Do Flakk Missiles still fire the actual missile?

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**Unit1126PLL**

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Incorrect. Telling you what you do after a hit overrides what you would normally do after a hit. [Citation Needed] It would need to specify the mortal wounds are in addition to the normal damage if it's not substituting for the normal damage. It doesn't specify, it merely states that you do mortal d3 Mortal wounds when you hit, therefore that's all you're entitled to do. [color=red]Why does it need to specify? The BRB mandates that you continue the shooting process after the To-Hit roll; there is no command that rescinds this mandate./color]

Comments in red.

Jacksmiles wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:

No. The stratagem doesn't say it's giving you "extra" things to do in the process of resolving the attack, it's telling you what you have to do when resolving the attack. In specific, it tells you to inflict d3 mortal wounds. it does not tell you to inflict D3 mortal wounds in addition to the normal wound. That's not "extra", that's a substitution.

As for following the BRB, you are still follwing the BRB (or the battle primer, since it's in the core rules) - you follow the rules in the Mortal Wounds sidebar where it says "Do not make a wound roll or saving throw (including invulnerable saves) against a mortal wound - just inflict it as you would any other wound and inflict damage to a model in the target unit as described above" Your claim that we're not following the BRB to resolve attacks is ludicrous given that the BRB tells us how to resolve attacks that have mortal wounds.

Once again, point by point:
1) It tells you what to do when resolving the stratagem, and says nothing about resolving the attack. There is no language to indicate it is a substitution, and since you already have permission to resolve the rest of the shooting attack, we must conclude that it is extra.

2) You misunderstand me - I know how to resolve the stratagem as, you're right, mortal wounds are clear. But the attack, which is still ongoing, is resolved using the normal shooting rules for the weapon. The stratagem does not replace the normal attack, as in order to do so, it would have to say it does, as with the Daemon Bolt stratagem.

1) The hit roll is the attack - it's resolved as of the d3 mortal wounds.

2) The attack also doesn't say anything about the normal attack continuing to be resolved.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

Because it's incorrect

1) [Citation Needed]
2) Right, it doesn't say anything about it - which means you do it, because the BRB does say something about it (which is to do it).

Show me why it is incorrect.

**doctortom**

The citation for the "citation needed" is the flakk missiles stratagem itself

"You may only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase, however, add 1 to the hit roll and, if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds"

Note that it tells you what to do if you hit. This means that when you resolve, you resolve after the hit based on what you are told in the stratagem. Note that it does not tell you that the mortal wounds is in additiion to anything. Therefore you do not get to assume that it's in additiion to anything.

**Unit1126PLL**

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

It's not overriding what the BRB "madates" you do on a successful hit roll. Then surely you should do what the BRB says to do on a successful To-Hit roll with a weapon profile, and move on to wound? The rules for mortal wounds are also part of the BRB and you follow those. When resolving the stratagem, yes You are told you do not roll to wound for mortal wounds. You have to be told that you do both mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound, Which you are told to do - the BRB tells you to do the normal wound, and the stratagem tells you to do the mortal wounds and the flakk missiles stratagem does not tell you to do that. I never said it did? Therefore you do only mortal wounds, For the stratagem, yes and follow what the BRB mandates you do by following the mortal wounds rules For the stratagem, yes and ignoring the to wound roll since you have not been instructed that you have any normal wounds that you have to make a to wound roll for. yes you have been, by the BRB - you have a hit, and the next step in the shooting process is to roll to wound

Comments in red.

**Tristanleo**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

**Unit1126PLL**

doctortom wrote:
The citation for the "citation needed" is the flakk missiles stratagem itself

"You may only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase, however, add 1 to the hit roll and, if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds"

Note that it tells you what to do if you it. Note that it does not tell you that this is in additiion to anything. Therefore you do not get to assume that it's in additiion to anything.

I'm not assuming it's in addition to anything - I'm following the instructions in the BRB.

The instructions on attacking in the BRB is "after you roll to hit, you move on to roll to wound, etc."

The instructions on the Flak Missile stratagem are "after you roll to hit, the target suffers d3 mortal wounds."

Nothing about the latter removes the instructions from the former - it merely adds to them.

**daedalus**

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Incorrect. Telling you what you do after a hit overrides what you would normally do after a hit. It would need to specify the mortal wounds are in addition to the normal damage if it's not substituting for the normal damage. It doesn't specify, it merely states that you do mortal d3 Mortal wounds when you hit, therefore that's all you're entitled to do.

