Should Blood Angels be rolled into the regular Space Marine codex at this point?

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**Slayer-Fan123**

In order to help keep the Blood Angels rumor thread clean, I decided I would make this thread. There are obviously many complaints about the game, but one that stands out is Codex Bloat for Space Marines. Obviously Space Marines are a super favorite army to GW and their cash cow, but I want to avoid the hating on Space Marines and ask: Do any of the diverging codices here deserve to have their own Codex, and do they really have much unique going on that nobody else should have? People have tons of opinions on this, how it would be done, etc., but I don't intend for this to be a Proposed Rules thread. Now if it becomes bloated like that, the mods can easily move it to the appropriate subforum.

I've made it known how I feel about both Angels armies having their own codices, especially with last edition's trainwrecks of codex writing and supplement bloat. I of course support a move to the main vanilla codex for the following varying reasons:
1. Neither of the Angels codices have ever been great in terms of playing. The forced separation of which wargear Chapters can and can't have made them less competitive, as their "unique" options weren't cutting it.
2. The amount of unique units isn't very high. Especially with the advent of the new Marine codex, Blood Angels only have Death Company and their Dread their main unique unit outside Special Characters. They used to have the Sanguine Priest, but the generic Apothecary is his own character now. Furioso Dreads have basically been Ironclad Dreads the entire time. Dark Angels have this even worse as only the Fliers are entirely unique designs themselves. Nobody was mixing weapons in Deathwing anyway, the Apothecary Terminator is his own unit, which makes one of the more unique parts of the Deathwing (the Command Squad itself) undone. The Deathwing and Ravenwing Knights are still neat though.
3. Inconsistencies in how wargear would be distributed in fluff. There's not a single Blood Angels or Dark Angels successor with Centurion suits or Thunderfire Cannons? The Imperial Fists have never interred a Librarian into a Dreadnought?
4. I'm slightly butthurt my Tactical Marines lost Heavy Flamers, so then they didn't even get to keep the role they did at a mediocre level of delivering Templates.

**Melissia**

Nah. They should instead make more variant codices for OTHER armies.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Melissia wrote:
Nah. They should instead make more variant codices for OTHER armies.

Mind elaborating? That's a super vague post.

**Galef**

You didn't put an option in the poll for BAs and DAs to be rolled into the same codex.
After all, both chapters premiered together in the original Angels of Death codex.

If each new book must have 5-8 '"attributes", you could easily have the following:
Dark Angels
Deathwing
Ravenwing
Blood Angels
Death company

These would replace a unit's <Chapter Tactics> in the same way as the Vanilla marine codex, although there would clearly be units that had set tactics.

-

**Melissia**

Also, your poll is biased and obnoxious.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Melissia wrote:
Also, your poll is biased and obnoxious.

What's biased?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Galef wrote:
You didn't put an option in the poll for BAs and DAs to be rolled into the same codex.
After all, both chapters premiered together in the original Angels of Death codex.

-

Eh I can add that as an option. Why not?

**Marmatag**

There's not a whole lot worth taking in the SM codex. They should get their own, in the hopes that they get buffed into usefulness.

**Galas**

Nah we should just squat all xenos. That way we could have more Space Marine Codex instead.

Who want Craftworld Eldar or Orks when you can play as the ULTRA EXCITING WHITE CONSULS?

**Pilum**

In terms of their actual TO&E, the argument is strong; they are, more or less, a Codex-compliant chapter with a fluff-based fondness for rapid, short-range combat, and if Templars Crusaders can be accommodated as an individual entry, I’m sure Death Company could as well (even if I retain a slight nostalgic fondness for the old ‘roll a dice for each marine’ method!). Idiosyncratic armament options and upgrades for their vehicles could be added easily enough, and perhaps ‘modelling advice’ to hint at which to choose (for each chapter tradition - nothing compulsory, as not every Predator in the arsenal will be Baal pattern after all).

But. I can’t help feeling that the Blood Angels have ... something about them, something that merits their full saga to be told in its own right, not simply a three or four page spread in Codex: Everyone. I have no real reason for this, probably just because they were one of the Faces of the game when I first got seriously into it (some point before 2nd dropped)

**Bremon**

Where’s the option for things to remain as-is, since fists, Raven Guard, etc. are first founding but codex compliant so don’t need their own book.

**Galef**

That's why I hope they combine DAs and BAs. Both are "Angels", both premiered in the same book originally, both are "codex-compliant" for the most part, but both also have a wealth of extra lore that merits special attention

Neither should be "rolled" into the Vanilla Codex, but it could be interesting to see them share the same book again. With the way Keywords work, this could easily be done in a way that still requires a whole detachment to be one or the other to gain Stratagems.

This of Crusader units & special characters in the vanilla Codex. Those units already have a set "Chapter". You could do the same thing with Deathwing Knights, Sanguinary Guard, etc. but have them share units like Tacticals, Rhinos/ razorbacks, etc. It could be like Vanilla Marine Codex II: the Neapolitan version

-

**gnome_idea_what**

I would say that Space Wolves have enough unique stuff and miss out on enough vanilla options for them to justifiably get their own codex.

