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 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).

You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.

Your culexus will be burned by flamethrowers, they ignore the BS/WS 6 and hit automatically. Orks will simply throw 120 CC attacks at him and kill him. Eldar with dark reapers also ignore his BS/WS 6 skill and hit on 3. And btw one culexus is -1 CP, no one with an elite army wants to do that.

p5freak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).

You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.

aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.


As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.

 Vaktathi wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).

You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.

aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.


As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.

Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?

The way you deal with 14 Primaris Psykers varies based on what army you are playing and how you plan your game, as well as the scenario.

There is no panacea I can tell you that will 100% work, because that's not how 40k do.

Darsath wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).

You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.

aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.


As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.

Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?

IG can easily run 3 brigades. Nice try though.

Darsath wrote:
Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?

It's a bit of a strawman, but it's hardly going to the hall of fame.

His point about the variables you have available to you is the real point though. You know the movement of the psykers, you know the range of their power, and you know the targeting limitations of the power, which you can manipulate to your advantage.

In order for this hypothesized psyker rush to occur, the AM player has to be moving a fairly significant bubble screen up as well, otherwise, those psykers will die a fairly quick and ignoble death.

I mean, we could get in to all kinds of hypothetical scenarios on this, but ultimately, you're the one deciding which units in your army are getting hit with Smite. I'd probably just feed him Horrors and Cultists until I felt I needed to deal with them. I guess I'm just not seeing the magic here, I mean to pull off the 14 psyker Primaris rush super-sayan annihilation move your opponent would be running at least 3-4 Supreme Command detachments, so yes, it could be done relatively easily, for probably less than a 1000 points. Assuming you have the bubble screen and the Commissar up there to give them cover, at least one will suffer perils each turn, which won't be a problem unless they're within 6" of the Commissar, in which case he will kill them. But according to some very upset AM players, nobody will be using Commissars anymore, so that's probably not a concern.

Of course armies with chaff and hordes don't have a problem with Psyker and Smite spam. And the funny thing is that the armies with the most tools to protec themselves agaisn't Smite spam and MW spam are the ones that can do those on the first place: Imperial Guard, Chaos Soup, Orks.

The problem is armies like Grey Knights, forces like Custodes, Space Marines heavy armies, etc... those have literally 0 ways to counter those cheap psyker spam.
Really guys, Chaos Soup spamming ML is in all the TOP5 of every tournament out there and you are saying basically to "git gud"?

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:

Darsath wrote:
Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units. And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers, and that 18" is short range. Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?

It's a bit of a strawman, but it's hardly going to the hall of fame.

His point about the variables you have available to you is the real point though. You know the movement of the psykers, you know the range of their power, and you know the targeting limitations of the power, which you can manipulate to your advantage.

In order for this hypothesized psyker rush to occur, the AM player has to be moving a fairly significant bubble screen up as well, otherwise, those psykers will die a fairly quick and ignoble death.

I mean, we could get in to all kinds of hypothetical scenarios on this, but ultimately, you're the one deciding which units in your army are getting hit with Smite. I'd probably just feed him Horrors and Cultists until I felt I needed to deal with them. I guess I'm just not seeing the magic here, I mean to pull off the 14 psyker Primaris rush super-sayan annihilation move your opponent would be running at least 3-4 Supreme Command detachments, so yes, it could be done relatively easily, for probably less than a 1000 points. Assuming you have the bubble screen and the Commissar up there to give them cover, at least one will suffer perils each turn, which won't be a problem unless they're within 6" of the Commissar, in which case he will kill them. But according to some very upset AM players, nobody will be using Commissars anymore, so that's probably not a concern.