Lets try your ruling with a different stratagem and see if it seems reasonable.

In the Mordian Volley Fire stratagem:

Would you say that the hit roll of 6+ means that you don't roll to wound with that hit, since it tells you to immediately attack again? I mean, it only specifies that you attack again if you roll it. It doesn't actually specify that you do anything with that hit roll beyond fire again, so that must be the case, right?

**Unit1126PLL**

Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

Oh really? Then yes, the Daemon Shell and Hellfire stratagems allow normal shots to be resolved as well. I assumed they explicitly replaced the shooting process.

And what do you mean by "second element?" I don't know where that wording comes from.

**Jacksmiles**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

1) is not an assumption, because the stratagem does not replace the attack. If it does, please cite where it says so. The language of the stratagem lacks the portion you've implied with your "then" statement: where does it say it is not firing one of the two normal profiles?

2) Show me the conflict that I might see it.

3) The game breaks. Better not chose the d6 profile then! Fortunately there's another profile to choose that requires one hit roll, so there's a way to avert breaking the game while still following its internal logic. If you do want to pick the d6 shots one, there's nothing stopping you though; but you've just broken 40k RAW.

4) The BRB forces you to follow steps from shooting. It is non-optional. The stratagem does not replace or revoke this mandate.

1) It is an assumption. And since the stratagem does replace the attack, the "then" statement works just fine

1a) In your 3, you say you can't use one of the two profiles, but here you ask where it says you're not firing one of them. Which is it? Do you get to choose one, or can you not select one and are forced to select the other? Where does it say this?

2) I never said there was any - I said just because you don't see any doesn't make you right.

3) Sounds like you're coming around.

4) Special rules don't alter how things work anymore?

**Unit1126PLL**

Jacksmiles wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

1) is not an assumption, because the stratagem does not replace the attack. If it does, please cite where it says so. The language of the stratagem lacks the portion you've implied with your "then" statement: where does it say it is not firing one of the two normal profiles?

2) Show me the conflict that I might see it.

3) The game breaks. Better not chose the d6 profile then! Fortunately there's another profile to choose that requires one hit roll, so there's a way to avert breaking the game while still following its internal logic. If you do want to pick the d6 shots one, there's nothing stopping you though; but you've just broken 40k RAW.

4) The BRB forces you to follow steps from shooting. It is non-optional. The stratagem does not replace or revoke this mandate.

1) It is an assumption. And since the stratagem does replace the attack, the "then" statement works just fine
1a) In your 3, you say you can't use one of the two profiles, but here you ask where it says you're not firing one of them. Which is it? Do you get to choose one, or can you not select one and are forced to select the other? Where does it say this?

1) how do you know the stratagem replaces the attack? Where does it say this?
1a) I say you can, actually. You can choose the frag missile profile if you want. But doing so causes the game to break, so I would advise against it. That's all I meant.

2) I never said there was any - I said just because you don't see any doesn't make you right.

2) There has to be a conflict because if there's no conflict than there's no reason you can't follow both rules.

3) Sounds like you're coming around.

3) No, I just think Frag Missiles break the game when selected with the Flak Missile stratagem.

4) Special rules don't alter how things work anymore?

4) They only do if there's conflict and you are forced to choose which instruction to follow. Hence the importance of #2

Comments in the quote.

**Tristanleo**

daedalus wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Incorrect. Telling you what you do after a hit overrides what you would normally do after a hit. It would need to specify the mortal wounds are in addition to the normal damage if it's not substituting for the normal damage. It doesn't specify, it merely states that you do mortal d3 Mortal wounds when you hit, therefore that's all you're entitled to do.

Lets try your ruling with a different stratagem and see if it seems reasonable.

In the Mordian Volley Fire stratagem:

Would you say that the hit roll of 6+ means that you don't roll to wound with that hit, since it tells you to immediately attack again? I mean, it only specifies that you attack again if you roll it. It doesn't actually specify that you do anything with that hit roll beyond fire again, so that must be the case, right?

Except in this instance you have not moved on to the wounding phase yet, you are being given additional instructions to carry out within the same phase.

The Flakk missile stratagem informs you to move from the hit stage phase directly to the wounding stage. you don't then go back to a latter stage.

