at the same time, not nearly as violent as modern 40K. Meaning something like an Imperial Guard squad wasn't chaff to be wiped out on a whim. Still weak, sure...but you could plan on units actually having a real role or purpose in the game.

All of this made it terrible if you played with dickheads or cheesy gamers. If you didn't? (and if you didn't live in Martel's world where everything is horrible all the time and nothing is good - a realm of blighted darkness and foul things) You could have a hell of a time. A much more involved and story-writing game than the current game and anything since.

@Twinpole- The models I was talking about weren't FW they were armorcast (licensed from GW). The reason you probably didn't see them at events was that they were pretty rare.To be honest I doubt that armorcast made more than a couple thousand of each of the superheavy models (maybe not even that many) and they weren't that cheap in relation to normal options both point wise and $ wise.
By the time 3rd came around I'm pretty sure that both armorcast and epiccast were no longer allowed to manufacture superheavies so they went OOP.

Yeah, in 3rd Forge World (as an internal company of Games Workshop) began to produce the models and rules for Baneblades (I still have my floppy Imperial Armour Volume 1 from that era!).

They have always been as legal as anything else, which is to say "ask nicely first."

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
Also, I'm not sure what game some of you were playing, but in my Chaos army, the Chaos Lord and the Sorcerer Lord were primary threats, they were basically unstoppable without vortex. I don't even remember what people shot at in my army outside the two of them, they were everywhere doing everything.

Those were nasty yes but chaos lord could really hope to kill like 6 models in the course of game. 4 turn game, 8 h2h phases. Even if you could make turn 1 charge(how?) that's 8 combat phases. More realistically you are looking at 5-6 combat phases tops. Enemy spreads out, you get 1, MAYBE 2 model in b2b. That's 1, MAYBE 2 deaths. Next combat phase repeat. 1, maybe 2(obvious requirement being YOU move model first).

Okay shooting might kill more but if you are alone you will be in close combat forever for all intents and purposes.

Ditto for sorcerer. Though at least sorcerer has psychic powers to help with.

To get through even 20 orks it will take basically entire game for the 2 tag teamed and still not enough if orks don't botch LD(with general and maybe BSB reroll...).

Basically we have found cheaper heroes and more grunts to be more viable as you need lots of models to bring down lots of models hurriedly and really there's not much difference between bog standard terminator and chaos lord when it comes down to taking down basic guys.

Sure you weren't going to kill those characters easily but they aren't earning their points killing grunt or two at a time...And if you don't have much other than grunts for them to deal with...

So if character couldn't munch through tank he had trouble earning himself. Tanks are about only expensive lone models we reliably use. And characters are efficient only at killing expensive lone models.

I remember spent nearly 1 hour solving a single Splatta Cannon once.

The goddamn thing keep twisting and twsiting flying around the battlefield... and my opponent had 3 of those to fire.

tneva82 wrote:
Those were nasty yes but chaos lord could really hope to kill like 6 models in the course of game. 4 turn game, 8 h2h phases. Even if you could make turn 1 charge(how?)

Chaos Lords could have multiple marks, usually, mine was Khorne/Tzeentch, I usually drew second from the psychic powers deck for him, so that my Sorcerer Lord would clear out some of the specifics I didn't want and would insure he got Teleport and the Quickening. First turn charge was common. Also, the Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne had an absurd number of attacks (especially with the Quickening). Also, the Lightning Claw shredded vehicles, he could kill any character in the game in HtH, he was an amazing whirling dervish of death. With teleport he was all over my opponent's back line hitting whatever he needed to hit.

Sorcerer Lord had Warp Jump Generator, so he basically went wherever he wanted on the board. Inferno Bolts versus vehicles and beat troops was murder. Especially against anything T3, like Guard, Eldar, he was just coring out vehicles and leaving them without crew. He didn't engage in HtH too much, but vehicles just had their crews erased. He was in Terminator armour using the combi-bolter to fire Inferno Bolts, so he'd get 2 template per shot IIRC.

Mobility was critical, occasionally I'd get a game where the Chaos Lord didn't pull Teleport, and I was sad, but most of the time you could manipulate the deck to get what you needed.

 Strg Alt wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

kaotkbliss wrote:
Primarchs? Space wolves had one in 2nd LOL
Although, I was never able to pick up the figure

http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg

Do you have his profile?