2 Supreme Commands + 1 Brigade is 15 HQ choices, so pretty easy to get to those 14 psykers if you want to. The same is true for Malefic lords in chaos. now you probably won't run that many but 8-10 is not unreasonable. SO if you have 12(for easy math), you are looking at 10 successful casts of smite, which typically will amount to 1D6 + 9D3 mortal wounds or 21.5 mortal wounds for 480 points. Are there ways to play around this for a turn. Sure you can deny a few, put a chump unit or 2 in the path, snipe a few. But it is hardly easy to do given the character rules and mobility of the psykers mitigating some of the ability to play around them.

 Galas wrote:
Of course armies with chaff and hordes don't have a problem with Psyker and Smite spam. And the funny thing is that the armies with the most tools to protec themselves agaisn't Smite spam and MW spam are the ones that can do those on the first place: Imperial Guard, Chaos Soup, Orks.

The problem is armies like Grey Knights, forces like Custodes, Space Marines heavy armies, etc... those have literally 0 ways to counter those cheap psyker spam.
Really guys, Chaos Soup spamming ML is in all the TOP5 of every tournament out there and you are saying basically to "git gud"?

I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.

 Galas wrote:
Of course armies with chaff and hordes don't have a problem with Psyker and Smite spam. And the funny thing is that the armies with the most tools to protec themselves agaisn't Smite spam and MW spam are the ones that can do those on the first place: Imperial Guard, Chaos Soup, Orks.

The problem is armies like Grey Knights, forces like Custodes, Space Marines heavy armies, etc... those have literally 0 ways to counter those cheap psyker spam.
Really guys, Chaos Soup spamming ML is in all the TOP5 of every tournament out there and you are saying basically to "git gud"?

This is so true. As an Ork player I have have had some succes with smite-spamming by running six weirdboyz.

And Weirdboyz are 62 points. If they were 40 or 30 points they would be really broken rather than just really good. Conversely, if Primaris Psykers and Malefic Lords also were 62 points per model, then people would still run them, they would just not be as easily spammable.

Darsath wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

p5freak wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

That is 8-10 mortal wounds on a target of the opponent's choice, largely. And that is if they get the power off every time, aren't denied, and the closest unit is not immune to psychic powers (e.g. Culexus).

You have no clue. AM can easily spam 14 primaris psykers in a 2k game. How are you going to deny that ?? Psykers can advance and still smite. There is no way you can control what your enemy will smite.

aside from the fact that Smite can only hit the closest target and you control what that is and you know the movement capabilities of the psykers.


As for fitting 14 Primaris HQ psykers in 2kpts...not if you're playing by the Matched Play detachment limits and want anything else relevant in the army. And if that's what they're spamming, then they're not taking much of the stuff thats largely making IG powerful, and are playing a relatively close range gimmick army. I dont believe we've seen such an army do particularly well consistetly, there's a good number of hardcounters to a list like that.

Never before have I read a strawman this bad. Your argument is that 14 Primaris Psychers couldn't be fit into a 2k army due to detachment limits, even when a detachment exists for running solely HQ units.

I acknowledge that such is possible, but if youre limited to three detachments, and are taking 14 psykers, how are you arranging that such that you can spam all those psykers and still have slots for everythung else you want to take? Those HQ detachments arent letting you bring Manticores or Conscripts or masses of guardsmen or the like, and if youre dumping primaris psykers into all your HQ slots, youve got none left for Orders HQ's, Tank Commanders, etc.

And as a defence, you state that IG have units even more broken than people's opinions on primaris psychers

The point was that the strength of the IG army is not in Primaris psykers. When people are talking about counter-IG tactics, its generally along the lines of dealing with infantry screens, armor and artillery, not Smite Spam.

and that 18" is short range.

it is when those units have to hide behind other units to avoid being attacked, especially in an army replete with weapons that can attack across the table...or in fact multiple tables...

18" range weapons arent typically considered "long range", especially in an IG army.

Then, as a final point, you state than no list relying on spamming many psychers has ever done well, and that such hardcounters are already prevalent?