Right now both Dark Angels and Blood Angels have enough wargear options associated with each of them (and a few stubborn units that refuse to be rolled into vanilla units) to make a vanilla codex with both BA and DA fairly confusing. The main problem would be wargear lists for units being a pain to navigate, with annoying amounts of exceptions for units like tacticals and termies. Also, keyword: [any chapter except Blood Angels and Dark Angels] just looks bad.

There is a third option alluded to in the poll: changing the vanilla codex to “Codex: Codex-Compliant Astartes,” and bundling all three of the problem chapters along with BT neophytes into “Codex: Non-Codex Astartes,” (or “Codex: Snowflake Marines”). Give each non-Codex chapter a list of forbidden units while letting them take anything else from the codex-compliant book not explicitly disallowed, and voila! Only two codexes for Space Marines, both with enough rules to justify their existence! Of course, this is a pain for the people who have to buy 2 codices to play their army...

**TwinPoleTheory**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Mind elaborating? That's a super vague post.

She's saying everyone deserves soup, even Necrons.

**Melissia**

She, but yes. Necrons get new Dynasty specific books. ORks get their Klan specific books, and a grot army too. And so on. More variety, not less.

**Insectum7**

Isn't "All founding Chapters should have their own codex" meaning Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard etc. should have their own codexes?

And if so why does it have the most votes?

Edit: (And also the Chaos ones?)

**clownshoes**

6 imperium - of which 4 are space marines, ugh
2 chaos aka the fun imperium
2 xenos
And January brings us another chaos book, oh joy.

Looking at what is outstanding...
Sisters of battle
Space dogs
Deathwatch
Imperial Knights/renegade

Sisters of silence?
The janitors?
Assassinorum?
Ministorum?
Inquisition?

Thousand sons
Crimson slaughter?

Necrons
Orkz
T'au
Dark eldar
Harlequins
Ynnari ?
Genestealer cult

With all that needs to come out, ya they could have pulled an index 2.0 for the three founding chapters. But GW could not tarnish the ultramarine codex anymore. It is bad enough people call it the space marine codex.

**Galas**

Insectum7 wrote:
Isn't "All founding Chapters should have their own codex" meaning Salamanders, Iron Hands, Raven Guard etc. should have their own codexes?

And if so why does it have the most votes?

Edit: (And also the Chaos ones?)

Because as much the internet complainers love to be as loud as they can to appear a mayority, people wants more for the rest, not less for everybody.

**LunarSol**

I am pretty much always in favor of fewer codexes. I'd love to see poor forgotten Grey Knights wrapped up with Sisters and Deathwatch into an Inquisition Codex for example. The Indexes left me feeling there was little need for as many Space Marine codexes as there currently are.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Bremon wrote:
Where’s the option for things to remain as-is, since fists, Raven Guard, etc. are first founding but codex compliant so don’t need their own book.

I thought I had that as the last option. Will add.

**Slipspace**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There are obviously many complaints about the game, but one that stands out is Codex Bloat for Space Marines.

Citation needed.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. Neither of the Angels codices have ever been great in terms of playing. The forced separation of which wargear Chapters can and can't have made them less competitive, as their "unique" options weren't cutting it.

Not true. Blood Angels were pretty good at a couple of points in the history of the game, particularly during 3rd edition.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

2. The amount of unique units isn't very high. Especially with the advent of the new Marine codex, Blood Angels only have Death Company and their Dread their main unique unit outside Special Characters. They used to have the Sanguine Priest, but the generic Apothecary is his own character now. Furioso Dreads have basically been Ironclad Dreads the entire time.

Incorrect and inaccurate. Sanguinary Priests are different to Apothecaries, having an aura of their own. Also, you seem to have forgotten about the Baal Predator and Sanguinary Guard. Furiosos really aren't just Ironclads either.

I'm not saying you couldn't roll all SM into one Codex but there's enough uniqueness in the army to keep them separate, IMO. I wouldn't be averse to having an Angels of Death Codex for Dark Angels and Blood Angels, just like in 2nd edition, but that's not really necessary either. I don't see Codex bloat as a major problem anyway. It doesn't affect me as I still need to buy the same number of books and if you weren't going to buy the Codex in the first place you're also unaffected.

**Insectum7**

LunarSol wrote:
I am pretty much always in favor of fewer codexes. I'd love to see poor forgotten Grey Knights wrapped up with Sisters and Deathwatch into an Inquisition Codex for example. The Indexes left me feeling there was little need for as many Space Marine codexes as there currently are.

Agreed indeed.

**TwinPoleTheory**

Slipspace wrote:
Citation needed.

This has been a common complaint for several editions, I don't really think citations are necessary, anyone who's been familiar with the game for more than an edition is aware of this issue. It's only recently and slightly improved in the last few editions by providing soup options to other armies.

