Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At the time of the crusade yes. But as I said, we have no idea what tech the Emperor had or planned to use if the crusade had succeeded. I find it hard to believe he would have sat on his laurels with legions of space marines kicking their feet with nothing to do.

Flip flopping? I've been citing examples, you're making sweeping statements.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
At the time of the crusade yes. But as I said, we have no idea what tech the Emperor had or planned to use if the crusade had succeeded. I find it hard to believe he would have sat on his laurels with legions of space marines kicking their feet with nothing to do.

Flip flopping? I've been citing examples, you're making sweeping statements.

His plan was to access the Eldar Webway which was limited to our Galaxy. The Space Marines probably would have gone like Thunder Warriors.

You said you disliked the Imperium and Fantasy because they were reactive and never took the fight to Chaos. They only tried reclaiming or defending their territory.
You also said you like Stormcast because they're proactive and actively assault Chaos. To reclaim lost territory. You also said a similar thing about Alarielle and Sylvaneth.

Possibly, but we don't know that. It's called speculation and a bit of fun. I don't think he would have stopped, you do. There's no evidence to support either way.

Yes, but you're missing the point. As I stated earlier, in 40k and fantasy, they're always waiting for the assault. There's never any push to go out and claim planets, territory, whatever.

In AoS the Stormcast and more recently the Sylvaneth are not only reclaiming lost territory they're going to chaos held territory that has not been held by anyone else and trying to claim it for themselves. That's the key difference, they are being the invaders.

I really disliked the Stormcast when AoS first came out. I played with my old empire as Freeguild for a few months before dropping out of AoS entirely, and I felt that the sigmarines really stole any thunder that normal humans in the setting had and that they were just faceless space marines with swords.

Just recently I've been looking back into AoS and I got the starter set on black friday for a ridiculously low price and honestly I feel like they're way more fleshed out now. I'm still not a huge fan of the liberators and other older models, but the new stuff and especially the helmetless models really tickle my fancy.

I feel like they went from characterless space marines to more humanized hollows from dark souls and i'm totally fine with that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Possibly, but we don't know that. It's called speculation and a bit of fun. I don't think he would have stopped, you do. There's no evidence to support either way.

Yes, but you're missing the point. As I stated earlier, in 40k and fantasy, they're always waiting for the assault. There's never any push to go out and claim planets, territory, whatever.

In AoS the Stormcast and more recently the Sylvaneth are not only reclaiming lost territory they're going to chaos held territory that has not been held by anyone else and trying to claim it for themselves. That's the key difference, they are being the invaders.

Yes we do. We know for a fact the Emperors long term plan was to replace Warp Drives with the Eldar Webway. We know for a fact that the Webway and Astronomicon don't allow for travel outside our Galaxy. There's nothing supporting your idea that the Emperor would have gone further.

I'm not. 40k has constant pushes to retake territory and they in no way just wait to be invaded. The only way to think that is if you just ignore lots of the lore. The same applies for Fantasy. There are examples of factions going to recover things and retake things all over the place.

So we come to the key difference being Stormcast supposedly taking territory which has always been Chaos territory. Which you haven't given any source for and was near literally impossible in Fantasy and does happen in 40k. In the end Stormcast aren't that different.

pm713 wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Possibly, but we don't know that. It's called speculation and a bit of fun. I don't think he would have stopped, you do. There's no evidence to support either way.

Yes, but you're missing the point. As I stated earlier, in 40k and fantasy, they're always waiting for the assault. There's never any push to go out and claim planets, territory, whatever.

In AoS the Stormcast and more recently the Sylvaneth are not only reclaiming lost territory they're going to chaos held territory that has not been held by anyone else and trying to claim it for themselves. That's the key difference, they are being the invaders.

Yes we do. We know for a fact the Emperors long term plan was to replace Warp Drives with the Eldar Webway. We know for a fact that the Webway and Astronomicon don't allow for travel outside our Galaxy. There's nothing supporting your idea that the Emperor would have gone further.

I'm not. 40k has constant pushes to retake territory and they in no way just wait to be invaded. The only way to think that is if you just ignore lots of the lore. The same applies for Fantasy. There are examples of factions going to recover things and retake things all over the place.

