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Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




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Where is the modern day Teddy Roosevelt to take on these new robber barons and put the fear of God into them?

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where is the modern day Teddy Roosevelt to take on these new robber barons and put the fear of God into them?

Break up the companies with vertical integration (ie Comcast, Verizon) who are not only ISPs, but content providers as well.

You just know Amazon is going to get broken up sometime soon...

Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
Made in gb
Courageous Grand Master




-

 whembly wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where is the modern day Teddy Roosevelt to take on these new robber barons and put the fear of God into them?

Break up the companies with vertical integration (ie Comcast, Verizon) who are not only ISPs, but content providers as well.

You just know Amazon is going to get broken up sometime soon...


Is there anybody in the Congress or the Senate with the guts to take on Amazon or these big telecoms companies?

"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd 
   
Made in us
Battlefield Tourist




MN (Currently in WY)

 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:
Where is the modern day Teddy Roosevelt to take on these new robber barons and put the fear of God into them?

Break up the companies with vertical integration (ie Comcast, Verizon) who are not only ISPs, but content providers as well.

You just know Amazon is going to get broken up sometime soon...


Is there anybody in the Congress or the Senate with the guts to take on Amazon or these big telecoms companies?


Not enough of them to pass anything!

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Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

This is going to be the same thing that happened with DLC horsegak in video games: The process is so gradual that most people just accept it as the way things are...and when it gets to a point when it becomes completely unacceptable, there won't be the will to do anything about it. Because most people will just shrug and continue to pay the extra fees that have been slowly accumulating on services/features that were once included in the base price.

A good comparison is YouTube red. 5 years ago Android and apple apps that cached YouTube videos to be played later were becoming very popular. YouTube noticed. And so they slowly started pushing those apps to interfere with the service. Some videos couldn't be loaded. Getting an update cleared the cache. Shutting down the really consumer friendly ones and leaving the sketchy apps up. Basically cornering the market to nothing over the course of about a year. Then they were all gone. And after a time of this consumer want stewing, YouTube red is put out that offers this rather valuable service.. for a fee.

This is what will happen. 1-2 years of slow degeneration of services and quality, and then a new service that graciously and kindly offers everything they had rolled back.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in us
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MN (Currently in WY)

 Galas wrote:
This is going to be the same thing that happened with DLC horsegak in video games: The process is so gradual that most people just accept it as the way things are...and when it gets to a point when it becomes completely unacceptable, there won't be the will to do anything about it. Because most people will just shrug and continue to pay the extra fees that have been slowly accumulating on services/features that were once included in the base price.

A good comparison is YouTube red. 5 years ago Android and apple apps that cached YouTube videos to be played later were becoming very popular. YouTube noticed. And so they slowly started pushing those apps to interfere with the service. Some videos couldn't be loaded. Getting an update cleared the cache. Shutting down the really consumer friendly ones and leaving the sketchy apps up. Basically cornering the market to nothing over the course of about a year. Then they were all gone. And after a time of this consumer want stewing, YouTube red is put out that offers this rather valuable service.. for a fee.

This is what will happen. 1-2 years of slow degeneration of services and quality, and then a new service that graciously and kindly offers everything they had rolled back.


Spot on post!

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Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






The difference with gaming DLC is that is a requirement for game development to actually function. The price of a AAA game has gone down significantly since the 90s because $60 is worth less due to inflation, yet the development costs are tens times more. That money has to come from somewhere. Cable companies don't have anything analogous to that. So instead of an inevitable but unavoidable creep that undeniably has benefits, we will see a creep into charging more and more just for customers to get back to what they originally had.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 18:04:43


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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Here's a rational pro-Neutrality and anti-Title II article:

Spoiler'ed for being wall-o-text! Sauce.
Spoiler:
Weirdly, this article about the American broadband market must start in Portugal.

Web has been disappointing lately, I'll admit, but look what it looks like without Net Neutrality (in Portugal) https://t.co/0QYiMDcPnP

— Tim Wu (@superwuster) October 31, 2017

Last week Federal Communications Commission (FCC) Chairman Ajit Pai circulated a]draft order that would undo the 2015 reclassification of Internet Service Providers (ISPs) from what are known as “Title I information services” to “Title II telecommunication providers”; Title II of the Telecommunications Act, originally developed to regulate the AT&T monopoly, gives the FCC broad ability to regulate “common carriers” as utilities. Title I, on the other hand, hands off regulatory oversight to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC).

The net effect of this reclassification would be the elimination of FCC rules restricting the ability of ISPs to block or throttle sites or apps or offer paid prioritization of any Internet content. That is certainly a worthy goal! Who could possibly be in favor of ISPs picking-and-choosing what sites you can visit based on what you are willing to pay? Do we really want to be like Portugal?

There’s just one problem with the tweet I embedded above: Portugal uses Euros, and the language is Portuguese; the tweet above has dollars and English. The image is completely made-up.