**Unit1126PLL**

Tristanleo wrote:
daedalus wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Incorrect. Telling you what you do after a hit overrides what you would normally do after a hit. It would need to specify the mortal wounds are in addition to the normal damage if it's not substituting for the normal damage. It doesn't specify, it merely states that you do mortal d3 Mortal wounds when you hit, therefore that's all you're entitled to do.

Lets try your ruling with a different stratagem and see if it seems reasonable.

In the Mordian Volley Fire stratagem:

Would you say that the hit roll of 6+ means that you don't roll to wound with that hit, since it tells you to immediately attack again? I mean, it only specifies that you attack again if you roll it. It doesn't actually specify that you do anything with that hit roll beyond fire again, so that must be the case, right?

Except in this instance you have not moved on to the wounding phase yet, you are being given additional instructions to carry out within the same phase.

The Flakk missile stratagem informs you to move from the hit stage phase directly to the wounding stage. you don't then go back to a latter stage.

What? No, the Flakk Missile stratagem doesn't say anything about the normal shooting sequence at all.

It just tells you what happens after you pass a hit roll - without directly contradicting or even referencing the normal shooting rules in the BRB which you must also follow as the BRB mandates.

**Tristanleo**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

Oh really? Then yes, the Daemon Shell and Hellfire stratagems allow normal shots to be resolved as well. I assumed they explicitly replaced the shooting process.

And what do you mean by "second element?" I don't know where that wording comes from.

by second element, I'm referring to the Krak/ Frag missile that you are using as the actual weapon profile to resolve, exactly as I described. you're replacing the frak/ krak missile for the Flakk missile using the stratagem.

**doctortom**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

It's not overriding what the BRB "madates" you do on a successful hit roll. Then surely you should do what the BRB says to do on a successful To-Hit roll with a weapon profile, and move on to wound? The rules for mortal wounds are also part of the BRB and you follow those. When resolving the stratagem, yes You are told you do not roll to wound for mortal wounds. You have to be told that you do both mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound, Which you are told to do - the BRB tells you to do the normal wound, and the stratagem tells you to do the mortal wounds and the flakk missiles stratagem does not tell you to do that. I never said it did? Therefore you do only mortal wounds, For the stratagem, yes and follow what the BRB mandates you do by following the mortal wounds rules For the stratagem, yes and ignoring the to wound roll since you have not been instructed that you have any normal wounds that you have to make a to wound roll for. yes you have been, by the BRB - you have a hit, and the next step in the shooting process is to roll to wound

Comments in red.

I've addressed this already. You are told by the stratagem that you do d3 mortal wounds on a successful hit. You don't get to assume that you do any more than that because you are not instructed to do any more than that. The BRB tells you how to handle mortal wounds, so you are following BRB mandates when you follow the rules for mortal wounds. The BRB does not mandate a to wound roll if you have only mortal wounds being inflicted, as per the mortal wounds sidebar. The BRB does not tell you that you have to make a to wound roll when all you have is mortal wounds to resolve. The stratagem overrides the normal damage rules for the missiles with its statement that on a hit you inflict d3 mortal wounds. Since that's all it states, that's all you get. The BRB "mandates" you claim are still followed - you do not roll to wound because as per your instructions all you are told to do after the hit is to inflict d3 mortal wounds. You have still not provided substantial proof that the normal wound/damage still exists when we have been told that we instead do D3 mortal wounds.

**Unit1126PLL**

Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

Oh really? Then yes, the Daemon Shell and Hellfire stratagems allow normal shots to be resolved as well. I assumed they explicitly replaced the shooting process.

And what do you mean by "second element?" I don't know where that wording comes from.

by second element, I'm referring to the Krak/ Frag missile that you are using as the actual weapon profile to resolve, exactly as I described. you're replacing the frak/ krak missile for the Flakk missile using the stratagem.

[Citation needed] for the red part.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

It's not overriding what the BRB "madates" you do on a successful hit roll. Then surely you should do what the BRB says to do on a successful To-Hit roll with a weapon profile, and move on to wound? The rules for mortal wounds are also part of the BRB and you follow those. When resolving the stratagem, yes You are told you do not roll to wound for mortal wounds. You have to be told that you do both mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound, Which you are told to do - the BRB tells you to do the normal wound, and the stratagem tells you to do the mortal wounds and the flakk missiles stratagem does not tell you to do that. I never said it did? Therefore you do only mortal wounds, For the stratagem, yes and follow what the BRB mandates you do by following the mortal wounds rules For the stratagem, yes and ignoring the to wound roll since you have not been instructed that you have any normal wounds that you have to make a to wound roll for. yes you have been, by the BRB - you have a hit, and the next step in the shooting process is to roll to wound

Comments in red.