So we come to the key difference being Stormcast supposedly taking territory which has always been Chaos territory. Which you haven't given any source for and was near literally impossible in Fantasy and does happen in 40k. In the end Stormcast aren't that different.

So guys... how about you two bring this already to the relm of PMs? I'm sure there's a great debate to be had there but ultimately you two are going on a big ass tangent about your interpretations of the lore.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Again no. As they're taken as adults, usually after spending most of their mortal lives fighting against chaos. And unless the fluff has changed (which it could well have done) 15 was still too old for space marines, as I believe it usually had to be around the 11-12 age.

In the Heresy they made older people into Space Marine. Like most of the companions of Leman Russ (and many other Primarchs) except really old men like Kor Phaeron. And I am pretty sure that the companions of Russ weren't all preteen or early teen boys. That would put a rather disturbing spin on the character.

The fluff of the Space Marine transformation actually isn't well established in 40k background at all. I don't think it has been detailed at all since Rogue Trader. Recruiting preteens is also inconsistent with the constant mentions that Space Marines recruit only the strongest warriors of their societies. Preteens make horrible warriors...

But on topic, while Space Marines and Stormcast may have differences in the details, their main themes, aesthetics and story elements are incredibly similar. As some have mentioned, you could basically take an AoS novel, change some of the names and get a Space Marine novel. Personally I really like Space Marines, and I have also come to like Stormcast, but I do hope GW will do more in the future to differentiate them from Space Marines.

pm713 wrote:
You realise the Galaxy is finite?

I know a few people who would like to have a word about that with you.

Baron Klatz wrote:

There's space marines with farmer backgrounds who could explain a mill stone?

I don't have a farmer background and I could explain a mill stone. Mill stones aren't exactly complicated pieces of technology you see...

Now I kinda want an agricultural-themed Space Marine force. I think I will name them 'The Emperor's Hoes' and they will crusade righteously to improve agricultural productivity and weed out undesirable elements. Their battle cry will be 'It's almost harvesting season!' and they will ride in agriculture themed vehicles.

Considering how much space marines sell... I think many of us can agree that stormcast being the high fantasy version of space marines is intentional and I also think that is as designed and deviating from that is not something I'd forsee in the future.

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

I know a few people who would like to have a word about that with you.

Have I made a scientific mistake there?

pm713 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

I know a few people who would like to have a word about that with you.

Have I made a scientific mistake there?

No, we don't know whether the universe is finite or not. But it is a hotly debated issue, and a lot if not most astronomers and recent theories assume that the universe is infinite or that if it is finite it is expanding faster than that we could ever hope to reach the end of it.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I think I will name them 'The Emperor's Hoes' .

That's sounds more like Sororita force name back during their days as soldiers of Vandire.

I don't have a farmer background and I could explain a mill stone. Mill stones aren't exactly complicated pieces of technology you see

No but you'd still need a good understanding of them to make heads or tails of one used in Nurgle's disease ridden realm where the crops aren't exactly something you'd see on a basic farm...


Edit: @Auticus,

Oh certainly, they're doubtlessly marine inspired for that reason of good sells just as holy paladins of any setting are a solid choice for fan popularity. Not sure what you mean by "deviate", though.

Gotta say though despite not being physically human I find stormcast to be way more humanized than space marines are.

I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

 CoreCommander wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

Nothing makes your army feel whole like being an unholy mess of different factions, right?

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

Nothing makes your army feel whole like being an unholy mess of different factions, right?

I have absolutely no problem with it. It feels to me like different corps in an army.

Yeah, even better if they fully flesh out those 4 sub-factions. The variety would be crazy.

Also I wouldn't say they're glorified watchmen anymore than they were for the Empire.

In fact they're more imperial as they actually are expanding and taking over new lands like what they're doing to the fire realm (still waiting for pics of those mobile fortresses expanding their claims), rebuilding old claims as the Lantic Empire is doing as they're on their 13th attempt(darn beastclaws) and will fight with their allies to hold new land they took as the Ironweld did with the Sylvaneth when they annexed their territory for a new city.