Congressman Ro Khanna, who represents Silicon Valley, at least went to the trouble of getting an actual page from a Portuguese carrier:

In Portugal, with no net neutrality, internet providers are starting to split the net into packages. pic.twitter.com/TlLYGezmv6

— Ro Khanna (@RoKhanna) October 27, 2017


There are the Euros and Portuguese you would expect, but in this case perhaps it was the language difference that introduced its own issues: Congressman Khanna seems to have missed the text at the top (under ‘+ Smart Net’) that clearly stated that the packages were for an additional 10GB/month of data; in addition to what, you may ask? Simply scroll down the page:


So to recount: one Portugal story is made up, and the other declared that a 10GB family plan with an extra 10GB for a collection of apps of your choosing for €25/month ($30/month) is a future to be feared; given that AT&T charges $65 for a single “Unlimited” plan that downscales video, bans tethering, and slows speeds after 22GB, one wonders if most Americans share that fear.

That, though, is the magic of the term “net neutrality”, the name — coined by the same Tim Wu whose tweet I embedded above — for those FCC rules that justified the original 2015 reclassification of ISPs to utility-like common carriers. Of course ISPs should be neutral — again, who could be against such a thing? What is missing in the ongoing debate, though, is the recognition that, ever since the demise of AOL, they have been. The FCC’s 2015 approach to net neutrality is solving problems as fake as the image in Wu’s tweet; unfortunately the costs are just as real as those in Congressman Khanna’s tweet, but massively more expensive.

THE COST OF REGULATION
Allow me to state this point plainly: I am absolutely in favor of net neutrality. Indeed, as I explained in 2014’s Netflix and Net Neutrality, I am willing to make trade-offs (specifically data caps) to achieve it. The question at hand, though, is what is the best way to achieve net neutrality? To believe that Chairman Pai is right is not to be against net neutrality; rather, it is to believe that the FCC’s 2015 approach was mistaken.

Any regulatory decision — indeed, any decision period — is about tradeoffs. To choose one course of action is to gain certain benefits and incur certain costs, and it is to forgo the benefits (and costs!) of alternative courses of action. What makes evaluating regulations so difficult is that the benefits are usually readily apparent — the bad behavior or outcome is, hopefully, eliminated — but the costs are much more difficult to quantify. Short-term implementation costs may be relatively straightforward, but future innovations and market entries that don’t happen by virtue of the regulation being in place are far more difficult to calculate. Equally difficult to measure is the inevitable rent-seeking that accompanies regulation, as incumbents find it easier to lobby regulators to foreclose competition instead of winning customers in an open market.

A classic example of this phenomenon is restaurants: who could possibly be against food safety? Then you read about how San Francisco requires 14 permits that take 9 months to issue (plus a separate alcohol permit) and you wonder why anyone opens a restaurant at all (compounded by the fact that already-permitted restaurants have a vested interest in making the process more onerous over time). Multiply that burden by all of the restaurants that never get created and the cost is very large indeed.

This argument certainly applies to net neutrality in a far more profound way: the Internet has been the single most important driver of not just economic growth but overall consumer welfare for the last two decades. Given that all of that dynamism has been achieved with minimal regulatory oversight, the default position of anyone concerned about future growth should be maintaining a light touch. After all, regulation always has a cost far greater than what we can see at the moment it is enacted, and given the importance of the Internet, those costs are massively more consequential than restaurants or just about anything else.

To put it another way, given the stakes, the benefit from regulation must be massive, which is why the “net neutrality” framing is so powerful: I’ll say it again — who can be against net neutrality? Telling stories about speech being restricted or new companies being unable to pay to access customers tap into both the Internet’s clear impact and the foregone opportunity cost I just described — businesses that are never built.

That, though, is exactly the problem: opportunity costs are a reason to not regulate; clear evidence of harm are the reasons to do so despite the costs. What is so backwards about this entire debate is that those in favor of regulation are adopting the arguments of anti-regulators — postulating about future harms and foregone opportunities — while pursuing a regulatory approach that is only justified in the face of actual harm.

The fact of the matter is there is no evidence that harm exists in the sort of systematic way that justifies heavily regulating ISPs; the evidence that does exist suggests that current regulatory structures handle bad actors perfectly well. The only future to fear is the one we never discover because we gave up on the approach that has already brought us so far.

ISPS ACTING BADLY
The most famous example of an ISP acting badly was a company called Madison River Communication which, in 2005, blocked ports used for Voice over Internet Protocol (VoIP) services, presumably to prop up their own alternative; it remains the canonical violation of net neutrality. It was also a short-lived one: Vonage quickly complained to the FCC, which quickly obtained a consent decree that included a nominal fine and guarantee from Madison River Communications that they would not block such services again. They did not, and no other ISP has tried to do the same;the reasoning is straightforward: foreclosing a service that competes with an ISP’s own service is a clear antitrust violation. In other words, there are already regulations in place to deal with this behavior, and the limited evidence we have suggests it works.

