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 daedalus wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
You can issue "Take Aim" to multiple units of Cadian Mortars. There's a difference between "unit X gets only one buff Y" versus "buff Y can only be issued once."

Yes, to two units per commander, limited by hq. And people with space marine captains are issuing "Take Aim" to every space marine unit within range simply by existing. The takeaway is that it seems that not all buffs are created equal, and they need to be considered and limited as appropriate to their capabilities.

Unless you're arguing that two units per 30 points rerolling 1s to hit is somehow on par with a free armywide rule that lets you have any unit act entirely all over again in whatever way is most convenient even if the action is out of phase.

Cadians already reroll 1s to hit just for being Cadians. Take Aim lets them reroll *all* hits. Aka "Guide, if Standing Still." Note that Guide is an ability you pay for, have to cast, risk mortal wounds for, and can be Denied, yet it is still "one *attempt* per turn."

Cadians also have the Relic of Lost Cadia, which can be popped for a 12" aura of rerolling 1s to hit and wound (or rerolling everything versus Chaos.). RAI, it's one-use but RAW it isn't. And honestly, one round is all that's needed when you have a 12" radius of "I am Gulliman."

Incidentally, the fact that the developers wrote 8th 40k with the same phase structure instead of going for an ATB structure, despite 7th introducing numerous "out of phase" actions, is just sloppy game design on their part.

pismakron wrote:
What is the source for this?

I wanna know this too, I don't see an FAQ or anything on the community site.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

pismakron wrote:
What is the source for this?

I wanna know this too, I don't see an FAQ or anything on the community site.

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_index_xenos_1_en-1.pdf

Specifically: "Page 76 – Strength from Death
Add the following paragraph:
‘Matched Play: If you are playing a matched play game, a unit
from your army cannot make a Soulburst action if a friendly
unit has already made the same Soulburst action during your
turn. In addition, units from your army cannot perform any
Soulburst actions during your opponent’s turn.’"

Ah, there it is, thank you. Weird that there wasn't an announcement for this on the community site.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
You can issue "Take Aim" to multiple units of Cadian Mortars. There's a difference between "unit X gets only one buff Y" versus "buff Y can only be issued once."

Yes, to two units per commander, limited by hq. And people with space marine captains are issuing "Take Aim" to every space marine unit within range simply by existing. The takeaway is that it seems that not all buffs are created equal, and they need to be considered and limited as appropriate to their capabilities.

Unless you're arguing that two units per 30 points rerolling 1s to hit is somehow on par with a free armywide rule that lets you have any unit act entirely all over again in whatever way is most convenient even if the action is out of phase.

Cadians already reroll 1s to hit just for being Cadians. Take Aim lets them reroll *all* hits. Aka "Guide, if Standing Still." Note that Guide is an ability you pay for, have to cast, risk mortal wounds for, and can be Denied, yet it is still "one *attempt* per turn."

The Cadian trait requires the unit to stay still.
Take Aim is an ability that you lose when an Officer is killed and it has a 6" range versus the range on Guide.

Cadians also have the Relic of Lost Cadia, which can be popped for a 12" aura of rerolling 1s to hit and wound (or rerolling everything versus Chaos.). RAI, it's one-use but RAW it isn't. And honestly, one round is all that's needed when you have a 12" radius of "I am Gulliman."

Oh please. Rerolling 1s to Hit when you're a Cadian unit to begin with is at best "Meh" since it doesn't just grant you rerolls of everything that "Take Aim" does. There's also an Order that can be issued that grants rerolls on 1s to Wound...but if you do that without Laurels of Command, you might not get Take Aim or FRFSRF.

It's also worth noting that the only time it really comes in handy is when you're doing like that schmuck at the Atlanta tournament did and shoving it in with a bunch of Manticores or other tanks, since he would hide the (notably illegal since Primaris Psykers can't take RoLC as they don't have <Regiment&gt Relic bearer back with the Manticores./tanks.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
Ah, there it is, thank you. Weird that there wasn't an announcement for this on the community site.

You're welcome - their community site is kind of crappy for new announcements. I swear, I've seen discussion threads on reddit before the link even shows up on the community site.

So aside from a Partol detachment with Yvraine, 10 Reapers and a "who cares" Troop unit, I don't think we'll be seeing Ynnari at any Tournament, or probably in any casual play.

Not being able to activate Soulburst in the opponent's turn pretty much means it's only optimal use is in 2 situations:
A) 1 Shooting unit through the use of a psychic power (Word of the Phoenix) or
B) 1 Melee unit that charged

I could see maybe using if with a close range shooting unit like WG or Fire Dragons, but only on the turn they disembark from a Serpent.