Are 14 Primaris Psyker armies consistently dominating events? No, not that I can see. That was my point. They generally seem to be artillery heavy armies, not Smite spam with double digits of such psykers. They appear to have had a success or two, but are going to be heavily matchup dependent, and dont appear to consistently be good "all comers" armies thus far.

Hardcounters are anything not worth using Smite on (e.g. such as basic infantry, a Green Tide may not be great against most other armies, but Smite Spam is fairly impotent against it, Cultists will do the job, same with Guardsmen or Gaunts or empty rhinos and whatnot) and keeping literally anything in front of the stuff you dont want Smited, Culexus assassins, Hive Fleet Kronos, etc.

 Xenomancers wrote:

IG can easily run 3 brigades. Nice try though.

In 2000pts? They can theoretically fit 3 Brigades in with nothing but barebones units...but ah...thats about it...

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:


His point about the variables you have available to you is the real point though. You know the movement of the psykers, you know the range of their power, and you know the targeting limitations of the power, which you can manipulate to your advantage.

In order for this hypothesized psyker rush to occur, the AM player has to be moving a fairly significant bubble screen up as well, otherwise, those psykers will die a fairly quick and ignoble death.

I mean, we could get in to all kinds of hypothetical scenarios on this, but ultimately, you're the one deciding which units in your army are getting hit with Smite.

^what he said

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.

This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?

These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.

kombatwombat wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.

This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?

These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.

I would think that with the Shadowsord, the Psykers would be superfluous

(tbh, the Shadowsword needs some toning down or a price bump).

You'd have the exact same issue with any army sporting lots of multi-damage weapons. You don't need Smite Spam to wipe a GK army or Custodes. Lots of armies will do it from across the table and without needing to play shennanigans with psychic powers and characters. Any army sporting lots of plasma or autocannons, Russ or Baneblade or Artillery companies, Eldar Fire Prism squadrons, etc ad nauseum. There's all sorts of things that mulch melee oriented low model count heavy infantry armies, they've historically been amongst the hardest to play except in editions where they allowed weird gimmicks with wound allocation.

 Vaktathi wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.

This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?

These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.

I would think that with the Shadowsord, the Psykers would be superfluous

(tbh, the Shadowsword needs some toning down or a price bump).

You'd have the exact same issue with any army sporting lots of multi-damage weapons. You don't need Smite Spam to wipe a GK army or Custodes. Lots of armies will do it from across the table and without needing to play shennanigans with psychic powers and characters. Any army sporting lots of plasma or autocannons, Russ or Baneblade or Artillery companies, Eldar Fire Prism squadrons, etc ad nauseum. There's all sorts of things that mulch melee oriented low model count heavy infantry armies, they've historically been amongst the hardest to play except in editions where they allowed weird gimmicks with wound allocation.

Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.

I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.

Audustum wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

kombatwombat wrote:

 TwinPoleTheory wrote:
I'm saying you have control over what Smite hits, meaning for the most part, you can make sure it hits the most expendable aspects of your army. Clearly, if the Primaris super-sayan psyker assault is the primary threat in their army to you, you should focus on it and kill it. But this idea that you have no control, like you're a sub in a dungeon is absurd.

This is great in theory for shooting armies and armies with chaff units available - or, in other words, armies that care little about Smite. But what about armies that are actually suffering from Smite Spam - namely elite close combat armies like Grey Knights, Custodes, Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Black Templars?

These armies have to get into assault to do real damage. Getting into assault means you are either the closest unit to the enemy, or close enough that you can’t avoid your opponent manoeuvring to make you the closest. This is particularly problematic if your opponent is smart enough to concentrate his Smite Spam around the other units you really need to kill - like a Shadowsword or an artillery parking lot. Something that your assault heavy hitters really need to engage quickly and neutralise if you’re going to have a chance to win. Putting half a dozen Primaris Psykers 12” away from a Shadowsword with a smattering of infantry in the gap effectively shuts down an elite combat army.

I would think that with the Shadowsord, the Psykers would be superfluous

(tbh, the Shadowsword needs some toning down or a price bump).