I've addressed this already. You are told by the stratagem that you do d3 mortal wounds on a successful hit. You don't get to assume that you do any more than that because you are not instructed to do any more than that. Yes you are, by the BRB's shooting process. The BRB tells you how to handle mortal wounds, so you are following BRB mandates when you follow the rules for mortal wounds. I never said you didn't? The BRB does not mandate a to wound roll if you have only mortal wounds being inflicted, as per the mortal wounds sidebar. Yes, but you don't only have mortal wounds being inflicted - you also have an attack with the Missile Launcher you just made a To-Hit roll with as well The BRB does not tell you that you have to make a to wound roll when all you have is mortal wounds to resolve. I never said otherwise? But you have more than Mortal Wounds to deal with in this shooting processs The stratagem overrides the normal damage rules for the missiles with its statement that on a hit you inflict d3 mortal wounds. [Citation Needed] Since that's all it states, that's all you get. It never uses the word replace or override anywhere in the stratagem; cite please why or how it overrides the normal damage rules for the missiles? The BRB "mandates" you claim are still followed - you do not roll to wound because as per your instructions all you are told to do after the hit is to inflict d3 mortal wounds. By the stratagem. What have you done with the rest of the attack the stratagem didn't replace? You have still not provided substantial proof that the normal wound/damage still exists when we have been told that we instead do D3 mortal wounds.I don't have to prove it still exists - the BRB says it exists, and the stratagem does not say anywhere that it replaces or overrides it. You have to prove that the stratagem somehow does just that.

Comments in red.

**doctortom**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
The citation for the "citation needed" is the flakk missiles stratagem itself

"You may only make a single hit roll with the weapon this phase, however, add 1 to the hit roll and, if it hits, the target suffers D3 mortal wounds"

Note that it tells you what to do if you it. Note that it does not tell you that this is in additiion to anything. Therefore you do not get to assume that it's in additiion to anything.

I'm not assuming it's in addition to anything - I'm following the instructions in the BRB.

The instructions on attacking in the BRB is "after you roll to hit, you move on to roll to wound, etc."

The instructions on the Flak Missile stratagem are "after you roll to hit, the target suffers d3 mortal wounds."

Nothing about the latter removes the instructions from the former - it merely adds to them.

No, you aren't following the instructions in the BRB. The stratagem tells you that if you hit you inflict D3 mortal wounds. The Mortal wounds sidebar tells you that you do not roll to wound. Therefore, saying that there's a to wound roll involved in the BRB process to justify saying that there has to be normal damage still, when we are instructed that you do not make the to wound roll when you don't have a normal wound is incorrect. You still have to show that there's a normal wound in addition. The stratagem replaces the normal damage, so you have to show how you still get normal damage in addition to the damage that overwrites the damage you're trying to claim that you do.

You're saying you have to make a to wound roll, therefore everything has to inflict normal wounds in order to be able to make the to wound roll is actually circular reasoning when you try to justify keeping the normal damage in addition. It doesn't work.

**daedalus**

Tristanleo wrote:
daedalus wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Incorrect. Telling you what you do after a hit overrides what you would normally do after a hit. It would need to specify the mortal wounds are in addition to the normal damage if it's not substituting for the normal damage. It doesn't specify, it merely states that you do mortal d3 Mortal wounds when you hit, therefore that's all you're entitled to do.

Lets try your ruling with a different stratagem and see if it seems reasonable.

In the Mordian Volley Fire stratagem:

Would you say that the hit roll of 6+ means that you don't roll to wound with that hit, since it tells you to immediately attack again? I mean, it only specifies that you attack again if you roll it. It doesn't actually specify that you do anything with that hit roll beyond fire again, so that must be the case, right?

Except in this instance you have not moved on to the wounding phase yet, you are being given additional instructions to carry out within the same phase.

The Flakk missile stratagem informs you to move from the hit stage phase directly to the wounding stage. you don't then go back to a latter stage.

