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 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

That kind of dumb thinking is why we have Skitarii getting gutted and rolled into the stupid Cult Mechanicus book.

Um, Skitarii should never have gotten their own codex in the first place. It's all Admech.
Harlequins should never have received their own codex in 7th either. Prior to that codex, Harlies were a 1 unit entry in both the Eldar and DE codices.

And prior to those codices, Harlequin had their own army list.

Players shouldn't have to pay $40-$50 for the rules for less than a dozen units. THAT is the standard in which an "army" should merit it's own book.
Skitarii and Harlies are not whole armies in their own right, but fringe factions of larger forces. Ynnari are even less so. It anything, the rules for Ynnari would only be about a dozen pages long. Smaller than a White Dwarf. Yet GW will fill it will unneeded full and charge at least $30 for it. THAT is what should be discouraged.
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That's your opinion.

The standard for an army to merit its own book is that it would need its own book. Skitarii, for example, had a modest but respectable number of units(7) but the key difference between them and the Cult Mechanicus(which had 6 units at its launch. Don't believe me? Dominus, Kastelan, Destroyers, Breachers, Corpuscarii, Fulgurite. It wasn't until "Agents of the Imperium" that the Techpriest Enginseer and his Servitors were added into the mix, Gathering Storm for Cawl, and then 8th edition for the Datasmith to be added as his own unit entry) came down to their gameplay mechanics.

Cult Mechanicus required multiple units and scaled better at higher points, Skitarii remained static but had cheaper units. CM players whined they needed the cheap units to be successful and now Skitarii got screwed over because of people not learning how to play their army or figuring things out for themselves.

Speaking for myself? If you continue to try to pretend that my army wasn't valid because it didn't meet some imaginary criteria that you came up with in your head, then I hope your army gets the same treatment.

A lackluster book that requires you to purchase things in order to field what you had before.

I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.

GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.

EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.

-

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.

And just for clarity's sake?
At launch for each book, the following were the unit counts:
Skitarii--Rangers, Vanguard, Infiltrators, Ruststalkers, Dragoons, Ballistari, and Dunecrawlers. 7 units at launch.
Cult Mechanicus--Kastelan Robots(Remember: Datasmiths came as part of this unit, they were not a separate unit), Kataphron Destroyers, Kataphron Breachers, Dominus, Corpuscarii, Fulgurite. 6 units at launch.

Then we got Codex: Imperial Agents which added the Techpriest Enginseer and his Servitors to the mix, bringing Cult up to 8 units and lastly Gathering Storm bringing Cawl into it for 9.
Knights were not a part of either Codex and neither book had shared rules. It required formations/detachments for that to happen(one from White Dwarf, one from a web order bundle, and the last from the Gathering Storm book I).

I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.

CULT Mechanicus had wildly different rules compared to the Skitarii did, and Skitarii lost their special rules to get shoved in with Cult units.

It's like saying Dark Eldar and Eldar could be 2 fully different armies yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords...but we know that's not true, don't we?
The mechanics of Dark Eldar and Eldar are different enough to justify them being split into different books. From their basic weapons to their special rules, it just wouldn't be the same thing now would it?

GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.
EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.
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And this is where you're wrong.

None of the books that got released that were the "small books" required separate books to use things. Someone buying Codex: Skitarii didn't have to pay a single damn cent to field a model from the Skitarii range. The Start Collecting set was a notable exception, but even then...it included the basic rules/stats for the Dominus and a Skitarii player didn't have to use it unless they wanted to.

That's a fallacious argument, unless you're trying to insinuate that the smaller books couldn't be effective on their own--in which case it varied wildly based upon the play group you were in. I did fairly well with a strictly Skitarii force and never felt like I was at a disadvantage by not having Cult Mechanicus.

