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 Infantryman wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:
So with this change a warpflamer would be what, AP-4? The rubric might actually be worth his 33 points with that.

I don't know anything about Warpflamers, unfortunately.

Warpflamers are the Rubric flamer weapon that's identical to a regular flamer, except it costs 15 points and is AP-2.

pismakron wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:


10 man light infantry is not relevant.

The Guard Infantry Squad is easily the best troop choice in the game. By a considerable margin. They are very, very relevant.

Not for screening. At least not in my experience.

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes sense, but the issue of hordes not caring about flamers at all is real.

Would auto 6 hits make them care?

Yes but elite units care even more.

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes sense, but the issue of hordes not caring about flamers at all is real.

Would auto 6 hits make them care?

Yes but elite units care even more.

Elite in a unit of 10 or more? i guess though most elite units come in 3 or 5

(original premises that flamers should follow the demolisher idea of doing different things depending on the size of the unit)

 Desubot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes sense, but the issue of hordes not caring about flamers at all is real.

Would auto 6 hits make them care?

Yes but elite units care even more.

Elite in a unit of 10 or more? i guess though most elite units come in 3 or 5

Genestealers and Necron Warriors are as elite as space marines and are very often taken in units of 20. The archetypical cheap horde unit is the Guard infantry squad, that always comes in units of 10. The premise that "horde" equals larger unit sizes simply does not always hold true.

pismakron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes sense, but the issue of hordes not caring about flamers at all is real.

Would auto 6 hits make them care?

Yes but elite units care even more.

Elite in a unit of 10 or more? i guess though most elite units come in 3 or 5

Genestealers and Necron Warriors are as elite as space marines and are very often taken in units of 20. The archetypical cheap horde unit is the Guard infantry squad, that always comes in units of 10. The premise that "horde" equals larger unit sizes simply does not always hold true.

Perhaps above average in their respective abilities but elites? that seems like a stretch.

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes sense, but the issue of hordes not caring about flamers at all is real.

Would auto 6 hits make them care?

Yes but elite units care even more.

Elite in a unit of 10 or more? i guess though most elite units come in 3 or 5

Genestealers and Necron Warriors are as elite as space marines and are very often taken in units of 20. The archetypical cheap horde unit is the Guard infantry squad, that always comes in units of 10. The premise that "horde" equals larger unit sizes simply does not always hold true.

Perhaps above average in their respective abilities but elites? that seems like a stretch.

Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

pismakron wrote:


Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

But wait

Flamers are st4 it does kill the latter more efficiently. 3s vs 4s.

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

But wait

Flamers are st4 it does kill the latter more efficiently. 3s vs 4s.

An S4 AP0 attack will kill 1.7 points of Guardsman, 3 points of Necron Warrior, or 4 points of Genestealer.

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

But wait

Flamers are st4 it does kill the latter more efficiently. 3s vs 4s.

Yes but they also cost lot less...

Here's the thing. You have T4 2+ save guy vs T3 6+ save guy. Obviously your assault 20 S3 AP0 is going to kill more T3+ 6+ save guys than T4 2+ save guys. HOWEVER when you factor in PRICE of target unit you tend to find out that wait a sec I killed more points(ie bigger part of opponents army) from T4 2+ save guys than T3 6+ save guys! Yes in terms of models you killed more of the horde but in terms of value of targets elites suffered more. Bigger chunk of his army got blown than horde army that laughs at it.

This is why there's currently no real anti-horde weapon. Yes assault 20 is all nice and good but those 20 shots will still shred bigger chunk out of elite army. In 7th ed and before blast weapons at least served as anti-horde weapons as they got more hits against horde army. Now that doesn't work. Unless something can be done that simulates that only real solution would be buff survivability of elite units against anti-horde weapons and as neccessary buff the anti-elite weapons to compensate thus ensuring that weapons thare supposed to be anti-horde takes efficiency drop against elite units while anti-elite guns are just as effective vs them(but not buff enough they would step in way of anti-horde weapons least we end up with use against all weapon!) as they are now.

pismakron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

But wait

Flamers are st4 it does kill the latter more efficiently. 3s vs 4s.

An S4 AP0 attack will kill 1.7 points of Guardsman, 3 points of Necron Warrior, or 4 points of Genestealer.

then mathematically its impossible to beat guardsman. the only thing that could possible even the playing field is for battle shock to take a bunch more with them.

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

But wait

Flamers are st4 it does kill the latter more efficiently. 3s vs 4s.

