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Soul Burst is a bad mechanic as it is. I do like the idea of a hyper-aggressive pixie-style army that gets off of big, dangerous plays, but Soul Burst just did so much for so little. If GW wants to keep Ynnari as a thing, they need to be seriously looked at and redesigned from the ground up (ideally as their own faction, and not some coked-up soup).

 Fafnir wrote:
Soul Burst is a bad mechanic as it is. I do like the idea of a hyper-aggressive pixie-style army that gets off of big, dangerous plays, but Soul Burst just did so much for so little. If GW wants to keep Ynnari as a thing, they need to be seriously looked at and redesigned from the ground up (ideally as their own faction, and not some coked-up soup).

See, I'm the opposite. I like Ynnari being a soup army unlocked by certain characters. I also thought Soulburst going off on enemy turns created a fun and varied environment. When fighting Ynnari you had to think of the board completely differently and focus on weaking lots of units rather than outright destroying a couple of them. I even gave the faction a spin a few times (using spouse's Eldar units) and found them as much fun to play as to fight.

Different strokes for different folks.

Audustum wrote:

 Fafnir wrote:
Soul Burst is a bad mechanic as it is. I do like the idea of a hyper-aggressive pixie-style army that gets off of big, dangerous plays, but Soul Burst just did so much for so little. If GW wants to keep Ynnari as a thing, they need to be seriously looked at and redesigned from the ground up (ideally as their own faction, and not some coked-up soup).

See, I'm the opposite. I like Ynnari being a soup army unlocked by certain characters. I also thought Soulburst going off on enemy turns created a fun and varied environment. When fighting Ynnari you had to think of the board completely differently and focus on weaking lots of units rather than outright destroying a couple of them. I even gave the faction a spin a few times (using spouse's Eldar units) and found them as much fun to play as to fight.

Different strokes for different folks.

I don't like faction that DEPENDS on using special characters. Ynnari really don't fight any battles without one of three specific characters? Feels like saying you can't have Cadian army without Creed or Steel Legions without Yarrick.

Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.

If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.

It would be nice if Ynnari got some proper HQs (even if they're just repurposed Eldar/DE/Harlequin ones).

I really hate that you currently have to take a special character as your Warlord to use them at all.

 Galef wrote:
Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.

If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.

As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.

Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

Earth127 wrote:
Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

I am really puzzled by what GW's plan for them is. They made these gorgeous models and I thought they were gonna be a big deal, and now they're nerfed to oblivion.

I hope similiar to Death guard, a full new model line up that intergrates some elements of the Aeldari armies.

 Crimson wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

I am really puzzled by what GW's plan for them is. They made these gorgeous models and I thought they were gonna be a big deal, and now they're nerfed to oblivion.

The plan is that it likely won't have anything in the short term, hence the nerf to oblivion.

Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then. They're tying stuff to story.
For the Ynnari, we know that the Visarch is a Big Deal for the "fighter" side of things, Yvraine is a Big Deal for the "caster" side of things, and the Avatar of Ynnead is a Big Deal for the lore and things like that.

Earth127 wrote:
Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

I thought GW was on record saying that they (along with all of the minor factions, like GSC) would be getting a codex?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

I am really puzzled by what GW's plan for them is. They made these gorgeous models and I thought they were gonna be a big deal, and now they're nerfed to oblivion.

The plan is that it likely won't have anything in the short term, hence the nerf to oblivion.

Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then. They're tying stuff to story.
For the Ynnari, we know that the Visarch is a Big Deal for the "fighter" side of things, Yvraine is a Big Deal for the "caster" side of things, and the Avatar of Ynnead is a Big Deal for the lore and things like that.

Yvrain was a Succubus and an Aspect Warrior before that, she's a pretty big deal for fighters as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then.

I don't think that is really the same thing. Those models were originally done for SIlver Tower, not for AOS.

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then.

I don't think that is really the same thing. Those models were originally done for SIlver Tower, not for AOS.

Everything in Silver Tower was done for AoS.

Hell, if this doesn't tell you:



GW is big on branding right now. Notice how everything for Shadespire says "Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire" on it? Or how the bundle boxes of heroes for Silver Tower said "Warhammer Quest"?
When stuff is intended for one specific thing, it gets a specific title and product branding.