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

Nothing makes your army feel whole like being an unholy mess of different factions, right?

Exactly, when your army is part of 3-5 different other fractions, you're running an Order army, not an 'Free People' one. And the Empire Great Canon had diffrent stats than the Dwarfven one, with the kit also included the mortar, which is lost as well IIRC.

No more special characters or specials units, no more Grand Master (no more need of that since there's no more proper cavalry), nor Captains as well.

We may be one of the few fractions having only a single leader type, the General, doing everything rather than having some secondary leader types to do the flag carrying and this or another.

When they came out I despised them tremendously. But a lot of that has to do with AoS not being Warhammer Fantasy Battles. I loved bricks of soldiers and monsters moving and marching in formations, and grand schemes directed by their generals.

That said my stance on Stormcast has softened. For one they make superb bitz sources for Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines and even my Sisters of Battle have Stormcast parts in their conversions.

Lore wise, I'll admit, I got ticked, sold my Skaven and High Elves and haven't really looked back so I don't know how they compare to the space marines. 'BUT' you know...if they fought in regiments on square bases I'd probably be okay with them.

 CoreCommander wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

Nothing makes your army feel whole like being an unholy mess of different factions, right?

I have absolutely no problem with it. It feels to me like different corps in an army.

Feels to me like a load of randoms ran into each other in a field. It's not an army it's more like a mob.

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

Nothing makes your army feel whole like being an unholy mess of different factions, right?

I have absolutely no problem with it. It feels to me like different corps in an army.

Feels to me like a load of randoms ran into each other in a field. It's not an army it's more like a mob.

AoS plays pretty much like mobs in a moshpit, so it works.

 thekingofkings wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 CoreCommander wrote:

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
I play Empire, I lost half my units, and the other half are just written as glorious Watchmen in reconquered cities. At least you got a whole book for you, I get 2 pages

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't only the knights and cannon (which doubles with the dwarf cannon) kits that have been decommissioned? Aren't all other units available as allies and separate order factions?

Nothing makes your army feel whole like being an unholy mess of different factions, right?

I have absolutely no problem with it. It feels to me like different corps in an army.

Feels to me like a load of randoms ran into each other in a field. It's not an army it's more like a mob.

AoS plays pretty much like mobs in a moshpit, so it works.

It really doesn't work. At all.

Seems fine to me.

Freeguild general on his noble warhorse leads his companies of spears, crossbows and halberdiers into battle. Has outriders and pistoliers skirmish with the enemy while rocket batteries blast them and then either anvils with greatswords or leads his demigryph knights into a glorious charge to break their lines.

If the enemy is too eldritch to handle he can request the aid of the pious devoted to fortify his army with faith.

If too powerful then he sends word to the collegiate for battle wizards to even the odds.

If too entrenched then the Ironweld siege companies can obliterate their fortress.

Just needs some battletomes to bring it all together but it's pretty cool as is for now.

.if they fought in regiments on square bases I'd probably be okay with them.

You should browse the EEFL forum then since they make rules for Stormcasts to be used in 8th.

Or you could make them all Empire and make sense.

Makes sense for free"guilds" to treat it like guilds and specialized companies too.

Heh, there's a route for them to take. Make them the DoW of the realms.

It kind of doesn't. They're meant to be armies not a random mix of different companies working together. But we're stuck with what Sigmar gave us...

It's pretty similar to how the Empire operated.

Main army of soldiers that could be backed up by the knight orders, the colleges of magic, the gunnery school of Nuln or the church of Sigmar/Ulric.

Freeguild is a main body backed up by Stormcast chambers, the collegiate, the Ironweld or the Devoted of Sigmar.

They'll likely combine them in a battletome and add some more flavors (Freeguilders from different realms and Devoted of other gods).

It's not. The Empire was a single nation and everyone was under a single military. Not five different armies that work together which is really dumb.

Things like Ironweld shouldn't really exist as a faction. It makes no sense to have an army just for war machines. The sane thing was to not split all the armies up but that ship sailed.

pm713 wrote:
Not five different armies that work together which is really dumb..

Interservice rivalry or lack of coordination is a thing. The air-force is its own thing, so can be artillery regiments from infantry ones.