Another popularly cited case is Comcast’s attempted throttling of BitTorrent in 2007. While the protocol has legitimate uses, by far the most popular application was piracy; notably, pirate networks typically required users to upload as much content as they downloaded, imposing significant burdens on Comcast’s network. The FCC ordered Comcast to stop in 2008, but a federal court ruled that the FCC lacked the statutory authority given that ISPs were Title I providers (not Title II).

What is important to note, though, is that even before the Court ruled, Comcast had already removed its restrictions, not for fear of regulatory oversight, but by making technical changes to its network to better handle BitTorrent traffic, lending credence to Comcast’s arguments that the initial restrictions were about network management, not content discrimination (and, to be clear, Comcast erred in not being transparent). It is worth noting, by the way, that BitTorrent users were a sort of free-loaders, using massively more bandwidth than the vast majority of Comcast’s customers; this is a case where what is best for end users is much murkier than net neutrality advocates would have you think. What is pertinent, though, is that it happened only once.

Perhaps the most misrepresented episode, though, is MetroPCS. Net neutrality advocates claim that the discount carrier (since bought by T-Mobile) “blocked all video sites except for YouTube”; the reality is that in 2011 MetroPCS unveiled a new pricing plan: $40 for unlimited webpages plus YouTube, $50 for several other additional services, and $60 for unrestricted data. In other words, it wasn’t a net neutrality issue at all: it was an early prototype of what is known as “zero-rating.”

T-MOBILE, ZERO-RATING, AND COMPETITION
Zero-rating means that a particular service does not count against a data cap; widely used all over the world, the practice was popularized in the United States by T-Mobile.

Back in 2011 T-Mobile was a distant fourth-place in the U.S. carrier market, with limited spectrum and a shrinking customer base. That year the company tried to sell itself to AT&T, the second-largest carrier, but that deal was (rightly) blocked by the U.S. Department of Justice for competition reasons. That’s when something amazing happened: T-Mobile decided to actually compete.

The company launched its “Un-carrier” campaign, featuring contract-fee pricing with phone financing, data carryover, and, pertinent to this article, zero-rating on a host of music and video services (the video was downsampled). Customers loved it, leading T-Mobile to grow rapidly, soon overtaking Sprint to become the third-largest carrier in the United States. More importantly, T-Mobile forced the other national carriers to respond: now everyone has phone financing instead of lock-in subsidies, monthly plan prices are significantly lower for everyone, and even AT&T and Verizon, the two largest carriers by far, have returned to unlimited data plans.
Again, zero-rating is not explicitly a net-neutrality issue: T-Mobile treats all data the same, some data just doesn’t cost money. Net neutrality advocates, though, have railed against zero-rating as violating the “spirit” of net neutrality, and shortly after that 2015 reclassification, the FCC launched an investigation into the practice. I’m sympathetic to the argument; I wrote in 2015:

The problem, though, is that regulations, by virtue of being words on a page, always contains loopholes that violate the “spirit” of the rules and more often than not end up favoring the incumbents, and that is precisely what is happening in the broadband war. Fast lanes would likely have only had an effect on the margins, and consumers would have been only affected indirectly; zero-rate data, though, appeals to consumer pocket books directly in a way that massively benefits whatever Internet companies are signed up to play ball with the ISP…

The FCC has signaled a hesitation to do anything about zero rate plans given the fact they benefit the consumer, at least in the short term. After all, who doesn’t like free? The problem, though, is the effect on competition — particularly the Netflix and Spotify competitors who haven’t yet been borne.
What has happened to the U.S. mobile industry has certainly made me reconsider: if competition and the positive outcomes it has for customers is the goal, then it is difficult to view T-Mobile’s approach as anything but a positive.


THE STARTUPS OF THE FUTURE
Still, what of those companies that can’t afford to pay for zero rating — the future startups for which net neutrality advocates are willing to risk the costs of heavy-handed regulations? In fact, as I noted in that excerpt, zero rating is arguably a bigger threat to would-be startups than fast lanes, yet T-Mobile-style zero rating isn’t even covered by those regulations! This is part of the problem of regulating future harm: sometimes that harm isn’t what you expect, and you have regulated and borne the associated costs in vain.

That aside, the idea that ISPs would be able to successfully block sites and apps that don’t pay for delivery is flawed:

First, as noted above, there is no evidence of this happening on a wide-scale.
Second, should an ISP try, an increasing number of customers do have alternatives (not enough — more on this in a moment).
Third, if the furor over net neutrality has demonstrated anything, it is that the media is ready-and-willing to raise a ruckus if ISPs even attempt to do something untoward; relatedly, a common response to the observation that ISPs have not acted badly to-date because they are fearful of regulation is not an argument for regulation — it is an acknowledgment that ISPs can and will self-regulate.
Most importantly, the idea makes zero economic sense. Remember that ISPs bear massive fixed costs, which means they are motivated to maximize the number of end users. That means not cutting off sites and apps those customers want. Moreover, even in the worst case scenario where ISPs did decide to charge Google and Netflix and whatnot, they could price discriminate and charge the Netflix competitor nothing at all! That would be a far superior financial outcome to a “take-it-or-leave-it” price that would foreclose all future startups (and again, there is zero evidence that this scenario has happened or will happen at all).