Not originally. Sure, they later repackaged them for AOS, but that's not why they were originally designed; although they probably are a good indication of new Aelf look when they finally get around making new kits.

But they Ynnari were a big deal strorywise for 40K, so it is odd that they're now sidelined.

So I've been evaluating the change for my list (in spoiler) and I still just don't see myself switching out of Ynnari for pure CW:E. Ultimately I don't really consider the WL Traits or Relics worth the lost opportunity to double shoot with a few key units - the stratagems are fantastic but I can access those via my two CWE detachments and still bring a Ynnari Battalion. I think it is now about evaluating what units benefit from <Craftworld> traits and which from the potential of SfD. Granted I'm not thrilled about the change but I don't agree that it kills the army or renders it useless - but I don't have a high opinion of the CWE relics and WL traits. I'd still rather be able to generate an extra shooting attack from a high value shooting unit or possibly getting 2 units to take extra moves in a turn. Its probably worth noting as well that I'm not amazed by any of the CWE troop selections - I feel like they require too much investment to make them worthwhile - I'd simply rather have cheap troops with access to a reasonably fast and cheap transport.

They do like branding, but those models incorporate a whole new design philosophy for Aelves. They likely will become a faction one day, a "dark elf" equivalent that lives on the plain of shadow most likely. If you have ever read their designer interviews in WD they have a deliberate way they make design elements in models for specific game lines, like how the eyes have been the same on all eldar since they were pretty much invented. These new models carry some new design trends that seem very deliberate on their part to make a new line but keeping the feel of old lines. I think a similar idea will come to pass for the Ynnari and they will get to have their own line of infantry and such, likely modeled in the way of ancient Eldar, much like how the Visarch's armor incorporates design elements from both DE and Craftworld but with a more "ancient empire" feel to it, and all with be festooned with soulstones. They will also likely share the same vehicles, but I can see them having an upgrade sprue to go with it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:
Not originally. Sure, they later repackaged them for AOS, but that's not why they were originally designed; although they probably are a good indication of new Aelf look when they finally get around making new kits.

But they Ynnari were a big deal strorywise for 40K, so it is odd that they're now sidelined.

They did say there would be campaign books and I have no doubt Ynnari will get their own. Yrvaine has had 100 years to gather followers and develop their own personal style (hence the need for a new infantry kit).

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

I thought GW was on record saying that they (along with all of the minor factions, like GSC) would be getting a codex?

As I recall it was all the major factions get a codex? They did not define what was and what was not a "major" faction - except of course any group of about a 1000 marines

 Crimson wrote:
Not originally. Sure, they later repackaged them for AOS, but that's not why they were originally designed; although they probably are a good indication of new Aelf look when they finally get around making new kits.

Okay.

I don't know if you're just willfully ignoring the point being made or not, but:
When those two were first introduced? They literally were called out as being "Shadowkin". They were stated to be our first look at an army that would be coming down the road.

None of this garbage about "originally designed for Silver Tower" or anything. That never once got stated. And unless you can show me something from Silver Tower that hasn't either been coopted from Age of Sigmar or later made an appearance in Age of Sigmar, your point is at best nonsensically splitting hairs.

But they Ynnari were a big deal strorywise for 40K, so it is odd that they're now sidelined.

And the disappearance of Slaanesh from the Sigmarverse isn't a "Big Deal" story-wise? The only thing we ever had going with that plotline is that Slaanesh's followers are looking for it and they've been going to the Realm of Shadows to do so.

 vipoid wrote:
It would be nice if Ynnari got some proper HQs (even if they're just repurposed Eldar/DE/Harlequin ones).

I really hate that you currently have to take a special character as your Warlord to use them at all.

This is accurate. I would like to see them get their own HQs, too, so you can play them without bringing a named character.

There are lots of narrative campaigns where Ynaari simply cannot be played, because named characters are heavily restricted.

 Mr Morden wrote:

HuskyWarhammer wrote:

Earth127 wrote:
Nothing except the existence of 3 character point to them getting a codex at all.

I thought GW was on record saying that they (along with all of the minor factions, like GSC) would be getting a codex?