First off, there's nothing saying that the generation of mortal wound can't happen at any point. It doesn't tell you to move forward to the wound phase, because it's caused the mortal wounds. It's not said to allocate them yet, which is the next step after the wound roll. Those you "just allocate as you would any other wound".

And even by your logic: You determine number of attacks in step 3. Step 4, substep 1 is hit rolls. Step 4, substep 2 is wound rolls with Step 4, substep 3 being allocation. If you're going to use that rationale, adding extra firing retroactively to the unit via the Mordian stratagem is LITERALLY further backwards stage-wise than the roll to wound is for the flakk missile.

**doctortom**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

Oh really? Then yes, the Daemon Shell and Hellfire stratagems allow normal shots to be resolved as well. I assumed they explicitly replaced the shooting process.

And what do you mean by "second element?" I don't know where that wording comes from.

by second element, I'm referring to the Krak/ Frag missile that you are using as the actual weapon profile to resolve, exactly as I described. you're replacing the frak/ krak missile for the Flakk missile using the stratagem.

[Citation needed] for the red part.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

Yes it is - it's an override of the wounds/damage you do since it tells you what you do when you hit.

It tells you what to do when you hit, but also does not revoke permission to do what the BRB mandates you do on a successful hit roll.

Why is this hard?

It's not overriding what the BRB "madates" you do on a successful hit roll. Then surely you should do what the BRB says to do on a successful To-Hit roll with a weapon profile, and move on to wound? The rules for mortal wounds are also part of the BRB and you follow those. When resolving the stratagem, yes You are told you do not roll to wound for mortal wounds. You have to be told that you do both mortal wounds in addition to a normal wound, Which you are told to do - the BRB tells you to do the normal wound, and the stratagem tells you to do the mortal wounds and the flakk missiles stratagem does not tell you to do that. I never said it did? Therefore you do only mortal wounds, For the stratagem, yes and follow what the BRB mandates you do by following the mortal wounds rules For the stratagem, yes and ignoring the to wound roll since you have not been instructed that you have any normal wounds that you have to make a to wound roll for. yes you have been, by the BRB - you have a hit, and the next step in the shooting process is to roll to wound

Comments in red.

I've addressed this already. You are told by the stratagem that you do d3 mortal wounds on a successful hit. You don't get to assume that you do any more than that because you are not instructed to do any more than that. Yes you are, by the BRB's shooting process. The BRB tells you how to handle mortal wounds, so you are following BRB mandates when you follow the rules for mortal wounds. I never said you didn't? The BRB does not mandate a to wound roll if you have only mortal wounds being inflicted, as per the mortal wounds sidebar. Yes, but you don't only have mortal wounds being inflicted - you also have an attack with the Missile Launcher you just made a To-Hit roll with as well The BRB does not tell you that you have to make a to wound roll when all you have is mortal wounds to resolve. I never said otherwise? But you have more than Mortal Wounds to deal with in this shooting processs The stratagem overrides the normal damage rules for the missiles with its statement that on a hit you inflict d3 mortal wounds. [Citation Needed] Since that's all it states, that's all you get. It never uses the word replace or override anywhere in the stratagem; cite please why or how it overrides the normal damage rules for the missiles? The BRB "mandates" you claim are still followed - you do not roll to wound because as per your instructions all you are told to do after the hit is to inflict d3 mortal wounds. By the stratagem. What have you done with the rest of the attack the stratagem didn't replace? You have still not provided substantial proof that the normal wound/damage still exists when we have been told that we instead do D3 mortal wounds.I don't have to prove it still exists - the BRB says it exists, and the stratagem does not say anywhere that it replaces or overrides it. You have to prove that the stratagem somehow does just that.

Comments in red.

Please try this again, breaking out the points instead of just sticking in the comments in read inside my quote. It's hard to break down your comments and respond to them properly when you're doing it to this extent.

**Unit1126PLL**

OKAY, let me posit this chain of events, to try to clear things up:

You use the Stratagem and choose a missile launcher to fire.

You select a profile of the missile launcher (frag or krak) as you do when firing any weapon.

If you choose frag, you roll for number of shots, and then the game breaks, as there is a direct conflict between the BRB and the Flak Missile stratagem, unless you rolled a 1 for number of shots, and then you continue per Krak Missile, below.

If you choose Krak, then you roll to hit (with a +1 modifier from the stratagem).