What is worth noting, though, is that the current regulations do foreclose startups that rely on low latency levels that might be offered by ISPs at a premium. The most commonly cited example is remote medical care, but the nature of future innovation is that we don’t know what sort of services might be created with something like paid prioritization.

I’d also note that companies like Google and Netflix already have massive advantages along these lines: Netflix places its content on servers within ISPs, and Google has an entire worldwide private network to ensure its results are milliseconds faster than they might be otherwise. The startups that challenge them will do so by being different, which means keeping open the number of possible ways to differentiate is a good thing.

COMPETITION AND NEUTRALITY
To recap, given that:

Regulation incurs significants costs, both in terms of foregone opportunities and regulatory capture
There is no evidence of systemic abuse by ISPs governed under Title I, which means there are no immediate benefits to regulation, only theoretical ones
There is evidence that pre-existing regulation and antitrust law, along with media pressure, are effective at policing bad behavior
I believe that Ajit Pai is right to return regulation to the same light touch under which the Internet developed and broadband grew for two decades. I am amenable to Congress passing a law specifically banning ISPs from blocking content, but believe that for everything else, including paid prioritization, we are better off taking a “wait-and-see” approach; after all, we are just as likely to “see” new products and services as we are to see startup foreclosure. And, to be sure, this is an issue than can — and should, if the evidence changes — be visited again.

What is worth far more attention is the state of competition in broadband generally: ISPs have lobbied for limits on public broadband in 25 states, and many local governments make it prohibitively expensive for new ISPs to challenge incumbents (and Title II requirements don’t help either). Increasing competition would not only have the same positive outcomes for customers that T-Mobile demonstrated, but would solve the (mostly theoretical) net neutrality issue at the same time: the greatest check on an ISP is the likelihood of an unsatisfied customer leaving.

And, I’d add, if neutrality and foreclosed competition are the issue net neutrality proponents say they are, then Google and Facebook are even bigger concerns than ISPs: both are super-aggregators with unprecedented power and the deepest moats ever seen in technology, and an increasing willingness to not be neutral.

It’s worth stating one last time: I believe deeply in neutrality and in fostering innovation. I think neutrality is the only way the Internet can function at scale, and innovation is how we will survive the Internet-driven transformation that is only just beginning. It is that belief, though, that compels me to push back against this specific regulation, no matter how much I agree with its associated catchphrase.

NOTE: I have written a follow-up to this piece that explains why I’m not making a “Market Will Fix It” argument, the trade-offs in terms of bandwidth investment, and why antitrust enforcement is so critical. You can read it here.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 18:14:07


Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!


 
   
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Norristown, PA

Next thing ya know we'll have to buy loot boxes to unlock different cable channels and websites. How many loot boxes will it take to finally get Amazon Prime unlocked for a week?

 
   
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Oh dear god that was a cringe-worthy article.
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Bran Dawri wrote:
Oh dear god that was a cringe-worthy article.

What, specifically, are you cringing over?

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 whembly wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:
Oh dear god that was a cringe-worthy article.

What, specifically, are you cringing over?


Well, first the whole Portugal comparison is a nonsensical red herring. Portugal isn't a good analog to the US, the situations aren't very similar at all. Secondly, the article take the time to point out that restaurant regulation in San Francisco is arduous and inhibits new restaurants from starting up which limits competition in the market but then completely ignores that fact that that same level of regulation is already in place for ISPs and is a key obstacle to breaking up the monopolistic ISPs in the US. Net Neutrality regulations, whether in place or removed, do nothing to help break up the monopolies. For example, if I want internet service in my home at decent speeds I can get it through Spectrum (who bought out TIme Warner). That is literally my only option. Regardless of whether or not Spectrum is governed by NN regulations I can either pay them for decent internet service or go without there is no competition in my market. As long as Spectrum has a monopoly in the market consumers will suffer and without NN regulations Spectrum becomes more powerful because in addition to their current monopoly on the service they can now dictate the content available to me.

The article argues that ISPs should be lightly regulated while ignoring the fact that there's only like half a dozen ISPs for the entire country. Light regulation is not the answer to monopolies. Monopolies need to be broken up via regulation not allowed to continue. Little competition requires more regulation, more competition allows for less regulation. The argument that NN regulation isn't needed because ISPs haven't abused their current monopoly in the feared nightmare scenario fashion ignore the fact that customers are already suffering at the hands of ISPs due to their current monopoly on service. Again, this just shows how stupid it was for the article to use the restaurant analogy, over regulation of restaurant permitting prevents more restaurants from opening but NN regulations have no bearing on preventing more ISPs from starting up. The regulations on ISPs are a completely different matter than the NN regulations.

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

Prestor Jon wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:
Oh dear god that was a cringe-worthy article.