That I have never heard of existing and been trying. I suspect it was model that was made more fun and didn't have rules back then. Could be wrong though but I have never heard even hint of him having rules.

Leman Russ is not included in the 2nd Space Wolves Codex. There could have been rules for him in a WD or maybe in Rogue Trader.

Yeah, the rules weren't in the codex but I do remember seeing them somewhere. I think it was in a WD issue but can't seem to find which one

We still play as many of my friends refuse to play post 3rd.

I love 8th but our 2nd edtion games are a blast.

ShadowSword, Baneblade, Stormblade Tempest super heavies. Warhound and Revenant scout titans. Destroyer Knight Titan, Phantom and Reaver titans and lots more. The Mega Ork Gargant was like 18" tall and 20" or more round!!!!!

They did restrict you to 25% of your armies cost could not exceed the Lords of War stuff. So that kept things like all Super Heavy list from dominating.

Chaos super characters with 2+ rerolls on 2d6 terminator saves with 3+ Displacer Saves and some psychic/chaos shenanigans meant that it took like 120 to 150 lascannon shots to kill some of those characters on average.

chaos would take a unit of orks with Pulsa rokkets and boom you were hurting.

I remember 2 lovely events. One was when my Revenant Scout Titan Reactor overloaded and made a 24" diameter Vortex explosion that destroyed everything inside.

The other was an ork nobz unit inside a thunderhawk gunship...cant remember but it was 2 vs our 3 chaos armies.

Pulsa rockets knocked all our super character to the ground. The Thunderhawk laid like a 36" mega blast of grenades and then landed...the ork nobz jumped out killed everyone but a couple nurgle marines and 1 super khorne character. That was like 50 of our guys dead and next turn they jumped back in and 'dusted off' and the rest of their army was free to shoot us like ducks. OUCH.

exploding vehicles....models getting moved outside of blast templates and falling off cliffs/roottops, Vehicles with no guns ramming other vehicles or running down troops to win the game.....Things and flavor that you can never get out of 3rd+

One player said it seems in new 40K the actual miniature doesn't mean much to the game as all the intricate rules for 2nd ed...."it is a miniature game right...so why don't the miniatures matter much"

I tend to agree..strategems are fun but it seems more of a power combo card game now than the old fashioned miniature game it used to be.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
Those were nasty yes but chaos lord could really hope to kill like 6 models in the course of game. 4 turn game, 8 h2h phases. Even if you could make turn 1 charge(how?)

Chaos Lords could have multiple marks, usually, mine was Khorne/Tzeentch, I usually drew second from the psychic powers deck for him, so that my Sorcerer Lord would clear out some of the specifics I didn't want and would insure he got Teleport and the Quickening. First turn charge was common. Also, the Chaos Lord with the Mark of Khorne had an absurd number of attacks (especially with the Quickening). Also, the Lightning Claw shredded vehicles, he could kill any character in the game in HtH, he was an amazing whirling dervish of death. With teleport he was all over my opponent's back line hitting whatever he needed to hit.

Sorcerer Lord had Warp Jump Generator, so he basically went wherever he wanted on the board. Inferno Bolts versus vehicles and beat troops was murder. Especially against anything T3, like Guard, Eldar, he was just coring out vehicles and leaving them without crew. He didn't engage in HtH too much, but vehicles just had their crews erased. He was in Terminator armour using the combi-bolter to fire Inferno Bolts, so he'd get 2 template per shot IIRC.

Mobility was critical, occasionally I'd get a game where the Chaos Lord didn't pull Teleport, and I was sad, but most of the time you could manipulate the deck to get what you needed.

Yes well Let's say 1st turn charge and you go first. That's still just 8 combat phase. With some luck like 10-12 models in b2b contact over the game. So that's 10-12 models dead MAX. One combat phase less if opponent gets first turn.

And attacks after ~5 was irrelevant. Once you rolled that 6 that was good enough. After that all criticals are countered by fumbbles. Actually if opponent made fumble's be 2 it was worse so theoretically if you had enough attacks you reached point where you lose to a grot in average...Though albeit nobody had that much attacks.