All other situations can be completely controlled by the opponent.
Considering that you must have a Ynnari Warlord just to access the 1 Soulburst you get per turn, I think I'd rather just use those points on a second unit of whatever I want to "shoot twice"

-

Yeah, but it gets dumb fast if you can act on your opponent's turn.

A unit arrives from deep strike. You pay 2cp to shoot it with your dark reapers. You kill that unit. You soulburst! You kill another unit with the same reapers. Other things soulburst! Want to take all kinds of actions in your opponent's movement phase? Go for it! #counterplay

I mean, I thought Ynnari we're fine but I don't think this hurts them so bad as to make them NOT fine.

 Marmatag wrote:
A unit arrives from deep strike. You pay 2cp to shoot it with your dark reapers. You kill that unit. You soulburst! You kill another unit with the same reapers. Other things soulburst! Want to take all kinds of actions in your opponent's movement phase? Go for it! #counterplay

None of that is possible for players who READ THE RULES. It's impossible to Soulburst off a unit that died outside of 7". Since every single "deep strike" unit has to come in outside out 9", it isn't possible to Soulburst off of that unit's death. And how else are YOUR units dying in YOUR turn while within 7" of a Ynnari unit (aside from melee)?

And paying the CP for the "intercept" has nothing to do with Ynnari. So if the solution to a CWE unit being overpowered by using a CWE Stratagem is nerfing the heck out of Ynnari, then I must be out of touch with the rules. #sarcasm.

Well, i was wrong about the 7", so that's a good catch. I'm just trying to envision a scenario where the new rules make the Ynaari too strong, but out of phase. Since the big change is really that it can't proc on the opponents turn. I'm wondering what the motivation was for that.

I do agree with GW that you shouldn't be able to chain soulbursts and annihilate your opponent in 1 turn, that was far too strong.

Personally, I would have been fine if you couldn't repeat that same Soulburst action per player turn. That would have been the perfect balance as currently having SfD just means multiple units getting to shoot twice, because other actions are not nearly as powerful.
But disallowing any Soulburst action in the opponent's turn pretty much ensures Soulburst only goes off once per turn regardless of the type of action because you'll need either Yvraine or Yncarne casts Word of the Phoenix on a unit.

 Galef wrote:
Personally, I would have been fine if you couldn't repeat that same Soulburst action per player turn. That would have been the perfect balance as currently having SfD just means multiple units getting to shoot twice, because other actions are not nearly as powerful.
But disallowing any Soulburst action in the opponent's turn pretty much ensures Soulburst only goes off once per turn regardless of the type of action because you'll need either Yvraine or Yncarne casts Word of the Phoenix on a unit.

Yeah, allowing it on the opponents turn would be okay with me, with it being restricted.

It is rather silly though to find yourself in a situation where you can't kill a unit with 1 wound left, because you'll get annihilated by the Wraithguards behind it.

Eldar overall got markedly stronger in the codex. I think this will all balance out.

Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.

momerathe wrote:
Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.

And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

momerathe wrote:
Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.

And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.

Well... it's really 2, because Celestine gives you a free one, and any list featuring acts of faith will have Celestine.

 Galas wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ynnari needed a nerf to stop being the eldar autopick, but this is too much.

So they have still the best faction-hability in the game, and this is too much?

Is it though?
Getting Ynnari makes you lose ancient doom, battle focus, power from pain and rising crecendo, on top of losing any ability to get from craftworld, masque, coven, kabal or wytch cult (DE have 3 sets of "factions". this is so wierd. I wonder if they all get actual rules eventually)
Plus, you give up on stratagems, relics and warlord traits (you can cheese most stratagems with a craftworld detachment, but that's not pure ynnari no more)

So the SfD need to equal and top ALL of the possible combinations to be the "best"
Now, putting aside the benefits that vehicles gain and StD doesn't even effect them, lets look just on infantry and bikers.

You need SfD to beat constant -1 to hit at 12" from any of your models coupled with the ability to move and advance with no ill effect to assault/rapid weapons. plus relic choice. plus warlord choice beyond the 3 ynnari chars, plus warlord traits.

So, what does SfD even does now?
You got 5 abilities you can trigger once per turn
A unit can move again
A unit can shoot again
A unit may cast another power (this does NOT override the power limit, so basically cast another smite)
A unit can charge (though it doesn't let them attack)
A unit can fight again

To trigger ANY of these, you have to first get the unit you want it to trigger on within 7" of an enemy unit, and then wipe that unit completely.
Alternately, you got one psyker power that triggers on of these abilities, IF you manage the cast, and then it still takes up the usage.