What, specifically, are you cringing over?


Well, first the whole Portugal comparison is a nonsensical red herring. Portugal isn't a good analog to the US, the situations aren't very similar at all.

The Portugal comparison is nonsensical because it's a lie tailored to generate hysteria.

Secondly, the article take the time to point out that restaurant regulation in San Francisco is arduous and inhibits new restaurants from starting up which limits competition in the market but then completely ignores that fact that that same level of regulation is already in place for ISPs and is a key obstacle to breaking up the monopolistic ISPs in the US. Net Neutrality regulations, whether in place or removed, do nothing to help break up the monopolies. For example, if I want internet service in my home at decent speeds I can get it through Spectrum (who bought out TIme Warner). That is literally my only option. Regardless of whether or not Spectrum is governed by NN regulations I can either pay them for decent internet service or go without there is no competition in my market. As long as Spectrum has a monopoly in the market consumers will suffer and without NN regulations Spectrum becomes more powerful because in addition to their current monopoly on the service they can now dictate the content available to me.

The point was, NN as envisioned by previous ruling adds regulatory burdens that the big guys can shoulder, which creates barriers for startups.

The article argues that ISPs should be lightly regulated while ignoring the fact that there's only like half a dozen ISPs for the entire country. Light regulation is not the answer to monopolies. Monopolies need to be broken up via regulation not allowed to continue. Little competition requires more regulation, more competition allows for less regulation. The argument that NN regulation isn't needed because ISPs haven't abused their current monopoly in the feared nightmare scenario fashion ignore the fact that customers are already suffering at the hands of ISPs due to their current monopoly on service. Again, this just shows how stupid it was for the article to use the restaurant analogy, over regulation of restaurant permitting prevents more restaurants from opening but NN regulations have no bearing on preventing more ISPs from starting up. The regulations on ISPs are a completely different matter than the NN regulations.

They're natural monopolies by necessity as there's only so much pole space to laydown cable/fiber. The fact that they ARE natural monopolies, itself, doesn't mean the consumers were harmed. If that's the position you take, then there's a whole bunch of monopoly-busting that needs to happen.

Now, there are arguments for things like forcing ISPs to allow competitors over the "Last Mile" lines to the consumers... but, I'm not sure we're there yet.

Anyhow... "Light touch" regulation got us here *now*. More regulation over a fear of potential harm need to be judiciously applied. Hell, a former Democratic FTC chairman wrote an op-ed on the post to Chillax Ya'll, We Got This.

Now, if you take the stance that these ISPs ought to be regulated like common carriers/utilities ala, water, electricity and gas... then yes this new ruling is a step back. But, if you're worried that you're going to pay more now, or suffer performance issues while streaming Netflix and whatnot... I wouldn't. There are major sensitivities with these ISPs about maintaining their subscribers... right now, the cord-cutting consumers (people dropping cable TV, but keeping cable internet) is shifting the dynamics in ways we're not sure what's going to happen.

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Here's a tl;dr for people: 'republicans are right because reasons, reality is not worth mentioning'.

Really there's nothing to see beyond more of the same crap we've been seeing this year, move along and don't make the same mistake I did in wasting your time to read it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 22:24:48


Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

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Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Here's a tl;dr for people: 'republicans are right because reasons, reality is not worth mentioning'.

Really there's nothing to see beyond more of the same crap we've been seeing this year, move along and don't make the same mistake I did in wasting your time to read it.

...and you didn't read it.

"Republican" or "Democrat" isn't found in that article.

EDIT: which link are you talking about?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 22:33:36


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 whembly wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Here's a tl;dr for people: 'republicans are right because reasons, reality is not worth mentioning'.

Really there's nothing to see beyond more of the same crap we've been seeing this year, move along and don't make the same mistake I did in wasting your time to read it.

...and you didn't read it.

"Republican" or "Democrat" isn't found in that article.
The republican administration is behind net neutrality reform, the only reason to suggest anything otherwise is because you've lost the argument. So thanks for the unintentional concession, I guess.

Road to Renown! It's like classic Path to Glory, but repaired, remastered, expanded! https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/778170.page

I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Ho-hum)





Curb stomping in the Eye of Terror!

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
 whembly wrote:
 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Here's a tl;dr for people: 'republicans are right because reasons, reality is not worth mentioning'.

Really there's nothing to see beyond more of the same crap we've been seeing this year, move along and don't make the same mistake I did in wasting your time to read it.

...and you didn't read it.

"Republican" or "Democrat" isn't found in that article.
The republican administration is behind net neutrality reform, the only reason to suggest anything otherwise is because you've lost the argument. So thanks for the unintentional concession, I guess.

:sigh:
I thought you were talking about the article I posted before that.

Maybe next time be more clear? And less dismissive would be swell too...






This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 22:42:43


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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Here's a tl;dr for people: 'republicans are right because reasons, reality is not worth mentioning'.