And this is where, I think, you really need to sit down and listen.
GW did not do a situation where the Skitarii are able to be "represented" sharing the book with another, equally small army. This isn't like Space Marines where you can field a purely Primaris or purely non-Primaris force. The thing that made Skitarii unique in the form of their Doctrina Imperatives was stripped from them to make them a (no pun intended) cog in an otherwise bland mechanism that is the AdMech book. It's still there in the form of a stratagem, but that's a garbage tradeoff and we all should recognize it as such. All it would have taken to flesh out Skitarii into a "real" army by your criteria to match this new edition was a pair of stupid HQ options.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.

Through the absolute loosest interpretation of that statement, you could say that about literally any army.

 daedalus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.

Through the absolute loosest interpretation of that statement, you could say that about literally any army.

Which again goes to why I think it idiotic to even remotely insinuate that some kind of criteria needs to be present to justify a codex or not.

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.

GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.

EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.

-

Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.

Ynnarri should get a total revamp and product support (aka troops and vehicle upgrade sprue at least) or simply be a support faction like Custodes or Inquisition, no in betweens

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.

GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.

EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.

-

Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.

BZZZT. Wrong.

The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?

Your idea of an AdMech army is not the same as mine, I might add. Having stupid Priests around != AdMech army. An AdMech army is all manner of esoteric wargear and an implacable advance that puts the enemy in their place with ruthless precision and no emotion.

Ynnarri should get a total revamp and product support (aka troops and vehicle upgrade sprue at least) or simply be a support faction like Custodes or Inquisition, no in betweens

And why should Ynnari get that? Lump them into the Dark Eldar book, who in turn get lumped in with the Harlequin.

After all there's only a "few rules" that differentiate them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.

GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.

EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.

-

Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.

BZZZT. Wrong.

The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?

Ah...literally hundreds of points worth of things like assault 3 plasma guns that never got hot and other wargear? That was monstrously powerful in and of itself

 Kanluwen wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

I just get frustrated when GW releases a set of rules for 3-5 units, bulk up the book with nonsense and charge the same cost as a fully flushed out army's book that has 3-4x the rules content.
All codices should have the same value, and I just do not see Codex: Harlequins or Codex: Ynnari as stand alones being anyway near as good a value as Codex: Craftworlds.
You can easily have a Codex that contains more than 1 related faction.
Ad Mech and Skitarri could be 2 fully different armies, yet share the same book because they are related but simply use different keywords. Codex: Marines does this with Chapter Tactics.

GW is a company that makes models, yet they continue to release tons of separate books required to use those models and thus inflate the overall cost of this game.

EDIT: and BTW, at no point did I say that Skitarii or any other army were not valid. Simply that the amount of rules needed to represent them is small enough to share a book with another, equally small army.

-

Even though we are thoroughly off topic im going to agree, as a long time skitarii/cult player that they should have always been part of the same army, the difference between skitarii and their cult counterparts is about as much as the difference between Scions and Guard. Together they are far more useful, fluffy, and powerful then they ever were apart. Thats why the Convocation was such a hit (outside of its bonkers rules) it allowed you to play an ADMECH army.

BZZZT. Wrong.

The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?

Your idea of an AdMech army is not the same as mine, I might add. Having stupid Priests around != AdMech army. An AdMech army is all manner of esoteric wargear and an implacable advance that puts the enemy in their place with ruthless precision and no emotion.

Ynnarri should get a total revamp and product support (aka troops and vehicle upgrade sprue at least) or simply be a support faction like Custodes or Inquisition, no in betweens

And why should Ynnari get that? Lump them into the Dark Eldar book, who in turn get lumped in with the Harlequin.

After all there's only a "few rules" that differentiate them.

I apologize great Tech Priest, I spoke with opinion and that was harmful to Omnissiah, how dare I buy and play an army from day one and have pre conceived notions about how it was presented!

Ad Mech is led by Tech-Priests. It makes perfect sense to have some Tech-Priests in an Ad Mech army, even if it was primarily a Skitarii force. At minimun they need some priests to maintain their Dunecrawlers. The separation for two (three if you count the Knights) books was done for one reason alone: to sell people several books.

