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I think the point was more to the, would the healthier way forward have been the "big stuff costs way more", fewer "I painted em blue, so they're better than those ones" rules, etc, been a better way to go than what we're seeing in the now-released codexes?

Or rather, I wish the codexes had taken what the Indexes did, and moved forward in that direction. Instead, much of it felt like an 'undo' button to much of what I liked about Indexes.

They weren't perfect. And some things needed fixing. (But - side note - were Serpents actually OP in the Index? I didn't think so, and it's really hard to tell with all the CWE hate)

I can see the point of many-armies-in-one-book. I can also see one-army-one-book's point. But that wasn't my complaint.

The point of my "story time" paragraph wasn't to complain about a bad tourney, I had a very good time in fact. It was to point out that with 12 rule sources (and more each month) not all books are available all the time. It would be nice, in my opinion to be able to play this boardgame with a mere half dozen rulebooks.

 MattKing wrote:
Ah yes, the good ol tfg standard to fixing the rules problems. Blame people for being ignorant of the rules and illegally download everything. Good show.

I'm not trying to belittle you. I was in that situation before and I got tired of shenanigans from rules I can't afford to purchase and verify on my own. I did, however, buy all 9 indexes and brought them everywhere I went until recently. I could justify spending the money on that. However, the first 8th Codex I plan on buying is Daemons in January. Overall, I don't think nearly enough people call Bull on their opponents in this game. I've seen people get away with all sorts of...

 Marmatag wrote:
garbage.

There was a Nid guy at our shop that consistently brought 2200 to 2500 worth of Nids every game. When it finally came time to play me in the league after he was deployed we did some quick math and he had to pull his extra 100 genestealers.

 MattKing wrote:
The point of my "story time" paragraph wasn't to complain about a bad tourney, I had a very good time in fact. It was to point out that with 12 rule sources (and more each month) not all books are available all the time. It would be nice, in my opinion to be able to play this boardgame with a mere half dozen rulebooks.

You only really need your own rules, though the books are a bit expensive. You could scan and carry the 8 pages of rules from the core book, a laminated ITC scoring sheet, mission packet, and the required codices for your specific comp. That's much less than half a dozen rulebooks, and if your opponent is doing the same with his codices, you have everything you need to keep each other accountable. I don't understand where the problem is besides GW's failure to put out a digital app like War Room that contains all the core rules for free and has the faction decks for 7 bucks each (not to mention free rules updates)...

Bharring wrote:
@Slayer
Yes, I honestly prefered how the CWE Index stacked up to other Indexes over how the Codex stacks up to other codexes.

Further, I think a lot of the additions actually take away from the game, instead of add to it. For instance, the CWE attributes. Game was better without them.

Did you, like, forget how bad Eldar were in the index? Even I felt bad for them and I wanted them to suck for a few months because of the 6th/7th edition Codices.

At least I learned I'm not actually a monster when that happened. I do have feelings!

I honestly think the Indexes were one of the best ideas GW ever had, and am very sad they decided not to pursue that train of thought for their future rule publications. Codex sourcebooks for individual armies is an artifact of the old pre-internet days and really should have been forgotten. With all of the things they streamlined, I'd even go as far as to say they could have fit every rule in the game into a single thick Core rulebook and later Chapter Approved Publications could just be essentially edition updates to it.

They should have just done what Age of Sigmar did, give the warscrolls free online, not worry about codex then use CA the same as GHB

 MattKing wrote:
Index orks were and are awesome. An dark eldar player (me) made this post and he DOES seem to agree. Frick tau.

I've always loved orks. The index almost made me hate them. I can't stand the green tide

Drukhari have become a shoot only army once again, my fav models are the coven ones.

SW are now SM painted in light blue. Only dread can be really viable among their typical units.

I really prefer 7th edition (by far) than 8th edition played with the indexes.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least.

I'm sure Orks, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar would disagree.

Lol whut?

Tau Index can almost go head to head with the weaker codexes, like Marines (yes it is a weak codex if you're not bringing Bobby G), they only whine cause Riptides suck and they can't autowin by bringing a few of those

Necrons got a huge buff on survivability, again, little to whine about

Tyranids got a blanket buff in 8th being a horde army and were also strong


Only Orks have some right to whining

Did someone really JUST say Necrons got a huge buff to survivability? Am I dreaming?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did someone really JUST say Necrons got a huge buff to survivability? Am I dreaming?