This is a great post to curry favor amongst those who feel the same way you do, but it doesn't really contain any information for anyone else. What reality are you talking about? Which reasons for Republicans being right are you referring to, and who even offered them in the first place?

I'm so tired of binary thinking and hyperbole. Let's be honest; very few people know what they're talking about on any given subject, let alone issues that are as technical as this one. All people do these days is get hyped into a frothing lunacy by their social media hive minds and parrot whatever memes they see in their news feeds or on late night TV. No thought, no introspection, no critical inquiry, just talking points all the way around.

Everyone needs to get a grip. The world isn't ending because politicians from either party passed/repealed some kind of legislation or regulation. The right acted pretty much the same way during Obama that the left is acting now; everything was a conspiracy and a dire threat to democracy and apple pie itself. Don't be a chump, think for yourself.

This regulation was two years old. It's not like the internet came into immaculate existence in 2015 by some kind of miracle wrought by a Democrat's pen, and now is in danger of fading back into the realm of fairies and unicorns, beyond the grasp of mortals. This type of rule doesn't even exist in some countries, including EU members, and in those where it does exist it has only been introduced very recently.

Would it have been preferable to keep a rule in place that specifically forbids ISPs from turning the internet into a cable TV package? Yes, I think so. Does it follow logic that because that rule is now gone, the ISPs are going to twirl their mustaches and tie the internet to a railroad track? No, it doesn't. Most of the scenarios that people are imagining are not only unlikely, they betray an ignorance about how the internet even functions. If you want to be pissed about getting the shaft as a US internet consumer, you kind of missed the boat because it was happening with or without this rule. The "last mile" from the ISPs to your house is rotting, outdated infrastructure that may or may not have been installed when Alexander Graham Bell was still alive. Your local governments have regulations and processes in place that make it infeasible for new ISPs to form, and the incumbent ISPs love them for it. Content providers and ISPs keep merging to the point where a vast majority of what you see on the internet is under the control of a handful of major corporations anyway. The market has zero competition, and consumers have zero power to do anything about it. There are fundamental problems that this rule never addressed, which are frankly much more important and impacting. We as consumers and citizens should have raised our voices long ago, but we didn't. We didn't, because it's more gratifying and less exhausting to simply throw a couple of posts into the void of narcissism and rage that is the internet, than it is to actually do anything that matters. If that's all people are going to use the internet for anyway, then this rule isn't going to affect them one iota.

 
   
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Calling out falsehood as such is overreacting and people who do so need to get a grip. Uh huh.

Projecting outrage onto me isn't accurate or a compelling argument, it's great for people who already agree with your position, but for many of us just reinforces why your position isn't worth engaging with.

The alternative is that the chronic behaviors of wealthy entities have changed from how they've been acting for all of recorded history.

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 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Calling out falsehood as such is overreacting and people who do so need to get a grip. Uh huh.

Projecting outrage onto me isn't accurate or a compelling argument, it's great for people who already agree with your position, but for many of us just reinforces why your position isn't worth engaging with.

The alternative is that the chronic behaviors of wealthy entities have changed from how they've been acting for all of recorded history.


Calling out falsehoods implies that you can articulate the truth. Many posts here can barely manage, "party x is bad, disagreeing with me is admitting that you're wrong." If that's the level of engagement you're going to pick up and take home because I don't agree with everything you say, then I guess I'm none the poorer.

What does your last sentence even mean? That you can, with 100% certainty, predict the behaviors of entities that are so large and complex as to be beyond your comprehension, based on their relative level of wealth?

 
   
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If someone insists that the can't rain next week because it isn't raining today, one does not engage them in the finer points if meteorology, one simply points out the obvious and moves on.

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So because an attempt to at least somewhat curtail the ISP monopoly powers didn't go nearly far enough is a reason to instead stop trying to curtail them at all rather than, y'know, the opposite?
   
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If I were a meteorologist, I would predict that where ever certain posters go, platitudes and faulty rhetoric will fall from the heavens in sheets.

I'm not insisting that it can't rain next week because it isn't raining today, you're insisting that it must rain next week because it rained on the Spanish plains on the day Al Capone was arraigned.

This kind of attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. It is so opposed to discourse using anything other than empty tribal signaling that I have to assume some kind of traumatic event involving a debate team or logic professor forced you to compartmentalize the part of your mind which responds to reason.

"This guy isn't identifying himself as part of my team so I better not talk to him," is a good rule for the safety of children, soldiers and thieves, but not one you see employed by those with enough confidence in their own principles and intellect to risk being contaminated with outside information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bran Dawri wrote:
So because an attempt to at least somewhat curtail the ISP monopoly powers didn't go nearly far enough is a reason to instead stop trying to curtail them at all rather than, y'know, the opposite?


No. Where do you guys pull these false equivalencies from? How is it that you can read something and end up finding words that aren't there?

What I said: The sky isn't falling just now, because this doesn't really change much and the major issues are persistent regardless.

What you added: I don't think we should try to curtail the monopolization of ISPs.

