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So, the odds of killing 18/30 people (assuming GEQs and, hell, let's say a Heavy Flamer) are:

((1/6)^3)*((2/3)^18)*((5/6)^18)

Or, in an easier to understand number, .0000117%. Yes, that's percent.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

NO. As it is Flamers are scary good at killing Elites making them cheaper would only exacerbate the problem.

Really ? A unit with 5 flamers against terminators. They score 17,5 hits, 8 wounds, termis make their 2+ sv roll and 1 model loses 1 wound. Wow, very impressive.

Lets see how 22 stormbolters compare to that, for the same point cost as 5 flamers. The 22 stormbolters have 88 shots at 8", they hit on 3+, thats 58 hits, 29 wounds, termis make their 2+ sv, and 2 terminators die.

Flamers are scary good at killing elites

CassianSol wrote:

p5freak wrote:

CassianSol wrote:

Flamers are not doing damage to flyers.

Where does it say that flyers are immune to flamers ? I cant find it in the rules.

It is clear from context that I don't mean that. Flamers are no threat to vehicles (with rare exception) in practice, so the oddity that flamers can hit flyers is nota real problem.

Immolation flamers do okay, you'll still only strip maybe 2-3 hulpoints off but that's about the same as 2 lascannons so...

The heck are hull points?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:
The heck are hull points?

M.

6th and 7th version of wounds for vehicles.

p5freak wrote:


Really ? A unit with 5 flamers against terminators. They score 17,5 hits, 8 wounds, termis make their 2+ sv roll and 1 model loses 1 wound. Wow, very impressive.

Lets see how 22 stormbolters compare to that, for the same point cost as 5 flamers. The 22 stormbolters have 88 shots at 8", they hit on 3+, thats 58 hits, 29 wounds, termis make their 2+ sv, and 2 terminators die.

Flamers are scary good at killing elites

MY GOD YOUR RIGHT.

Oh wait you have to attach those to models. Which means you made a
comparison that every one should ignore. Not to mention you used Termies and only Termies in your example. Which means your comparison should be ignored twice.

You also started from 8" for some reason which isn't the threat range of flamers it would be more like 12" but that makes little difference.

And why are you using the point cost of Flamers for SM and not for AM? Well lets see if we can sbore tbis up a bit.

The cheapest flamer you can put on the field is 11 points with the cheapest Stormbolter you can put on the field is 15 points so right there your comparison was off by a pretty large factor. That's 3 Strombolters to 4 Flamers or 12 bolter SHOTS to 14 Flamer HITS.

12*.66*.5*.165=.653

14*.5*.165=.99

Oh my, what happened you were so right when you left out impirtant information like how much the frame these weapons come on was taken out.

Lets not stop there what about MEQ?

12*.66*.5*.33=1.30

14*.5*.33=1.98

Damn again your wrong.

Maybe next time try being honest and compare like with like rather then comparing the least expensive frame to the most expensive one.

You want a comparison with model pts. included ? Very well. 5 company veterans with 5 stormbolters are 90 pts. How many flamers do we get for them at 90 pts. ? One Now, lets recalculate.

20*0,67*0,5*0,165=1,1

3,5*0,5*0,165=0,28875

Against MEQ :

20*0,67*0,5*0,33=2,211

3,5*0,5*0,33=0,5775

Damn again im right.

p5freak wrote:
You want a comparison with model pts. included ? Very well. 5 company veterans with 5 stormbolters are 90 pts. How many flamers do we get for them at 90 pts. ? One Now, lets recalculate.

20*0,67*0,5*0,165=1,1

3,5*0,5*0,165=0,28875

Against MEQ :

20*0,67*0,5*0,33=2,211

3,5*0,5*0,33=0,5775

Damn again im right.

WHy would you only get 1 Flamer for 90 points? There are units in the game that can come with all flamers last I checked.

Is it just me or does there sound something false about comparing one model shooting with 5?
On the very least you need to add 0.583 wounds of lasgun shots against MEQ and 0.291 wounds against terminators.

Also overwatch needs to compared (it's a flamers primary function in 8th) and in overwatch the one flamer guy does as much dmg on average as the enite storm bolter squad together.

While we are on the subject there is another interesting numbet that needs to be taken into consideration here: standad deviation. I don't have the time to run the numbers on that right now but it can be important because flamers eliminate a roll (the hit roll) and that is a massive advantage in a game of chance. Also that math sucks because you are not dealing with normal chances here.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

The cheapest flamer you can put on the field is 11 points with the cheapest Stormbolter you can put on the field is 15 points

What the hell?