You'd have the exact same issue with any army sporting lots of multi-damage weapons. You don't need Smite Spam to wipe a GK army or Custodes. Lots of armies will do it from across the table and without needing to play shennanigans with psychic powers and characters. Any army sporting lots of plasma or autocannons, Russ or Baneblade or Artillery companies, Eldar Fire Prism squadrons, etc ad nauseum. There's all sorts of things that mulch melee oriented low model count heavy infantry armies, they've historically been amongst the hardest to play except in editions where they allowed weird gimmicks with wound allocation.

Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.

I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.

I have a Grey Knights army, I've got a CSM army with tons of Terminators and Obliterators. I get how it works, but those guns are going to be able to hit those units at longer ranges if they're not DS'ing in directly on top of them, and there's usually a whole lot more of them.

Marching Custodes across the field, they may survive longer against heavy weapons than against Smite, but those heavy weapons are getting more turns to shoot and can be taken in vastly larger quantities and employed with greater ease and are much harder to hide from. The Primaris Psykers have to spend time getting into range (so many turns they may not be able to use Smite at all) and ensure that there's nothing closer or the Custodes are immune from the attack, while also ensuring those Primaris psykers have a screening buffer themselves to ensure they can't be attacked, which can muck with that 18" range. That can be really awkward to work with and can be disrupted by lots of different means given that it's usually guardsmen that form the screen.

Where the Smite Spam shines is when you bring yourself to it and DS 9" away from the infantry blob.

Ultimately however, elite assault armies are difficult to balance around as well, their limited numbers and variety of unit types as well as limited total battlefield actions and interactions, coupled with their short ranged nature, means that they're inherently going to lack capabilities other armies find easily and be much more vulnerable to certain things as a result. Having something as simple as an empty Rhino that any SM list may have (the unit may choose not to ride in it or something) out front can screen from Smite unless its dealt with first, but doesn't have much purpose in a Custodes army. Armies of elite multiwound assault models have always faced something of a balance pendulum.

You keep repeating that artillery gets to shoot longer, but that doesn't matter. It's why I said do the math. It takes a frightening amount of firepower to wipe the Custodes squad. You'll definitely get stuff in range and done in that time.

Not so with Smite Spam. 6 Primaris has decent odds of wiping the whole squad in a single turn.

And you're going to have to get in range of them to hit targets of value. Elite armies are not usually great shooters.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.

You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.

Okay not familiar with culexus rules but what stops enemy from killing them first? If they are closest they would also be not protected by character rules so would be free targets to shoot as well. Dead culexus isn't providing much of anti-psyker. How tough they are? Like 3++ and 6+ wounds or something?

T4, W5, 4++. But attacks that target him are made at WS6+/BS6+.

They're good at locking stuff up.

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.

You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.

Okay not familiar with culexus rules but what stops enemy from killing them first? If they are closest they would also be not protected by character rules so would be free targets to shoot as well. Dead culexus isn't providing much of anti-psyker. How tough they are? Like 3++ and 6+ wounds or something?

The psychic phase comes before shooting/CC. A culexus can delay some spite spam one/two turns until he dies. He has a special rule, you only hit the culexus on 6+, no matter what your WS/BS is, and he has a 4+ invuln sv. But there are ways around it. Flamers still autohit him. Eldar dark reaper hit him on 3+, and orks dont care about 6+ because they attack him with 30 boyz in CC, which have 120 attacks. Another way around him is to block him from LOS with a vehicle, then he isnt the closest visible enemy unit.

p5freak wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
If we are going to change the rules, then the best rules change in this situation is to add psychic defense to armies that lack it.

You can completely shut down those 5-7 smites by having a Culexus the closest model or anywhere nearby, for 1/3rd the price. 3 Culexus could completely obviate those psyker's smites and eventually outright kill them. That sort of psychic defense on everyone should be accessible.