Neat trick. Let me try:
So net neutrality made the internet perfect and solved all issues with ISP market consolidation, and without it you're going to be fitted with a collar that explodes if you sign on to the internet without paying for Battlefront II DLC?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/16 00:59:02


 
   
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 Luciferian wrote:
If I were a meteorologist, I would predict that where ever certain posters go, platitudes and faulty rhetoric will fall from the heavens in sheets.

I'm not insisting that it can't rain next week because it isn't raining today, you're insisting that it must rain next week because it rained on the Spanish plains on the day Al Capone was arraigned.

This kind of attitude is exactly what I'm talking about. It is so opposed to discourse using anything other than empty tribal signaling that I have to assume some kind of traumatic event involving a debate team or logic professor forced you to compartmentalize the part of your mind which responds to reason.

"This guy isn't identifying himself as part of my team so I better not talk to him," is a good rule for the safety of children, soldiers and thieves, but not one you see employed by those with enough confidence in their own principles and intellect to risk being contaminated with outside information.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bran Dawri wrote:
So because an attempt to at least somewhat curtail the ISP monopoly powers didn't go nearly far enough is a reason to instead stop trying to curtail them at all rather than, y'know, the opposite?


No. Where do you guys pull these false equivalencies from? How is it that you can read something and end up finding words that aren't there?

What I said: The sky isn't falling just now, because this doesn't really change much and the major issues are persistent regardless.

What you added: I don't think we should try to curtail the monopolization of ISPs.

Neat trick. Let me try:
So net neutrality made the internet perfect and solved all issues with ISP market consolidation, and without it you're going to be fitted with a collar that explodes if you sign on to the internet without paying for Battlefront II DLC?
You're literally writing the evidence for me. This is riddled with insults, straw men, and false equivalencies, not to mention the hypocrisy. It isn't about talking or not talking with a certain side, its that I don't find it worthwhile to engage individuals like you. When the basis of potential discussion is an irrational viewpoint I don't find it's worth the effort because, in my experience, the supporters of such a position end up acting exactly like this.

Net neutrality is a good thing. The repeal is a bad thing for everyone save the companies that lobbied millions for it. There isn't a debate, just a minority group which denies the broad consensus.

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I chose an avatar I feel best represents the quality of my post history.

I try to view Warhammer as more of a toolbox with examples than fully complete games. 
   
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 NinthMusketeer wrote:

...straw men, and false equivalencies, not to mention the hypocrisy.


If someone insists that the can't rain next week because it isn't raining today, one does not engage them in the finer points if meteorology, one simply points out the obvious and moves on.


 NinthMusketeer wrote:

It isn't about talking or not talking with a certain side...

Here's a tl;dr for people: 'republicans are right because reasons, reality is not worth mentioning'.

Really there's nothing to see beyond more of the same crap we've been seeing this year, move along and don't make the same mistake I did in wasting your time to read it.

The republican administration is behind net neutrality reform, the only reason to suggest anything otherwise is because you've lost the argument. So thanks for the unintentional concession, I guess.


There isn't a debate, just a minority group which denies the broad consensus.

First of all, I never said the repeal wasn't a bad thing. I said that it was, just not to the degree that people are freaking out about it. I also expressed skepticism that anyone who actually cares enough about the issue to be informed about it is reacting just now, when there are much more pervasive issues surrounding the US ISP market that have been going on all around them for literally ten times as long as the net neutrality rule even existed.

Secondly, there's always a debate. Whether or not you want to participate in it is up to you, but "you're wrong I win" isn't really a cogent argument for anything. Literally all I'm doing is trying to introduce some actual nuance and pragmatism beyond "0=bad 1=good". It may surprise you that an issue which affects an entire nation's access to an extremely complex and multifaceted technology and the markets that surround it is somewhat more complicated than that. It may also surprise you that if you actually do care about it and want to seek solutions to its problems, a deeper understanding will be of benefit. Or, you could just signal which tribe you hail from and pat yourself on the back.



 
   
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I have plenty of nuance to my position. Your whopping side of pretencious above is simply continuing to demonstrate why you aren't worth the effort of explaining it.

Edit: to clarify, none of what you've presented as my opinion actually is.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 02:57:53


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North Carolina

 whembly wrote:
Prestor Jon wrote:
 whembly wrote:
Bran Dawri wrote:
Oh dear god that was a cringe-worthy article.

What, specifically, are you cringing over?


Well, first the whole Portugal comparison is a nonsensical red herring. Portugal isn't a good analog to the US, the situations aren't very similar at all.

The Portugal comparison is nonsensical because it's a lie tailored to generate hysteria.