But I truly hope that 'Fires of Cyraxus' (when it will finally be released sometime in early 22nd century) will add a Skitarii HQ, if only to get Kan to shut up about it.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
BZZZT. Wrong.
The reason Convocation was such a hit was because of the bonkers rules. It allowed for Skitarii models, which were far cheaper than equivalent Cult units, to be counted as part for the Canticles.
Take away that and it was a farce. Oh wow, free wargear on...well, a Knight? Some Skitarii?

Ah...literally hundreds of points worth of things like assault 3 plasma guns that never got hot and other wargear? That was monstrously powerful in and of itself

The problem is that, as I argued multiple times during 7th, the requirements of the War Convocation.
You had 2 Skitarii units(1 Ranger and 1 Vanguard), 2 units of Sicarian(1 Infiltrator and 1 Ruststalker) 1 unit of Ironstriders or Dragoons, and 1 unit of Onagers.
You did not get any more models free in those units and you could not add anything more to those selections.
You took a specific Formation from the Skitarii book, a specific Detachment from the Cult Mechanicus book, and a specific type of Knight(one that couldn't take any Relics).

So you could have at max:
6x Plasma Calivers, at 30 points each(double the points cost of a standard Plasma Gun) assuming you bought 5 more Vanguard and 5 more Rangers for the two squads. Otherwise you had 4x.
2x Enhanced Data-Tethers OR 2x Omnispex(this was a dummy choice as the EDT didn't stack with the Broad-Spectrum Data-Tether that the walkers all had on them at no cost and the Omnispex gave you some much needed anti-Cover shooting. Even outside of the War Convocation, this was considered a dummy choice.)
A melee and ranged weapon for your 4x unit leads
Some special issue wargear for the unit leads
A relic, maybe, for the unit leads.
Skitarii vehicle equipment(which was inordinately pricey and some of which wasn't allowed to be taken--i.e. no Smoke Launchers and Icarus Array for some reason--and none of it could be taken by anything but your Onagers)
You could alternate the off-hand weapon for the Kataphron(5 or 10 points but in many cases not considered worth it) since the primary weapon swaps were free.
You could add weapons/wargear/relics to a Techpriest Dominus.

And that was basically all you'd have points for even with "free" wargear since units and their upgrades still cost you points.

You remember when this thread was about Ynnari?

Kinda feel like there's a lot of this going around lately.

 daedalus wrote:
You remember when this thread was about Ynnari?

Kinda feel like there's a lot of this going around lately.

Well it was driven off-topic by one person who can't help but interject about his now impure skitarii army.

Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.

 Crimson wrote:
Ad Mech is led by Tech-Priests. It makes perfect sense to have some Tech-Priests in an Ad Mech army, even if it was primarily a Skitarii force. At minimun they need some priests to maintain their Dunecrawlers. The separation for two (three if you count the Knights) books was done for one reason alone: to sell people several books.

Except, again as stated, none of the two ways to use them as "several books" were in general circulation until The Gathering Storm...which didn't even give the War Convocation since they toned it down to the whining of all the people who wouldn't shut up about how "unfair" it was that they didn't get their hands on a copy of that White Dwarf or the webstore bundle(which I might add was actually awful as it didn't allow for Knights)

The White Dwarf with the War Convocation? Only legal way to get that formation. The webstore bundle? Only legal way to get that formation.

But I truly hope that 'Fires of Cyraxus' (when it will finally be released sometime in early 22nd century) will add a Skitarii HQ, if only to get Kan to shut up about it.

Deal with it. I've had to deal with people telling me that "your army should be rolled into X because otherwise GW is moneygrabbing!" for awhile now.

Reap what you sow.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.

I don't know how I feel about it. On paper, the Ynnari ability is bonkers. In practice, it seemed good but not game-breakingly so, but I was playing IG, and I know what people say about IG. But as IG, I've actually consistently had a harder time with CWE than Ynnari. I'm not sure if that's a strange thing to say or not, but it's the truth.

I can't speak objectively about any of my other armies against Ynnari, because I haven't had those games yet.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:
You remember when this thread was about Ynnari?