An S4 AP0 attack will kill 1.7 points of Guardsman, 3 points of Necron Warrior, or 4 points of Genestealer.

then mathematically its impossible to beat guardsman. the only thing that could possible even the playing field is for battle shock to take a bunch more with them.

It is nothing that cannot be changed by simple points adjustment. A T4 3+ wound should be just about slightly more than twice as expensive as a T3 5+ wound. Say 11 points to 5 points respectively. Then there would be lots of weapons that killed either wound-profile more efficiently than the other. Heavy bolters vs lasguns for example.

pismakron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

pismakron wrote:


Warriors are 12 points per wound, whereas Genestealers are 12-16 points per wound. That is right up there with Primaris Marines. And both Necron Warriors and Stealers are very fragile for that reason, whereas Guardsmen are heinously durable because they are only 4 points per wound. Flamers and other horde-killers need to be able to kill the latter more efficiently than the former, and that is a difficult thing to accomplish.

But wait

Flamers are st4 it does kill the latter more efficiently. 3s vs 4s.

An S4 AP0 attack will kill 1.7 points of Guardsman, 3 points of Necron Warrior, or 4 points of Genestealer.

then mathematically its impossible to beat guardsman. the only thing that could possible even the playing field is for battle shock to take a bunch more with them.

It is nothing that cannot be changed by simple points adjustment. A T4 3+ wound should be just about slightly more than twice as expensive as a T3 5+ wound. Say 11 points to 5 points respectively. Then there would be lots of weapons that killed either wound-profile more efficiently than the other. Heavy bolters vs lasguns for example.

Then yeah this isnt a problem with the flamer which this thread is about but rather the efficiency or lack there of for a few other elite like units.

I think this sort of flamers gets more efficient against bigger units is the right step in making it more of a viable (or at least consider taking over plasma) weapon. also curious as to why flamers no longer ignore cover.

tneva82 wrote:
In 7th ed and before blast weapons at least served as anti-horde weapons as they got more hits against horde army. Now that doesn't work. Unless something can be done that simulates that only real solution would be buff survivability of elite units against anti-horde weapons and as neccessary buff the anti-elite weapons to compensate thus ensuring that weapons thare supposed to be anti-horde takes efficiency drop against elite units while anti-elite guns are just as effective vs them(but not buff enough they would step in way of anti-horde weapons least we end up with use against all weapon!) as they are now.

A much more straightforward solution would be to adjust the point-costs of the wounds. A T3 5+ model should be about 5 points per wound, whereas a T4 3+ model should be around 11 points per wound. Something in that vicinity. Then the already existing weapons would be slightly more efficient at killing hordes and slightly less efficient at killing power-armour dudes.

 Desubot wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Which makes sense, but the issue of hordes not caring about flamers at all is real.

Would auto 6 hits make them care?

Yes but elite units care even more.

Elite in a unit of 10 or more? i guess though most elite units come in 3 or 5

(original premises that flamers should follow the demolisher idea of doing different things depending on the size of the unit)

Rubric Marines can come in a squad of up to 20, and if Rubrics aren't elite then nothing short of Custodes are.

pismakron wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
In 7th ed and before blast weapons at least served as anti-horde weapons as they got more hits against horde army. Now that doesn't work. Unless something can be done that simulates that only real solution would be buff survivability of elite units against anti-horde weapons and as neccessary buff the anti-elite weapons to compensate thus ensuring that weapons thare supposed to be anti-horde takes efficiency drop against elite units while anti-elite guns are just as effective vs them(but not buff enough they would step in way of anti-horde weapons least we end up with use against all weapon!) as they are now.

A much more straightforward solution would be to adjust the point-costs of the wounds. A T3 5+ model should be about 5 points per wound, whereas a T4 3+ model should be around 11 points per wound. Something in that vicinity. Then the already existing weapons would be slightly more efficient at killing hordes and slightly less efficient at killing power-armour dudes.

I can live with guardsman being 5 pts apiece, it gives conscripts a purpose and they cost that much pretty much for 3 editions (when you factored in the cost of a mandatory sgt at 10pts). It also makes veterans a nice alternative since they are 6 points and lines up everything nice and neat making your choices more meaningful to playstyle and tactical purpose (all rounder, screen/objectives, fire power) than to pure mathematics like it is now.

As for flamers, we can go even further and make it 3+D3 hits for units above 5 and then a solid 6 against 10+ units. This is favorable to flamers being anti horde while not punishing vehicles and elites. really can't get better than that, especially when you consider that you are in easy charge range when using them and you can't use them on deep strike. BAM, toasty guardsman