Not every group within a faction needs a codex, but options that carry common keywords would help a lot. As someone mentioned, having Goblins to ally with Orks or having some kind of other Undead-esque faction to ally with Necrons.

**Vaktathi**

Roll all of 'em into one codex. Not hard to add a couple chapter specific weapon swaps, a unique chapter tactic, and a couple extra variant units to the core book. Especially DA and BA which have always largely been codex adherent chapters. Would help a lot also with some armies being left without updates or access to stuff for long periods of time.

A lot of the differences are also relatively minor with people sticking to specific mechanics that have varied wildly over time over time when they really just add complexity for its own sake. Stuff like Sanguinary priests, these are Apothecaries, yes they have a different ability, but fundamentally they largely do the same thing, (theyre a support medic unit), any differences could be accounted for through other mechanics like chapter tactics, stratagems, etc without the need for their own unique book.

EDIT: If the galaxy's largest and most diverse fighting force, His Majesty's Most Glorious Imperial Guard, drawn from millions of different worlds and cultures and environments, represented on the table in everything from tank battalions to infantry brigades and artillery companies and VTOL mounted elite airborne commandos and more, can be portrayed with a single codex, surely Space Marines can be

**Arbitrator**

People really think we need more loyalist Space Marine codexes?

Really?

REALLY?

**Galas**

I'm surprised that people is surprised that Space Marines are the most loved faction with the biggest fan group out there

You can gak all over Batman or Superman for being Mary Sues, but they are the protagonists for a reason.
I know, I know, is hard when the silent mayority challenges our perceptions manipulated by the loud minorities (Both positives and negatives ones).
I had that phase too. For some time I believed that Tau where the worst and everybody would hate me for playing them in real life, saying that they didn't belong to Warhammer40k, etc, etc... but then I did played them in dozens of tournaments and casual players and nobody in real life said nothing negative about them. Shocking, I know.

But to be honest I believe most of the people that has voted for every founding legion to have their own codex is just trolling (I know I voted it for that reason

)

**clownshoes**

Arbitrator wrote:
People really think we need more loyalist Space Marine codexes?

Really?

REALLY?

Well ya this is 30k right?

**Wayniac**

I think they have enough, but not enough to warrant a full blown codex. So I voted for "Angels of Death again" since BA and DA both don't have enough things to warrant their own book.

**Arachnofiend**

Melissia wrote:
She, but yes. Necrons get new Dynasty specific books. ORks get their Klan specific books, and a grot army too. And so on. More variety, not less.

I could see there being design space for, say, a Bad Moons Codex for people who want to play a very shooty ork army. Snakebites are probably different enough from standard "Goff-esque" orks too.

Necrons, though... Not sure what you would do with them. Maybe a Mephrit Codex that really doubles down on C'tan Shards? I guess the Maynarkh are as different from the standard Sautekh as Blood Angels are to Ultramarines, though in my eyes that's more of an argument as to why Blood Angels getting their own codex doesn't make a ton of sense. Things like the librarian dreadnought feel less like stuff that is fundamentally "Blood Angels" and more like a standard Space Marine unit that has been shuffled into the Blood Angels codex to justify the Blood Angels codex, I think you'd run into the same problem trying to make special snowflake units for the Maynarkh.

**Insectum7**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Melissia wrote:
She, but yes. Necrons get new Dynasty specific books. ORks get their Klan specific books, and a grot army too. And so on. More variety, not less.

I could see there being design space for, say, a Bad Moons Codex for people who want to play a very shooty ork army. Snakebites are probably different enough from standard "Goff-esque" orks too.

Necrons, though... Not sure what you would do with them. Maybe a Mephrit Codex that really doubles down on C'tan Shards? I guess the Maynarkh are as different from the standard Sautekh as Blood Angels are to Ultramarines, though in my eyes that's more of an argument as to why Blood Angels getting their own codex doesn't make a ton of sense. Things like the librarian dreadnought feel less like stuff that is fundamentally "Blood Angels" and more like a standard Space Marine unit that has been shuffled into the Blood Angels codex to justify the Blood Angels codex, I think you'd run into the same problem trying to make special snowflake units for the Maynarkh.

Codex: Oldcrons/Pariahs

**craggy**

Codex: Angels Of Death was one of the big draws to get me into the hobby, so I'm probably biased. I'd like them both in the same codex, especially if they stick Fallen rules in there too.

Not been keeping up with DA, but loved the look of them when they started rocking the fancy robes, but BA have a bunch of special units, at least in the Index. More units that can take jump packs, 3 dreads, sanguinary priests and guard, Terminator ancients, and of course, Death Company and the Baal Pred. That, along with DC and maybe other tactics, as well as Deathwing, Ravenwing and stuff would surely make enough for a Codex? I like the DA fluff so would be nice to get them in the same book I'll buy for BA.