IF YOU HIT:

1) you do d3 mortal wounds per the stratagem (And thusly the stratagem is satisfactorily resolved)

AND

2) you continue to resolve it as a krak missile (because nothing tells you not to).

That's my reasoning.

**Tristanleo**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

Oh really? Then yes, the Daemon Shell and Hellfire stratagems allow normal shots to be resolved as well. I assumed they explicitly replaced the shooting process.

And what do you mean by "second element?" I don't know where that wording comes from.

by second element, I'm referring to the Krak/ Frag missile that you are using as the actual weapon profile to resolve, exactly as I described. you're replacing the frak/ krak missile for the Flakk missile using the stratagem.

[Citation needed] for the red part.

The stratagem tells you to make a single Hit roll with a +1 and to deal D3 damage if it hits. What more do you need?

The Stratagem tells you to make one hit roll and resolve what happens if that hit succeeds.

**Unit1126PLL**

Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Isn't the Flakk missile Stratagem just an override of the usual weapon profile, just like the Daemon bolt stratagem is an override for shooting a bolt weapon?

No, it isn't, because unlike the Daemon Bolt stratagem it does not anywhere indicate it overrides the usual weapon profile.

Neither does the daemon shell stratagem, it just says you only make a single hit roll, same as worded with flakk missile, so wouldn't that mean that I would still get the boltgun shot roll to wound, or hell, even the Hellfire round stratagem for space marine heavy bolters. they are all worded the same.

The stratagem allows you to bypass wound and armour rolls for instant damage with it's profile, therefore there is no second element to the missile such as a krak or frag hit, so no resolution of any further along the chain is required.

Oh really? Then yes, the Daemon Shell and Hellfire stratagems allow normal shots to be resolved as well. I assumed they explicitly replaced the shooting process.

And what do you mean by "second element?" I don't know where that wording comes from.

by second element, I'm referring to the Krak/ Frag missile that you are using as the actual weapon profile to resolve, exactly as I described. you're replacing the frak/ krak missile for the Flakk missile using the stratagem.

[Citation needed] for the red part.

The stratagem tells you to make a single Hit roll with a +1 and to deal D3 damage if it hits. What more do you need?

The Stratagem tells you to make one hit roll and resolve what happens if that hit succeeds.

Yes but you've also attacked with the weapon, yes? Or can you fire it later using a different missile at a different target?

**Tristanleo**

Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

**doctortom**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

However, the stratagem has nowhere overridden going through the rest of the shooting steps for the normal weapon profile as well - which is mandatory. So you have to show why or how the stratagem stops the normal weapon resolution steps from continuing once it's already done it's d3 mortal wounds.

The stratagem isn't overriding the rest of the shooting steps - the normal steps for when all you have is mortal damage is to not make a to wound roll. All the stratagem does here is override the normal damage with what it tells you to to if you hit - inflict d3 mortal wounds. You follow the normal shooting steps for inflicting d3 mortal wounds. You have to show how when you are told to inflict d3 mortal wounds that it mystically becomes d3 mortal wounds + 1 normal wound when that normal wound is in not mentioned as something to be resolved after hitting.

**Unit1126PLL**

Tristanleo wrote:
Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

Yes, but you still get to to reference a profile.

In fact, you HAVE TO, otherwise you have no idea the missile launcher's range.

**daedalus**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you choose frag, you roll for number of shots, and then the game breaks, as there is a direct conflict between the BRB and the Flak Missile stratagem, unless you rolled a 1 for number of shots, and then you continue per Krak Missile, below.

This part I actually disagree with. It looks like even if you roll more, you can only make 1 with it. I mean, given that they bother to spell out that you "can only make a single roll", it's sort of blatantly saying that you can choose a profile. And if it expects you to need to choose a profile...

**Unit1126PLL**

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

However, the stratagem has nowhere overridden going through the rest of the shooting steps for the normal weapon profile as well - which is mandatory. So you have to show why or how the stratagem stops the normal weapon resolution steps from continuing once it's already done it's d3 mortal wounds.

The stratagem isn't overriding the rest of the shooting steps - the normal steps for when all you have is mortal damage is to not make a to wound roll. All the stratagem does here is override the normal damage with what it tells you to to if you hit - inflict d3 mortal wounds. You follow the normal shooting steps for inflicting d3 mortal wounds. You have to show how when you are told to inflict d3 mortal wounds that it mystically becomes d3 mortal wounds + 1 normal wound when that normal wound is in not mentioned as something to be resolved after hitting.