So, going one by one.
Move again. you need to get close, in order to unlock getting closer if you killed the enemy. hardly breathtaking.
Shoot again. just how many shooty units that are worth triggering this on can and want to get within 7" of the enemy?
Casting another power. getting another smite is nice, but again requires a psyker within 7" of the enemy, and actually wiping something out. other than Yacrane, there is little that fits the bill.
Charging. you wiped out a unit within 7" to get to charge your dudes. if you had a unit worth unit this on within 7" of the enemy you juts wiped, they could probably already charge anyway. this is only useful for charging after a won melee at another target, good luck with that. (and you don't get to fight this turn, the fight phase has ended)
Fight again, you need to be in combat while wiping out another unit within 7", not going to trigger all that often unless you somehow found yourself in a mosh pit scenario. who on earth will allow a mosh pit to happen against ynnari is beyond me as the "basic" tactic against them to begin with is to spread out and try to isolate units.


Given the relative difficulty to trigger them, the fact you can't cascade them, that you can only use each once and that ieven if you went through the hoops, the unit that can get them is probably no where it wants to be anyway-SfD just no longer compares with blanket -1 to hi at 12", or with FnP6 to make you die less, or big stuff not degrading until they are practically dead, etc.
The craftworld abilities are not as massive, but they work for every unit on the table, all the time. and you take the craftworld that fits your army, not just any random one.

The hit is just too big now. and it creates the akward counter-synrgy that having more ynnari on the table makes each ynnari activly worse (and there are less soulbursts per unit around), just like it used to be for old SoB when they had a limited number of "miracles", making each unit activly drain others, or how psykers work now that each high-level psyker you got around makes others worse because they compete over casting the same powers.

Comparing soulburst to acts of faith or Guard orders is pretty meaningsless. Soulburst should be compared with Power From Pain, Rising Crescendo and CWE bonuses. Once you have some kind of internal balance, then you can balance the entire soup against the other soups.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Ynnari needed a nerf to stop being the eldar autopick, but this is too much.

So they have still the best faction-hability in the game, and this is too much?

Is it though?
Getting Ynnari makes you lose ancient doom, battle focus, power from pain and rising crecendo, on top of losing any ability to get from craftworld, masque, coven, kabal or wytch cult (DE have 3 sets of "factions". this is so wierd. I wonder if they all get actual rules eventually)
Plus, you give up on stratagems, relics and warlord traits (you can cheese most stratagems with a craftworld detachment, but that's not pure ynnari no more)

So the SfD need to equal and top ALL of the possible combinations to be the "best"
Now, putting aside the benefits that vehicles gain and StD doesn't even effect them, lets look just on infantry and bikers.

You need SfD to beat constant -1 to hit at 12" from any of your models coupled with the ability to move and advance with no ill effect to assault/rapid weapons. plus relic choice. plus warlord choice beyond the 3 ynnari chars, plus warlord traits.

So, what does SfD even does now?
You got 5 abilities you can trigger once per turn
A unit can move again
A unit can shoot again
A unit may cast another power (this does NOT override the power limit, so basically cast another smite)
A unit can charge (though it doesn't let them attack)
A unit can fight again

To trigger ANY of these, you have to first get the unit you want it to trigger on within 7" of an enemy unit, and then wipe that unit completely.
Alternately, you got one psyker power that triggers on of these abilities, IF you manage the cast, and then it still takes up the usage.

So, going one by one.
Move again. you need to get close, in order to unlock getting closer if you killed the enemy. hardly breathtaking.
Shoot again. just how many shooty units that are worth triggering this on can and want to get within 7" of the enemy?
Casting another power. getting another smite is nice, but again requires a psyker within 7" of the enemy, and actually wiping something out. other than Yacrane, there is little that fits the bill.
Charging. you wiped out a unit within 7" to get to charge your dudes. if you had a unit worth unit this on within 7" of the enemy you juts wiped, they could probably already charge anyway. this is only useful for charging after a won melee at another target, good luck with that. (and you don't get to fight this turn, the fight phase has ended)
Fight again, you need to be in combat while wiping out another unit within 7", not going to trigger all that often unless you somehow found yourself in a mosh pit scenario. who on earth will allow a mosh pit to happen against ynnari is beyond me as the "basic" tactic against them to begin with is to spread out and try to isolate units.