I think he's comparing Guardsmen special weapon squads with flamers, to MEQs with stormbolters, while ignoring that the Guardsmen have infinately less durability, range, and no innate way of delivering the flamers, and will die after their shots.

His comparisons make absolutely no sense, which doesn't help that he's being really gakky about it too.

This thread doesn't make any sense atm.

Flamers need a price decrease and an AP increase.

Burning fuel gets in gaps and burns away oxygen - both of these effectively ignore armor...and cover.

My gakky suggestion is AP4, because Sv 3+ seems to be about where you see "sealed" suits.

I think AP doesn't remove Cover, yes? If not, Flamers should ignore it, probably.

Range is...fine. But only because of alpha strike type situations. Really, you shouldn't bring a flamethrower to an open field battle and expect great results - it is for built up areas, bushes, and bunkers.

How about 6 points for 8", S4, AP-4, Auto Hit, Ignore Cover?

Slightly cheaper than a Plasma gun, always hits, good wounding odds, but with much less range.

M.

 Infantryman wrote:

How about 6 points for 8", S4, AP-4, Auto Hit, Ignore Cover?

M.

That is crazy crazy strong. No save for Spacemarines or anything worse. Even a marine in cover (who has a 5+ save against plasma) gets nothing against this. Does it still do d6 hits? If so... why would you ever take anything else? Strongest gun in 40k. It averages 1 wound against a battle tank! Against MEQ it's 3 wounds and only 4 against GEQ. For terminators it absolutely brutalises them, killing on average 1 terminator (2 wounds!) for 6 points. Load up on these as much as possible.

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 1 Wounds
Probability of 2 or more wounds: 12%"

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 27%"

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 43%"

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 4 Save: 1+ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 2 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 11%"

I think that he is referring to the old system where AP4 means that if your armor had a save value of 4+ you didn't get a save but 3+ took a normal save.

In the new system it would be AP -3.

Also heavier flamers should have not just more S but also a longer range. So: flamer S4 AP -1 Range 8", Heavy flamer S5 AP -2 range 10" and, Flame cannon S 6 AP -2 range 12". The range increase is justified fluffwise due to the launching system of the gel.

 Fafnir wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

The cheapest flamer you can put on the field is 11 points with the cheapest Stormbolter you can put on the field is 15 points

What the hell?

Isn't the cheapest stormbolter a Sisters of Battle with Stormbolter for 11 points?

Drager wrote:

 Infantryman wrote:

How about 6 points for 8", S4, AP-4, Auto Hit, Ignore Cover?

M.

That is crazy crazy strong. No save for Spacemarines or anything worse. Even a marine in cover (who has a 5+ save against plasma) gets nothing against this. Does it still do d6 hits? If so... why would you ever take anything else? Strongest gun in 40k. It averages 1 wound against a battle tank! Against MEQ it's 3 wounds and only 4 against GEQ. For terminators it absolutely brutalises them, killing on average 1 terminator (2 wounds!) for 6 points. Load up on these as much as possible.

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 8 Save: 3+ Wounds: 12
Average Damage: 1 Wounds
Probability of 2 or more wounds: 12%"

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 4 Save: 3+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 3 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 27%"

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 3 Save: 5+ Wounds: 1
Average Damage: 4 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 43%"

"New Flamer vs Toughness: 4 Save: 1+ Wounds: 2
Average Damage: 2 Wounds
Probability of 3 or more wounds: 11%"

I jacked it up all kinds of good...I actually had it right the first time, then mucked it up before hitting Submit

BUT now we're back on track! I'll put my fixes below.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:I think that he is referring to the old system where AP4 means that if your armor had a save value of 4+ you didn't get a save but 3+ took a normal save.

In the new system it would be AP -3.

Also heavier flamers should have not just more S but also a longer range. So: flamer S4 AP -1 Range 8", Heavy flamer S5 AP -2 range 10" and, Flame cannon S 6 AP -2 range 12". The range increase is justified fluffwise due to the launching system of the gel.

You are absolutely correct - I had The Old Ways creep back into my head.

I mentioned earlier in this thread that 4+ saves *seem* to be about the best you get without going to a completely sealed suit. That informed my reasoning for not wanting 4+ to work against it. In retrospect that is a little harsh, so I think probably AP-2 is best. Someone in Flak Armor (and equiv) shouldn't get a save against a flamethrower - they're on fire.

So, to uncross myself, I'd have thought a flamer to be: 8" S4 AP-2, 1 Damage, Auto Hit 1d6 (or 2d3), Ignore Cover

I will agree that a Heavy Flamer should have further range, though I'm not super sold on it having higher strength or AP because it is still burning fuel, isn't it?

M.