Secondly, the article take the time to point out that restaurant regulation in San Francisco is arduous and inhibits new restaurants from starting up which limits competition in the market but then completely ignores that fact that that same level of regulation is already in place for ISPs and is a key obstacle to breaking up the monopolistic ISPs in the US. Net Neutrality regulations, whether in place or removed, do nothing to help break up the monopolies. For example, if I want internet service in my home at decent speeds I can get it through Spectrum (who bought out TIme Warner). That is literally my only option. Regardless of whether or not Spectrum is governed by NN regulations I can either pay them for decent internet service or go without there is no competition in my market. As long as Spectrum has a monopoly in the market consumers will suffer and without NN regulations Spectrum becomes more powerful because in addition to their current monopoly on the service they can now dictate the content available to me.

The point was, NN as envisioned by previous ruling adds regulatory burdens that the big guys can shoulder, which creates barriers for startups.

The article argues that ISPs should be lightly regulated while ignoring the fact that there's only like half a dozen ISPs for the entire country. Light regulation is not the answer to monopolies. Monopolies need to be broken up via regulation not allowed to continue. Little competition requires more regulation, more competition allows for less regulation. The argument that NN regulation isn't needed because ISPs haven't abused their current monopoly in the feared nightmare scenario fashion ignore the fact that customers are already suffering at the hands of ISPs due to their current monopoly on service. Again, this just shows how stupid it was for the article to use the restaurant analogy, over regulation of restaurant permitting prevents more restaurants from opening but NN regulations have no bearing on preventing more ISPs from starting up. The regulations on ISPs are a completely different matter than the NN regulations.

They're natural monopolies by necessity as there's only so much pole space to laydown cable/fiber. The fact that they ARE natural monopolies, itself, doesn't mean the consumers were harmed. If that's the position you take, then there's a whole bunch of monopoly-busting that needs to happen.

Now, there are arguments for things like forcing ISPs to allow competitors over the "Last Mile" lines to the consumers... but, I'm not sure we're there yet.

Anyhow... "Light touch" regulation got us here *now*. More regulation over a fear of potential harm need to be judiciously applied. Hell, a former Democratic FTC chairman wrote an op-ed on the post to Chillax Ya'll, We Got This.

Now, if you take the stance that these ISPs ought to be regulated like common carriers/utilities ala, water, electricity and gas... then yes this new ruling is a step back. But, if you're worried that you're going to pay more now, or suffer performance issues while streaming Netflix and whatnot... I wouldn't. There are major sensitivities with these ISPs about maintaining their subscribers... right now, the cord-cutting consumers (people dropping cable TV, but keeping cable internet) is shifting the dynamics in ways we're not sure what's going to happen.


No. All you did whembly was repeat the same illogical arguments put forth in that article. The Net Neutrality regulations had zero impact on preventing ISP start ups from being created. While excessive regulation can stifle free markets that wasn’t happening to ISPs because there is no competitive free market with ISPs in the US. You said it yourself in contradictory fashion within the same post, ISPs are already a monopoly due to the local telecom regulations and the difficulty in actually creating new infrastructure and laying new cable through which new ISPs could provide service. There’s a reason google fiber only exists in a handful of cities, laying new cable is insanely difficult due to regulatory obstacles that do far more harm than good.

ISPs are demonstrably bad actors and have monopolies on service. NN did nothing to break up those monopolies but it had limited success in ensuring that the ISPs didn’t treat their internet service as poorly as their cable tv service. The same corporations that have driven tens of millions of cable tv subscribers away with terrible customer service, constant price hikes, deceptive marketing and bundling popular content with undesired content to squeeze more money out of subscribers are now free to bring that same business model to their internet service.

Why do you think corporations like Comcast aren’t going to subject their internet subscribers who want Netflix to the same treatment they subjected their cable subscribers who wanted ESPN or the NFL Network? It’s the same company working to monetize the same kind of service monopoly by abusing the same subscriber base. Why would this time be different? Because reasons?

Monopolies harm consumers, always. Free markets have competition and competition benefits consumers. You don’t really believe that allowing a handful of corporations to monopolize an incredibly popular and increasingly necessary service doesn’t hurt the consumer do you?

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
 
   
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USA

In a lot of ways having a horde of ISP providers isn’t beneficial. It’s not really a market where fierce competition will happen in a place as big as the US and with a lot of distance to cover. If the cable/ISP providers want a non competitive market they can have it on the CONDITION that they have to live with heavy regulation to prevent them from abusing that market advantage (almost like a common carrier or something...). NN was a great benefit in that regard because it disallowed a lot of exploitative pricing models. For whatever baffling reason we’ve opted to let them have that market advantage and free reign to abuse it. Good job America.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/16 04:35:29


   
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Even just two options would really help the situation.

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USA

The issue is that functionally there's little meaningful difference technologically between internet and cable services. Everyone basically offers the same thing. The only thing to do is either steer clear of each other or get into a price war with limited means of offsetting costs. Two is probably fine. Three even. What I mean is that this isn't a market where we're going to have a bunch of options, and we don't necessarily want it that way cause who really needs a half dozen different brands running around that all really just do the same thing? The closest similarities really are with utility companies who are under stricter regulations than most for the very reason that they exist in a market sector with limited room for competition and far too much potential for abuse.

   
 
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