You contradicted yourself - is the stratagem overriding the shooting process, or not?

Because you say it's not, at first, and then you say it overrides the normal damage - but doing normal damage is part of the shooting process.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
If you choose frag, you roll for number of shots, and then the game breaks, as there is a direct conflict between the BRB and the Flak Missile stratagem, unless you rolled a 1 for number of shots, and then you continue per Krak Missile, below.

This part I actually disagree with. It looks like even if you roll more, you can only make 1 with it. I mean, given that they bother to spell out that you "can only make a single roll", it's sort of blatantly saying that you can choose a profile. And if it expects you to need to choose a profile...

That's a fair interpretation as well; you could simply roll a number of shots and then only roll one to-hit roll, regardless of the outcome of the d6 roll for shots. That's kind of tangential to the real argument.

**doctortom**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

Yes, but you still get to to reference a profile.

In fact, you HAVE TO, otherwise you have no idea the missile launcher's range.

The number of shots on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you to make one to hit roll. Likewise, the damage on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you do do D3 mortal wounds if you hit.

**Tristanleo**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

Yes, but you still get to to reference a profile.

In fact, you HAVE TO, otherwise you have no idea the missile launcher's range.

No you don't.

Missile launcher rules tell you to declare a profile when you attack, Flakk missile stratagem states it has to be used before you attack. therefore, RAW, Flakk missiles ignore range.

**Unit1126PLL**

doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

Yes, but you still get to to reference a profile.

In fact, you HAVE TO, otherwise you have no idea the missile launcher's range.

The number of shots on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you to make one to hit roll. Likewise, the damage on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you do do D3 mortal wounds if you hit.

Where does it actually say this? Or are you asserting it with no citations?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tristanleo wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

Yes, but you still get to to reference a profile.

In fact, you HAVE TO, otherwise you have no idea the missile launcher's range.

No you don't.

Missile launcher rules tell you to declare a profile when you attack, Flakk missile stratagem states it has to be used before you attack. therefore, RAW, Flakk missiles ignore range.

If they're used before you attack, then surely the missile launcher is eligible to make an attack later in the turn, as every shooting weapon has permission to make an attack in the shooting phase, and nowhere does the stratagem say it is an attack.

**daedalus**

doctortom wrote:
The number of shots on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you to make one to hit roll. Likewise, the damage on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you do do D3 mortal wounds if you hit.

So then does volley fire override rolling to wound on a roll of 6 to hit because it specifies you to do something?

**doctortom**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

However, the stratagem has nowhere overridden going through the rest of the shooting steps for the normal weapon profile as well - which is mandatory. So you have to show why or how the stratagem stops the normal weapon resolution steps from continuing once it's already done it's d3 mortal wounds.

The stratagem isn't overriding the rest of the shooting steps - the normal steps for when all you have is mortal damage is to not make a to wound roll. All the stratagem does here is override the normal damage with what it tells you to to if you hit - inflict d3 mortal wounds. You follow the normal shooting steps for inflicting d3 mortal wounds. You have to show how when you are told to inflict d3 mortal wounds that it mystically becomes d3 mortal wounds + 1 normal wound when that normal wound is in not mentioned as something to be resolved after hitting.

You contradicted yourself - is the stratagem overriding the shooting process, or not?

Because you say it's not, at first, and then you say it overrides the normal damage - but doing normal damage is part of the shooting process.

.

It overrides the damage done by the weapon. That's not overriding the shooting process. The normal shooting process does not involve making a to wound roll for any mortal wounds. No contradiction.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
doctortom wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Tristanleo wrote:
Further to this, It is when you declare you are firing with the missile launcher, before you have declared it's profile.

Yes, but you still get to to reference a profile.

In fact, you HAVE TO, otherwise you have no idea the missile launcher's range.

The number of shots on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you to make one to hit roll. Likewise, the damage on the profile is overridden by the stratagem, which tells you do do D3 mortal wounds if you hit.

Where does it actually say this? Or are you asserting it with no citations?

The citation is the stratagem itself. Read the stratagem. It tells you you only make one to hit roll. It tells you what you do if you hit. If you do more than what it instructs you to do when you hit, then you aren't following the rules as instructed by the stratagem.