Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think also part of the issue with army lists is that there's so much that can vary from game to game.

IIRC, the difference came down to a single Relic, which cost CP to be taken (meaning it may not be taken every game), and which does not even have to be written on the Army List and was probably only there for convenience.

If he hadn't written the Relic onto the list, and just taken it every game paying the CP beforehand like the game intends, then there would even be no way of knowing if it was wrong ever.

This is incorrect, in all the books I own at least, it says at the top of the page where relics rules are listed that you must write down which model is carrying which relic on your army roster for matched play. If he was doing what your suggesting then he was breaking the rules, even if it was unintentional.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think also part of the issue with army lists is that there's so much that can vary from game to game.

IIRC, the difference came down to a single Relic, which cost CP to be taken (meaning it may not be taken every game), and which does not even have to be written on the Army List and was probably only there for convenience.

If he hadn't written the Relic onto the list, and just taken it every game paying the CP beforehand like the game intends, then there would even be no way of knowing if it was wrong ever.

This is incorrect, in all the books I own at least, it says at the top of the page where relics rules are listed that you must write down which model is carrying which relic on your army roster for matched play. If he was doing what your suggesting then he was breaking the rules, even if it was unintentional.

Wait is this true?

Because you use the Stratagem to get extra relics after you've built your list and before any given game.

Does that mean that if you write an extra relic down, you must pay the CP for it, even if you run out of CP?

And if you don't write it down, are you forbidden from ever using the stratagem to get an extra relic?

 Byte wrote:

fyrblckdragon wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Just use PL instead of points (but most matched play restrictions otherwise, such as Stratagems once per turn).

- Quick and easy to check
- Unexpected meta shake-up that is harder to netlist
- Free Heavy Weapon and such deemphasise the spamming of cheep chaff and makes Primarchs/Superheavies slightly less scary

This is what I'm choosing to do for the Gentlemen's at Adepticon, and the friendly events at Dragon-Fall.

When I ran a few primers, this seemed to fix most of the problems (along with allowing 2 lists- both reviewed ahead of time).

So straight PL with any available weapon option?

Yes. I was skeptical, hence running a few trial smaller events. What ends up happening, is that every book/index has a unit or two that have tons of expensive options - so it balances out. Titans and big guys aren't really an issue, as you have a "sideboard list" with heavy Anti Tank/MC. Because of game theory, what realistically seems to happen is that everyone takes a TAC list as their first option, and a slanted list as their second. The slanted list seems to only come out to punish those that abuse the PL mechanic.

It's not perfect, but I like it better than niggling over every last point. It's been working for our Gentlemen's Agreement league as well as the Highlander (There can be only one, or "no spamming") restrictions did in 7th.

Also - when you stop worrying about taking 7 guys instead of 8, the min/max tendencies seem to go away too. You build units the way you want to.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it does as I run more events, but yes, PL with Matched play restrictions seems to work better than points for my events. And not using book missions

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think also part of the issue with army lists is that there's so much that can vary from game to game.

IIRC, the difference came down to a single Relic, which cost CP to be taken (meaning it may not be taken every game), and which does not even have to be written on the Army List and was probably only there for convenience.

If he hadn't written the Relic onto the list, and just taken it every game paying the CP beforehand like the game intends, then there would even be no way of knowing if it was wrong ever.

This is incorrect, in all the books I own at least, it says at the top of the page where relics rules are listed that you must write down which model is carrying which relic on your army roster for matched play. If he was doing what your suggesting then he was breaking the rules, even if it was unintentional.

Wait is this true?

Because you use the Stratagem to get extra relics after you've built your list and before any given game.

Does that mean that if you write an extra relic down, you must pay the CP for it, even if you run out of CP?

And if you don't write it down, are you forbidden from ever using the stratagem to get an extra relic?

I can confirm the Grey Knights one does say that. I believe the correct interpretation is that you use the stratagem during list building as the stratagem just says "before the battle".

Audustum wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think also part of the issue with army lists is that there's so much that can vary from game to game.

IIRC, the difference came down to a single Relic, which cost CP to be taken (meaning it may not be taken every game), and which does not even have to be written on the Army List and was probably only there for convenience.

If he hadn't written the Relic onto the list, and just taken it every game paying the CP beforehand like the game intends, then there would even be no way of knowing if it was wrong ever.

This is incorrect, in all the books I own at least, it says at the top of the page where relics rules are listed that you must write down which model is carrying which relic on your army roster for matched play. If he was doing what your suggesting then he was breaking the rules, even if it was unintentional.

Wait is this true?

Because you use the Stratagem to get extra relics after you've built your list and before any given game.

Does that mean that if you write an extra relic down, you must pay the CP for it, even if you run out of CP?

And if you don't write it down, are you forbidden from ever using the stratagem to get an extra relic?

I can confirm the Grey Knights one does say that. I believe the correct interpretation is that you use the stratagem during list building as the stratagem just says "before the battle".

Interesting...

So then it is conceivable to start a game with 0 command points! Thanks!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Audustum wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think also part of the issue with army lists is that there's so much that can vary from game to game.

IIRC, the difference came down to a single Relic, which cost CP to be taken (meaning it may not be taken every game), and which does not even have to be written on the Army List and was probably only there for convenience.

If he hadn't written the Relic onto the list, and just taken it every game paying the CP beforehand like the game intends, then there would even be no way of knowing if it was wrong ever.

This is incorrect, in all the books I own at least, it says at the top of the page where relics rules are listed that you must write down which model is carrying which relic on your army roster for matched play. If he was doing what your suggesting then he was breaking the rules, even if it was unintentional.

Wait is this true?

Because you use the Stratagem to get extra relics after you've built your list and before any given game.

Does that mean that if you write an extra relic down, you must pay the CP for it, even if you run out of CP?

And if you don't write it down, are you forbidden from ever using the stratagem to get an extra relic?

I can confirm the Grey Knights one does say that. I believe the correct interpretation is that you use the stratagem during list building as the stratagem just says "before the battle".

Interesting...

So then it is conceivable to start a game with 0 command points! Thanks!

Oh yeah, you absolutely can. Take a Vanguard/Outrider/Spearhead detachment, upgrade a Captain to Chapter Master and hand out 2 relics. Bam. 0 CP start.