 Infantryman wrote:


So, to uncross myself, I'd have thought a flamer to be: 8" S4 AP-2, 1 Damage, Auto Hit 1d6 (or 2d3), Ignore Cover
M.

That sitll has the same problem, but to a lesser extent. Now a marine in cover gets a 5+ same as against plasma, but with a bunch of autohits at a lower price point. As an elite infantry killer it's pretty cool and probably worth, say 12 points (if 1d6, more if 2d3), but as a horde killer it's not as good. Still great against terminators as well.

 Infantryman wrote:
I will agree that a Heavy Flamer should have further range, though I'm not super sold on it having higher strength or AP because it is still burning fuel, isn't it?.

My thought is the delivery system not only boosts the range but also the amount of goo that spews out of it. Alternately you could put a more volatile mixture in larger tanks by adding more chemicals (I'm not a scientist but it sounds like good pseudo science).

Drager wrote:
WHy would you only get 1 Flamer for 90 points? There are units in the game that can come with all flamers last I checked.

Earth127 wrote:Is it just me or does there sound something false about comparing one model shooting with 5?

The point was to compare the damage a flamer for 11 pts. can do, to 5 stormbolters which only cost 10 pts. and, in addition, have 14" more range. He complained that i didnt consider model pts. And he was right, 22 stormbolters need 22 models. Thats why i compared 5 veterans with 5 stormbolters for 90 points against 5 veterans with 1 flamer for 89 pts.

Earth127 wrote:
Also overwatch needs to compared (it's a flamers primary function in 8th) and in overwatch the one flamer guy does as much dmg on average as the enite storm bolter squad together.

Lets compare overwatch, the flamer scores 3,5 hits. 5 stormbolters score 3,3 hits. So 0,2 more hits on the flamer. Wow. A game changer

Flamers are fine, for the most part. Imo I think they should actually be 2d3 rather then 1d6 as there is a 33% chance you just paid for a short range bolter. Assuming standard marine flamer, which is the same profile as a bolter but at shorter range. So I'd you roll a 2 will be the same as a regular bolter. Or good for bit roll a 1 then it would have been better to take a bolter.

p5freak wrote:

The point was to compare the damage a flamer for 11 pts. can do, to 5 stormbolters which only cost 10 pts. and, in addition, have 14" more range. He complained that i didnt consider model pts. And he was right, 22 stormbolters need 22 models. Thats why i compared 5 veterans with 5 stormbolters for 90 points against 5 veterans with 1 flamer for 89 pts

That seems incredibly disingenuous. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare a unit of flamers to a unit of stormbolters? 5 Acolytes with a stormbolters vs 5 Acolytes with flamers say?

Drager wrote:

p5freak wrote:

The point was to compare the damage a flamer for 11 pts. can do, to 5 stormbolters which only cost 10 pts. and, in addition, have 14" more range. He complained that i didnt consider model pts. And he was right, 22 stormbolters need 22 models. Thats why i compared 5 veterans with 5 stormbolters for 90 points against 5 veterans with 1 flamer for 89 pts

That seems incredibly disingenuous. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare a unit of flamers to a unit of stormbolters? 5 Acolytes with a stormbolters vs 5 Acolytes with flamers say?

You could do that. But 5 flamers are 55 points. 5 stormbolters are 10 points. That not a fair point comparison. The 5 flamers barely do more damage.

20*0,67*0,5*0,33=2,211

17,5*0,5*0,33=2,8875

Not even 1 wound more. A normal flamer shouldnt be more than 3-4 pts. 11 is way to much.

And that makes the point much better than shenanigans. I agree that flashers are overcosted.

Drager wrote:

p5freak wrote:

The point was to compare the damage a flamer for 11 pts. can do, to 5 stormbolters which only cost 10 pts. and, in addition, have 14" more range. He complained that i didnt consider model pts. And he was right, 22 stormbolters need 22 models. Thats why i compared 5 veterans with 5 stormbolters for 90 points against 5 veterans with 1 flamer for 89 pts

That seems incredibly disingenuous. Wouldn't it make more sense to compare a unit of flamers to a unit of stormbolters? 5 Acolytes with a stormbolters vs 5 Acolytes with flamers say?

You need to incorporate cost into it. That's about half the math in the game.

Yes you do. That was part of my point.

Is there a unit that can take 5 storm bolters or 5 flamers in the same squad?

Earth127 wrote:
Is there a unit that can take 5 storm bolters or 5 flamers in the same squad?

Yep, inquisitorial Acolytes can.

Earth127 wrote:
Is there a unit that can take 5 storm bolters or 5 flamers in the same squad?

SoB Dominon squads can. 4 flamers+1 combi-flamer or 5 storm bolters