Given the relative difficulty to trigger them, the fact you can't cascade them, that you can only use each once and that ieven if you went through the hoops, the unit that can get them is probably no where it wants to be anyway-SfD just no longer compares with blanket -1 to hi at 12", or with FnP6 to make you die less, or big stuff not degrading until they are practically dead, etc.
The craftworld abilities are not as massive, but they work for every unit on the table, all the time. and you take the craftworld that fits your army, not just any random one.

The hit is just too big now. and it creates the akward counter-synrgy that having more ynnari on the table makes each ynnari activly worse (and there are less soulbursts per unit around), just like it used to be for old SoB when they had a limited number of "miracles", making each unit activly drain others, or how psykers work now that each high-level psyker you got around makes others worse because they compete over casting the same powers.

You don't give up stratagems, relics and warlord traits (As one Ynnari needs to be your warlord the warlord trait doesn't matter, but the Relics and Stratagems does). The "Ynnari" keyword is an addition that doesn't erase the <Craftworld> one.

 Galas wrote:

You don't give up stratagems, relics and warlord traits (As one Ynnari needs to be your warlord the warlord trait doesn't matter, but the Relics and Stratagems does). The "Ynnari" keyword is an addition that doesn't erase the <Craftworld> one.

Except you do.
As per older FAQs, if you want to play ynnari, you MUST have one of the three ynnari chars in that detachment (and one of them has to be your warlord), and at that point it does not qualify for the craftworld bonuses as its no longer a craftworld detachment.

You still have the craftworld keyword, but cant get any of the associated abilities without a separate non-ynnari detachment to get access. the warlord traits are lost forever, as you got a ynnari warlord though.

I can understand the Ynnari power not working on the opponent's turn, as GW have largely been steering away from stuff that you use in the enemy turn (outside of saves, obviously).

It's annoying perhaps, but I think it does help simplify things a bit (rather than the possibility of an opponent getting free move, psychic, shoot and/or charge phases mid-way through your turn).

Limiting it to one soulburst type per turn is a bit odd though.


I don't hate this change, but it really does feel like one of those 'papering over the cracks' fixes.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

momerathe wrote:
Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.

And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.

Well... it's really 2, because Celestine gives you a free one, and any list featuring acts of faith will have Celestine.

I think they meant taking celestine or the other one by paying points for one.

The good news is you don't have to spend any more time contemplating the best build using Altioc and Ynnari.

 kastelen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

momerathe wrote:
Rather than guard, I think a better comparison to soulburst is the Sororitas' Acts of Faith. In fact, if they'd just kept the "not in opponents turn" and left out the other part, Soulburst and AoF would be very similar in effect now, just with a different trigger.

And also AOF can only be done once per turn, unless you pay points... so actually, soulburst is how AOF is now.

Well... it's really 2, because Celestine gives you a free one, and any list featuring acts of faith will have Celestine.

I think they meant taking celestine or the other one by paying points for one.

Yes, Celestine and Imagifiers actually cost points, believe it or not.

The only good Ynarri detachment will be Yvraine + Dark reapers and then the cheapest troop (patrol) or fast attack (outrider). Anything else is garbage imo.

Pretty amazing they ruin an entire playstyle with a FAQ and then also re-release the triumvirate.

Soulburst--don't let the door hit you on the way out. Good riddance.

You know, it's amazing how it didn't even take one page before this thread turned in to endless whining about guard, when the thread itself is about Eldar.

Anyway, it looks like it's limited to one per unit per turn, not one per turn period, so not TOO heavy of a nerf at least?

Very disappointing. It's an over-nerf to a faction which I doubt GW plans to give real support to. It feels like they sold a box on power, with the promise of a new concept, and now they stripped away the power and offer nothing to the concept.

Yvraine now will just get proxied as a farseer and the yncarne will collect dust. I actually designed my whole personal craftworld to be ynarri as I dug the lore: blending dark eldar and eldar motifs.

I agree on it being best to have a balance between battlefocus/sfd/pfp but I'd have much rather they made battlefocus worth something (costed accordingly) and sfd toned down more reasonably so the trade was between those powers.

The fact that you have to weight sfd against having your own actual relics/strategems/traits is lame

 Kirasu wrote:
The only good Ynarri detachment will be Yvraine + Dark reapers and then the cheapest troop (patrol) or fast attack (outrider). Anything else is garbage imo.

Pretty amazing they ruin an entire playstyle with a FAQ and then also re-release the triumvirate.

Actually, it is pretty par for the course for GW, release or re-release a kit, sell as many as they can, then nerf it horribly in hopes that the customer will buy something else to replace the nerfed unit

Good soul burst was a crutch.

This harlequin player approves.