Kinda feel like there's a lot of this going around lately.

Well it was driven off-topic by one person who can't help but interject about his now impure skitarii army.

Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.

Reread the thread boss. And if you don't like my posting, there's an ignore button you can use.

The Skitarii thing came up after Galef decided to chime in with a gem of a comment about how unit counts should be the justification for an army getting a codex or not.
I commented on that and it's spun out since.

For what it's worth? I absolutely do think that Ynnari need help. I do think that this nerf was a bit much, but as mentioned, I have a hard time feeling sympathetic since many of the complaints concerning Commissar+Conscripts that resulted in the Commissar nerf(that basically put them in the same state as the Ynnari stuff at the moment) came from Eldar players who fielded the cheap-o detachment of 3x Dark Reapers and Yvraine.

I'm actually concerned that Yvraine might see a more significant nerf down the line as will Eldar psykers but the true culprit(Dark Reapers) remain untouched. The ability to completely mitigate all To Hit modifiers is an issue that needed to be addressed but wasn't.

 daedalus wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Anyways, the nerf may have been a bit much but I do hope that they'll help Ynnari out a bit further.

I don't know how I feel about it. On paper, the Ynnari ability is bonkers. In practice, it seemed good but not game-breakingly so, but I was playing IG, and I know what people say about IG. But as IG, I've actually consistently had a harder time with CWE than Ynnari. I'm not sure if that's a strange thing to say or not, but it's the truth.

I can't speak objectively about any of my other armies against Ynnari, because I haven't had those games yet.

I suspect Ynnari is gonna drop out of the meta for the most part, replaced by Alaitoc Craftworld armies.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.

Er... I'm sorry, you're saying that Imperial Guard only have a handful of units? This isn't by his logic, or by any logic at all. Skitarii have what, 6 or 7 units? With a couple of those being single models. Imperial guard have that many variants of a single tank chassis.

I'm not even sure if you could field an army consisting of a single unit of every unit option in the IG codex for less than 2000 points. Maybe if you remove superheavies and characters.

Your logic is.. bizarre.

And anyway, noone said that Skitarii shouldn't have a codex release, just that they shouldn't have a seperate release. If they were going to have one, it should have been a dual-codex with cult mech. Which... is basically what they got, so go figure.

Ynnari should get a release with Harlequins. Or they should both just get put into Chapter Approved.

Guys, just ... don't keep going. Is one of his personal crusades like the Imperial Guard sargeants with Lasguns. You are never gonna reach any kind of point. Let him think what he wants.

Niiru wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
I mean, if you are happy with an army that has the same handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games, than who am I to hinder your happiness?

So by your logic, Imperial Guard shouldn't be an army. After all, there's only a "handful of units that you have to repeat to even meet the 1500-2000 pt level of most games". Infantry Squad, Conscript Squad, and Scion Squad--and taking one of those means that it won't actually benefit from your Regimental Doctrines(Scions can't benefit from Regimental Doctrines when taken as part of a non-Militarum Tempestus exclusive force). Heck, you can't even really do what you could before with alternating Demolisher and Leman Russ Battle Tanks since all of those were rolled into one profile.

Er... I'm sorry, you're saying that Imperial Guard only have a handful of units? This isn't by his logic, or by any logic at all. Skitarii have what, 6 or 7 units? With a couple of those being single models. Imperial guard have that many variants of a single tank chassis.

I'm not even sure if you could field an army consisting of a single unit of every unit option in the IG codex for less than 2000 points. Maybe if you remove superheavies and characters.

Your logic is.. bizarre.

His statement implied that armies should have variety.

If you can't read my statement and figure out what is being implied there?
Skitarii have 6 or 7 units, spread across everything but HQ. And one of those units(Ballistarii) was previously a Heavy Support but is now a Fast Attack choice. Skitarii are also, compared to Guard, one faction. You have 6 subfactions making up the Imperial Guard codex--which range from one model (Priests) to two models (Mechanicus Enginseers+their Servitors, Aeronautica Imperialis) to 3 units(Officio Prefectus and Astra Telepathica) to 4 units (Militarum Auxilla and Tempestus) to 34 units(the Guard themselves).