Okay not familiar with culexus rules but what stops enemy from killing them first? If they are closest they would also be not protected by character rules so would be free targets to shoot as well. Dead culexus isn't providing much of anti-psyker. How tough they are? Like 3++ and 6+ wounds or something?

The psychic phase comes before shooting/CC. A culexus can delay some spite spam one/two turns until he dies. He has a special rule, you only hit the culexus on 6+, no matter what your WS/BS is, and he has a 4+ invuln sv. But there are ways around it. Flamers still autohit him. Eldar dark reaper hit him on 3+, and orks dont care about 6+ because they attack him with 30 boyz in CC, which have 120 attacks. Another way around him is to block him from LOS with a vehicle, then he isnt the closest visible enemy unit.

Well trio of them is expensive turn delay but that 6+ to hit is bit of a bummer. But some cheap vehicles(maybe with flamers!) to block LOS sorts that out as you noted.

Guess Culexus is...workable but not uber protection and only available for imperial soup. So to combat top-2 faction you need to be...same faction? Nice one. Chaos soup has access to same smite spam as defence. What about the rest of them? (well orks dont' mind too much. Cheap boyz + smite spam of their own)

 Galas wrote:
Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.

And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.

That's fair enough, but most of the time 40K can end up boiling down to be a bit rock/paper/scissors. To me this is just a case of rock (leet unit armies) complaining about EDIT: paper! (lol) (a way to beat it).

 spoonlamp wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.

And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.

That's fair enough, but most of the time 40K can end up boiling down to be a bit rock/paper/scissors. To me this is just a case of rock (leet unit armies) complaining about scissors (a way to beat it).

Scissors beats rock now? You loose a lot at rock/paper/scissors don't you?

pismakron wrote:

 spoonlamp wrote:

 Galas wrote:
Theres many armies that literally can't blob, deny or snipe 5-7 cheap psykers before they totally destroy them because they are a elite army.

And it is not like they are facing those psykers alone. Those 5-7 spykerrs are like 240 points. Thats other 1760 points to deal with supporting those psykers.

That's fair enough, but most of the time 40K can end up boiling down to be a bit rock/paper/scissors. To me this is just a case of rock (leet unit armies) complaining about scissors (a way to beat it).

Scissors beats rock now? You loose a lot at rock/paper/scissors don't you?

I kept looking at that as well cos it looked off lol

Ork kult of speed and dread mobs suffer just as much from smite spam, since they usually don't have blobs of boyz in their army.

There were times where green tide was not the only viable army you could build out of the ork army.

Smiting boys with Primaris/ML isnt that inefficient. Its just not as good as smiting 15-20 points per wound models where you make your points back each cast.

When we were told the mission I was practically quaking in my boots. Thirty of us lads were being sent in to clear a building, normal enough. We always expect casualties, but this time was different. This time the 5th Umbra Rifles were heading into a warzone too hot for the Emperor's Finest. A squad of Ultramarine Reivers had been sent to breach and clear the enemy fortification whilst we held the streets against the mobs of cultists outside, only one had made it out, blood streaming from his ears.

When we stormed the building we expected no one to come out alive, it was a last desperate charge, but inside were just a couple of pissant renegade witches. Sure they took out Infantryman Jones and Sergeant Woo, but the rest of us put our trusty Lasguns to use and that was that. Bit of an anticlimax if you ask me.

-Infantryman Collins, 5th Umbra Rifles

Audustum wrote:

Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.

I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.

Assuming averages using bs4 and no buffs:

you need '9' autocannon shots to get one failed save, so effectively 9 autocannons to kill one custodian with their 3++ and 3 wounds - for GMen HWT thats 189 points in 3 units.

For plasma at overcharge, it's 12 shots to average 2 wounds - two GMen SWS at rapid fire delivers 1 dead custodian for 180 points

For HBolters you need *36* shots average to kill 1 custodian - or 4 GMen HWTs at a reasonable 168

So in a vacuum, and assuming the primaris can get in range and does 1 wound, the primaris is far and away more points efficient for killing Shielded Custodians.