What more attacks did was at most make it swingy resulting in very good results(you rolled lots of 6's) or very bad(lots of 1's) but even this was actually BAD for characters as they didn't NEED to roll tons against most stuff to beat. So generally 3-4 attacks was the sweet spot.

And yes they would kill any character in the game.

What happens when rather than characters you have tons of grunts against you? Keep in mind it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to kill more than 2 in close combat and even that requires some luck/mistake from opponent or him feeling it's worth the risk. Which means either he miscalculated(it wasn't worth it) or it was good for him and if it's good for him by definition it's bad for you because he's coming with something that is actually then going to beat you in average.

Characters were sure nasty. As long as they had single expensive models to deal with. What happens when you remove those from army facing your terminator lord? You spend your time killing basic grunts. Mark of khorne doubling attacks is irrelelevant. Single chaos terminator would be effectively just as killy but hell of a lot cheaper allowing you to bring more models thus engaging more models.

tneva82 wrote:
What happens when rather than characters you have tons of grunts against you? Keep in mind it's IMPOSSIBLE for you to kill more than 2 in close combat and even that requires some luck/mistake from opponent or him feeling it's worth the risk. Which means either he miscalculated(it wasn't worth it) or it was good for him and if it's good for him by definition it's bad for you because he's coming with something that is actually then going to beat you in average.

Characters were sure nasty. As long as they had single expensive models to deal with. What happens when you remove those from army facing your terminator lord? You spend your time killing basic grunts. Mark of khorne doubling attacks is irrelelevant. Single chaos terminator would be effectively just as killy but hell of a lot cheaper allowing you to bring more models thus engaging more models.

I don't recall getting locked into HtH in 2nd edition, but it was long time ago, I do recall them getting around to do a lot of work. But you're probably correct, I mostly remember him destroying the major threats on the board.

Besides, against hordes, I had Daemonically possessed Rhinos with as many combi-bolters as I could put on them and they were virtually unkillable. He usually didn't have to deal with hordes.

There were no hordes in 2nd ed.

Whirlwinds, plasma missles and Basilisks made hordes a horrible choice.

Earthshaker cannons auto penetrated and fired twice each with a 2" blast.....kills most charactes and most vehicles and definitely most hordes.

Tyranids had a lot of units but their shootin sucked.
Orcs could field 200 gretchin but their shooting sucked too.

Shooting and super characters ruled 2nd ed.

3rd edition brought balance to the game but cut way too much of the fun of the game out to clean the cheese.

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

I don't recall getting locked into HtH in 2nd edition, but it was long time ago, I do recall them getting around to do a lot of work. But you're probably correct, I mostly remember him destroying the major threats on the board.

Besides, against hordes, I had Daemonically possessed Rhinos with as many combi-bolters as I could put on them and they were virtually unkillable. He usually didn't have to deal with hordes.

If you get into combat with say 10 orks without any help you were there for like MINIMUM 5 combat phases(=2.5 turns out of 4 turn games). You can't kill anything that you are not in b2b. Enemy has no requirement to bring models into b2b. That means when he moves models in conbat first he moves one model into combat and keeps shooting with rest. You move and you hope to get more than 1 model into b2b contact.

You smash that one for good. Repeat.

There just isn't enough game turns to go through units on your own. Even against mere TEN grunts. 10 orks is pretty darn cheap squad. And you don't need super killy character to kill an ork. Terminator with any weapon basically does that for lot cheaper.

It's basically same principle as 8th ed conscript/ork boy swarm has. Enemy simply lacks attacks to kill them all. Except there's added bonus that all those attacks on character are basically USELESS. In 8th ed character with 10 attacks can kill 10 models in h2h if there is 10 models in the unit. In 2nd ed those 10 attacks can be more of liability as you are never ever EVER going to kill more models than in b2b contact(of which rules don't force you to maximize) and actually hinders as that increases the odds of you rolling spectacularly bad 8 1's thus negating your high WS and actually losing the combat(has happened to me...Bloody hell getting my character beaten by stinking tactical marine on 1-1 combat That was rather embarrassing! And by beaten I mean KILLED! Losing combat bad enough but then having audacity of getting actually killed by resulting hits...URGH).

Can characters be good? Well yes obviously. It's just there's such a nice hard counter of removing expensive high profile targets coupled with cheap vortex grenade carried by some cheap unit champion for added proof that we went toward more bodies direction.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 admironheart wrote:
There were no hordes in 2nd ed.