How old are Skitarii, as an army, compared to Guard again? How many Guard unit choices are redundant at this point? We already saw all of the Demolisher variants rolled into the Leman Russ Battle Tank variants. The same thing could have happened with Commissars(barring Yarrick), with a Stratagem upgrading one into a Lord Commissar like the Captain->Chapter Master nonsense. The same thing could have happened with the Sentinels, with a Stratagem bringing in Scout Sentinels or Armoured Sentinels.

Pretending that one method or the other is acceptable or reasonable? Isn't.

And anyway, noone said that Skitarii shouldn't have a codex release, just that they shouldn't have a seperate release. If they were going to have one, it should have been a dual-codex with cult mech. Which... is basically what they got, so go figure.

Sure, and Eldar should have been released with Dark Eldar.

And no, that's not what happened. A "dual-codex" would be what Space Marines got, where you can field a Primaris Chapter or a non-Primaris Chapter or a mixed Chapter. As it stands, we got the worst of ideas where it was a half-assed job to meet the fan demands that "everything be the same book".

Ynnari should get a release with Harlequins. Or they should both just get put into Chapter Approved.

No, they really shouldn't. Putting full army lists into Chapter Approved as anything other than playtesting/stopgap is unacceptable behavior.

Addendum:
Sorry if this is coming across as mega-douchey or trolling. This is a subject I feel very strongly about and have written(pen & paper, mind you) to GW themselves about. I do not agree with shafting anyone's army in the manner that Skitarii were shafted(whether you agree with it being a "shafting" or not is irrelevant to my concerns--it was and I will continue to treat it as such) and feel that doing so is detrimental to the health and growth of 40k. Variety is the spice of life and the Adeptus Mechanicus book, I feel, was two steps backwards and a collapse to the ground wheezing. The introduction of the "Adeptus Mechanicus" faction title in 7th edition was a ray of hope for me that each army would be handled differently and be given room to grow differently.

Unfortunately that was not the case.

Now I'll bow out of this thread and let the Ynnari nerf discussions keep going while I go paint some Wanderers for AoS. Hopefully you all have a good night and I haven't soured the Dakka experience for any of you.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Niiru wrote:

And anyway, noone said that Skitarii shouldn't have a codex release, just that they shouldn't have a seperate release. If they were going to have one, it should have been a dual-codex with cult mech. Which... is basically what they got, so go figure.

Sure, and Eldar should have been released with Dark Eldar.

Yes, exactly. Now you're getting it.

Or you would be, if Eldar and Dark Eldar only had 6 units each. As they both have significantly more than that, it seems like you're completely missing the point yet again.

I'm with the previous guy - Your lack of logical thought is boring, so feel free to crusade on your own time.

Thread's about Ynnari, not grievances about Skitarii and Ad Mech. Take it to PM guys, you've filled up a page of nonsense insofar as Ynnari nerfs are concerned.

Speaking of which, totally over the top. Ynnari were in a fine place before.

Yea...this nerf really fethed my army hard.

I mostly use close combat Dark Eldar with some Wraith units. I even bring a Wraith Knight (shock and horror!) I've never really even considered bringing Dark Reapers.

I'm not sure how well my army will function now.

At this point I know GW hates me. So far they've gutted Chaos Marines for 3 editions (they're actually good again, but Primaris has turned me off of marines permanently), gutted Dark Eldar for 3 editions, eliminated my Black Templars Codex, not released anything for Sisters of Battle for over a decade and a half and Gutted Grey Knights. Now they went after my Ynarri...cool. Can GW actually just not feth with any of the actually cool armies out there? I mean, why can't I have nice things?

Did I mention they killed Warhammer Fantasy? feth AoS

That is getting a bit off the topic.

 Galef wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galef wrote:
Well, fingers crossed whenever Ynnari get a codex (hopefully a "dual" codex with Harlies) they make Soulburst fun, fluffy and fair without making it near useless as an army wide rule.