As I recall it was all the major factions get a codex? They did not define what was and what was not a "major" faction - except of course any group of about a 1000 marines

The statement was that anything that had a codex would get a codex and some things that got introduced as part of the Gathering Storm would get a codex as well.

Skitarii are the only ones which haven't gotten a codex that had a codex before, but the whining about them being separate from Cult Mechanicus probably just precluded that from being left alone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Look at Shadowkin for AoS. We've had the Tenebrael Shard and Mistweaver Saih since Silver Tower released. Nothing more has come out since then.

I don't think that is really the same thing. Those models were originally done for SIlver Tower, not for AOS.

Everything in Silver Tower was done for AoS.

Hell, if this doesn't tell you:



GW is big on branding right now. Notice how everything for Shadespire says "Warhammer Underworlds: Shadespire" on it? Or how the bundle boxes of heroes for Silver Tower said "Warhammer Quest"?
When stuff is intended for one specific thing, it gets a specific title and product branding.

They do like branding, but those models incorporate a whole new design philosophy for Aelves. They likely will become a faction one day, a "dark elf" equivalent that lives on the plain of shadow most likely. If you have ever read their designer interviews in WD they have a deliberate way they make design elements in models for specific game lines, like how the eyes have been the same on all eldar since they were pretty much invented. These new models carry some new design trends that seem very deliberate on their part to make a new line but keeping the feel of old lines. I think a similar idea will come to pass for the Ynnari and they will get to have their own line of infantry and such, likely modeled in the way of ancient Eldar, much like how the Visarch's armor incorporates design elements from both DE and Craftworld but with a more "ancient empire" feel to it, and all with be festooned with soulstones. They will also likely share the same vehicles, but I can see them having an upgrade sprue to go with it.

We KNOW they are part of a faction. They're called the Shadowkin. They dwell in the Realm of Shadows, have ties to the Fyreslayers in said Realm of Shadows, and are led by Malerion and his "Shadow Princes".

Beyond that, we have not gotten anything. They've said Shadowkin will "have their time" but it wasn't time yet. We know that the next Realmwars section will deal with Slaanesh being missing, Nagash coming back, and a few other Big Deals.

I remember as all factions that curently have a codex. (end of 7th)

Earth127 wrote:
I remember as all factions that curently have a codex. (end of 7th)

Yes, and there was further clarification that there "would be new things to come as well".

Everyone immediately started with the garbage about "PRIMARIS CODEX! THEY WANT TO SCREW US OVER!". So far the only armies to get screwed over that way have been people who played pure Skitarii or people who played pure Tempestus(although Tempestus can still be done, Skitarii can't).

Harlequin were the other army that was built similar to Skitarii(No HQs in their Detachment) but were given an HQ to make them "fit" the new detachments.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.

If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.

As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.

Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.

But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.

-

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.

If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.

As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.

Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.

But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.
-

Who says there needs to be a specific amount of content to merit getting a book?

That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.

Skitarii never should have been their own faction in the first place, they were always inherently and organically a part of the Mechanicus. Splitting the two was silly in 7th, just like splitting Stormtroopers off into their own book was.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Who says there needs to be a specific amount of content to merit getting a book?

Most people, probably. It is just dumb to publish a whole codex for thee characters.

That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.

Let it go, you're probably the only person in the world who thinks that it was a bad call.

 Kanluwen wrote:

That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.

Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.

Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.

-

 Crimson wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Who says there needs to be a specific amount of content to merit getting a book?

Most people, probably. It is just dumb to publish a whole codex for thee characters.

That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.

Let it go, you're probably the only person in the world who thinks that it was a bad call.

There is zero reason to release codicies for armies with only 3 units, it's pointless and a waste of time and money. GW would still have the same publishing costs, so the book would still be sold for £30 or whatever, and then everyone would complain that they're paying so much money for 3 pages of rules.

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.

Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.

Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.

-

Chapter Approved is coming out annually again and was a good spot to stick some of the more marginal army lists in the past. I'd be perfectly fine is that's where Custodes, Sisters of Silence, Kroot Mercenaries, Ynnari, Feral Orks and the like get updated in the future rather than separate Codexes.