Whirlwinds, plasma missles and Basilisks made hordes a horrible choice.

Earthshaker cannons auto penetrated and fired twice each with a 2" blast.....kills most charactes and most vehicles and definitely most hordes.

And kills elite infantry the same. And good spacing helps nicely. 2" blast is nice but maxed out dispersion helps a lot. Remember army sizes are smalled in 2nd ed so that even term horde doesn't mean you are all bunched up. That shoulder to shoulder clumping happened from 3rd ed onward and even more specifically 6th ed onward as model counts went up to roof. 2nd ed even horde army could easily disperse. You would need to make hell of a mistake to bunch up against template weapons.

Lets not forget 2nd ed Eldar d-cannons ( or distortion cannons to give em the full name) Utterly bonkers damage chart that could rematerialise your target 10 feet underground causing a sort of matter/anti-matter thermonuclear detonation.... i still to this day remember landing a predator ON TOP OF a land raider (yes you could teleport stuff up as well as down) . Treating the resultant mess as a vehicle ram, the land raider was unharmed but the predator was immobile..net result...landraider now has effectively three more sponson weapons.......

Or how about the freakishly powerful warp spiders... i shoot you, i roll a die.. if i roll higher than your initiative...you are dead...yes dead regardless of wounds....but.. i get +1 to my total for every other one that has hit you this turn that you have managed to survive... on a weapon with A HEAVY FLAMER TEMPLATE!!!!!!!

Come to think of it, the 2nd ed eldar book was truly truly horrifically powerful..(Jain zar being able to decimate armies with her spiky boomerang thingy is another one I,ve just remembered)

Fun yes....hilarious certainly...balanced IN NO WAY WHATSOEVER

kaotkbliss wrote:
Primarchs? Space wolves had one in 2nd LOL
Although, I was never able to pick up the figure

http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/forumfiles/leman-russ-2nd-ed.jpg

This model pre-dates 2nd edition. It is also not a Primarch, there weren't Primarchs yet. Yes, it is still Leman Russ. He was just some generic captain in the Space Wolves.

princeyg wrote:
Lets not forget 2nd ed Eldar d-cannons ( or distortion cannons to give em the full name) Utterly bonkers damage chart that could rematerialise your target 10 feet underground causing a sort of matter/anti-matter thermonuclear detonation.... i still to this day remember landing a predator ON TOP OF a land raider (yes you could teleport stuff up as well as down) . Treating the resultant mess as a vehicle ram, the land raider was unharmed but the predator was immobile..net result...landraider now has effectively three more sponson weapons.......

Wait. Does that mean with enough vehicles and enough time, you could use D-Cannons to assemble a Metal Box Voltron?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
@Twinpole- The models I was talking about weren't FW they were armorcast (licensed from GW). The reason you probably didn't see them at events was that they were pretty rare.To be honest I doubt that armorcast made more than a couple thousand of each of the superheavy models (maybe not even that many) and they weren't that cheap in relation to normal options both point wise and $ wise.
By the time 3rd came around I'm pretty sure that both armorcast and epiccast were no longer allowed to manufacture superheavies so they went OOP.

I have the old Armorcast tanks - one Baneblade and one Shadowsword. Shortly after I got mine, they made a kit that could be swapped out as either. There was a minimum points threshhold where they could be used - I think it 2,000 points. As for the tanks themselves, I seem to remember buying them for about $55 each - and they came with their own datafax, so you didn't need the White Dwarf or IA book the stats came from.

Also, I may be misremembering as a 1E thing, but you could have your vehicle crew disembark to fight on foot. Nothing like popping a rhino to have the driver and gunner get out and shoot you back - I remember equipping them with Rocket launchers or other heavy weapons to get revenge.

And there's nothing like knocking out a superheavy to have a veteran infantry squad pop out (a Baneblade has a crew of 10) to chase down whatever knocked the tank out in the first place.

any crew in 2nd edition could get out and shoot with their pistols. The rules stated that they must remain within either 3" or 6" I think of their tank.

The last game that happened the tank had no weapons...not even a bolter so the driver kept on ramming the Exocrine while the gunner jumped out to shoot from behind. Lets say the gunner didn't last long.