If you only get 1-2 Soulbursts per turn and NONE in the enemy turn AND you have to pay for a specific Character to unlock it (and thus denying your army relics and WL traits) than it should NOT replace Battle Focus, Power form Pain, etc.

As it stands right now, nothing points towards them getting a "dual" codex with anyone.

Nothing except logic, which I'll grant you may not be GW's strong suit.

But right now, Ynnari only have 3 units, all characters. Harlies only have 8 total units, 4 of which are characters and 2 share the vehicle kit.
Even if you put them in the same book, it would only consist of a dozen unit entries, 2 sets for WL traits & relics and 2 sets of Stratagems. That's a small book, but at least enough content overall.
If Harlies or Ynnari get separate books, neither would be a worthwhile amount of content to merit getting a book in the first place. Harlies might get their own Codex, but if Ynnari are not part of that book, it is unlikely they'll get one at all.

-

This looks less like logic and more like jumping to conclusions. What makes you think thats all they'll have in their codecies, I mean GW has to release some models next year and the only marine codex left for '18 is the space furries so they're both good candidates for fleshing out.

 Imateria wrote:
This looks less like logic and more like jumping to conclusions. What makes you think thats all they'll have in their codecies, I mean GW has to release some models next year and the only marine codex left for '18 is the space furries so they're both good candidates for fleshing out.

+1 for me.

Its probably too joined up thinking, but I wouldn't be surprised if this change was less about Ynnari doing okay in tournaments and more that they are trying to test some new Ynnari stuff and they can't stop it wiping the floor with everyone with the current rules.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
Yea...this nerf really fethed my army hard.

I mostly use close combat Dark Eldar with some Wraith units. I even bring a Wraith Knight (shock and horror!) I've never really even considered bringing Dark Reapers.

I'm not sure how well my army will function now.

At this point I know GW hates me. So far they've gutted Chaos Marines for 3 editions (they're actually good again, but Primaris has turned me off of marines permanently), gutted Dark Eldar for 3 editions, eliminated my Black Templars Codex, not released anything for Sisters of Battle for over a decade and a half and Gutted Grey Knights. Now they went after my Ynarri...cool. Can GW actually just not feth with any of the actually cool armies out there? I mean, why can't I have nice things?

Did I mention they killed Warhammer Fantasy? feth AoS

Well i use a heavy Wraith themed army mostly Craftworld focused and a Vanguard Detachment of Yvraine , Wraithguard , Wraithblades and one Spiritseer seems a sensible choice for Ynnari.

i can get a powerful unit extra round of shoot, an extra charge or melee round for the blades and the Spiritseer can be a perfect lynchpin for both units, getting extra move to reinforce other units or using the 2nd Psy power cast from soulburst to either heal and smite or just double heal when needed as his Path of the Shaper has no limit on uses.

This is bad nerf because it pretty muck kills pure Ynnari armies, but does little to cheesy tiny detachments of Yvraine + Reapers in Craftworld armies.

How does this exactly "kill" Ynnari?

The Eldar Craftworld traits are not amazing, Battle Focus is still meh. Ynnari will still soulburst at key times (yes, you will now have to plan better) but it will be less cheesy. Yvraine is still a great character, as is the Yncarne. You still have access to a wide variety of units in the same detachment and with points reductions for most Craftworld ones.
The downside is that to get access to strategems you need at least one Eldar detachment but that could simply be a Supreme Command one with a small Seer Council led by Eldrad (gain CP boosting ability warlord trait), give a second character the remnant of glory (ghosthelm to a spiritseer). Now you can use the strategms that are not Craftworld specific.

I'm tempted to play them today but want to give my Iyanden a go against their nemesis Kraken hivefleet.

It kills them because the soulburst doesn't scale with the army size; you can do each burst only once. It works OK for small detachments, but not so well for whole armies.

It is also super lame that not even the Word of Phoenix allows bypassing this limitation.