However; engineering the 'vacuum' for that to occur is no small feat.

I suppose that it *does* somewhat break the Old Ways of 6&7th and the little lamented death star - hence the public displeasure?

Put an appropriate casting value next to the word smite on each unit that has it, I don't think it should be 5 for everyone. Of course this is never going to happen now.

I haven't seen much issue with spamming Smite. It's obviously meant to be a hard counter to expensive units with invuls. Utilizing screen units is the solution and almost mandatory in 8th edition. At tournaments I've been to, all top placing armies have had plenty of chaff units. I played a GK player at the SoCal (who placed 3rd or 4th overall) and even he had squads of conscripts mixed in with his main GK forces. I have seen good players able to adapt, not have to spam smite themselves, and win games against smite spam armies. Not only is it possible, it happens with enough frequency to argue that smite spamming is fine and not broken, even if it creates occasional frustration for the unprepared player.

 malamis wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Do the math and tell us how long it takes plasma and autocannons to kill a Custodes unit with 4-5 3++'s vs. the 6 Primaris Psykers. Cause the psykers are going to do it faster and cheaper.

I play mostly elite assault armies. They can survive getting across the board except all but the heaviest artillery spam lists. It's when they get mortal wounds blitzed that they drop like a sack of dirt.

Assuming averages using bs4 and no buffs:

you need '9' autocannon shots to get one failed save, so effectively 9 autocannons to kill one custodian with their 3++ and 3 wounds - for GMen HWT thats 189 points in 3 units.

For plasma at overcharge, it's 12 shots to average 2 wounds - two GMen SWS at rapid fire delivers 1 dead custodian for 180 points

For HBolters you need *36* shots average to kill 1 custodian - or 4 GMen HWTs at a reasonable 168

So in a vacuum, and assuming the primaris can get in range and does 1 wound, the primaris is far and away more points efficient for killing Shielded Custodians.

However; engineering the 'vacuum' for that to occur is no small feat.

I suppose that it *does* somewhat break the Old Ways of 6&7th and the little lamented death star - hence the public displeasure?

Mortal Wounds are the tool to deal with ultra-resistent units, yeah. But you don't see people complaining about smite and Mortal Wounds from normal psykers. People complaint about mortal wound spam with psykers that cost 25-50 points.
Really guys, this "git gud" and denial about the problems of Smite Spam with Malefic Lords and Primaris Psykers is just awful. They are moping all the tournament tables, specially the Malefic Lords ones that are even worse than the Primaris Psykers, and you are here, on dakka dakka... "Nah, thats fine. Is that you don't know how to play agaisn't it".
Just like Conscripts+Commisar, just like Guilliman+Assback, I suppose? Is not that they are OP and thats the reason why they are in every TOP10 tournament list. Is just that people don't know how to play. In tournaments.

 Bach wrote:
I haven't seen much issue with spamming Smite. It's obviously meant to be a hard counter to expensive units with invuls. Utilizing screen units is the solution and almost mandatory in 8th edition. At tournaments I've been to, all top placing armies have had plenty of chaff units. I played a GK player at the SoCal (who placed 3rd or 4th overall) and even he had squads of conscripts mixed in with his main GK forces. I have seen good players able to adapt, not have to spam smite themselves, and win games against smite spam armies. Not only is it possible, it happens with enough frequency to argue that smite spamming is fine and not broken, even if it creates occasional frustration for the unprepared player.

Smite spam is fine. You just need to spamm chaff. Unless you are Necrons or Non-BoyzSpam Orks or Tau. Then screw you and git gud. Go play Imperial you xenos scum.
Seriously I can't understand how people is fine with the idea that you need chaff (Or directly to ally, and not ally with Custodes, but with full armies like space marines) no matter the army you are playing. And thats totally fine? Disgusting.