They have and it's not debatable, cause it's math


Old mechanic worked like FNP (feel no pain or current disgustingly resilient) , meaning that you fail the roll - you don't get to roll again, you can, roll reanimation protocol next turn and the turn after that... as long as there are any models in the unit alive.


Here is what it REALLY means:

Here is a comparison between what would happen if a unit of conscripts would shoot at you

OLD 60*0.34*0.34*0.5*0.5 = 1.73
vs
NEW 60*0.34*0.34*0.5=3.46

New mechanic means you lose twice more on the initial hit, however:


In 6 turns, you would have lost the entire unit under the old mechanic BUT

Under the new mechanic, the reanimation protocols will upkeep a unit alive and stable at ~3 models after the volley from conscripts


Meaning that on average the WILL NEVER kill a unit of Necron Warriors


Never is a strong term of course and if the opponent happens to roll all wounds and you faill all saves - you die, but statistically you are MUCH, MUCH more resilient in this edition


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


That's not all, beefier units like Leech Guard will actually be impervious to destruction by units even like Tank Commander Pask


So quit whining, now you really have to focus a unit a turn with your whole army to kill Necrons, they are much harder to dispose off

 BaconCatBug wrote:
Fun fact: You don't HAVE to use the codexes. If you think the bland and boring indexes were more fun, keep using them. The rest of us will be having fun over here with the codexes.

Fun fact: That only works with specifically asking for permission from opponent as default is latest only. You need to specifically agree to change the rules of the game to do that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 MattKing wrote:
The point of my "story time" paragraph wasn't to complain about a bad tourney, I had a very good time in fact. It was to point out that with 12 rule sources (and more each month) not all books are available all the time. It would be nice, in my opinion to be able to play this boardgame with a mere half dozen rulebooks.

Problem here is that tournament screwed up. Nobody should be allowed to play without rules for their models at hand in official source(I wouldn't trust any jpg etc. Those are fakeable). The player in question either should have had the Index with the SH rules or he shouldn't have been allowed to use it. Period. Like he shouldn't be allowed to use his space marines without having rules for them. FW or GW doesn't matter. No rules, no using models.

 Dovis wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 MattKing wrote:
I feel the same way. For the most part the indexed were fantastically balanced, internally at least.

I'm sure Orks, Tau, Necrons, Tyranids and Dark Eldar would disagree.

Lol whut?

Tau Index can almost go head to head with the weaker codexes, like Marines (yes it is a weak codex if you're not bringing Bobby G), they only whine cause Riptides suck and they can't autowin by bringing a few of those

Necrons got a huge buff on survivability, again, little to whine about

Tyranids got a blanket buff in 8th being a horde army and were also strong


Only Orks have some right to whining

Someone saying that Space Marines are weak and that Tau players only whine because Riptides suck. Oh the irony

tneva82 wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Play Indexhammer. Shouldn't be an issue. Those rules and books didn't disappear.

Of course this limits you out of random pick up games, leagues, tournaments etc. For many basically all games.

Absolutely - but what is the alternative? The only option at this point is to find a group of like-minded people, some folks willing to play Indexhammer - and do just that. GW obviously isn't going to change and there's a very high chance 8th edition will end up just as awful as 7th. So the only option left is for the players to take control of their gaming environment. This will obviously preclude tournaments --- though it's entirely feasible someone could run a small side-tournament based on Indices sometime?

 Galas wrote:

Someone saying that Space Marines are weak and that Tau players only whine because Riptides suck. Oh the irony

He specified that Space Marines are weak without Guilliman. He's not necessarily wrong.

I wouldn't say they're the worst book but let's not pretend that an all Primaris list is going to be rocking the tables, eh?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did someone really JUST say Necrons got a huge buff to survivability? Am I dreaming?

I was thinking the same. The new RP makes units less survivable than in 7th anyways. You're less likely to get to roll them, but you always got it in 7th.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Someone saying that Space Marines are weak and that Tau players only whine because Riptides suck. Oh the irony

He specified that Space Marines are weak without Guilliman. He's not necessarily wrong.

I wouldn't say they're the worst book but let's not pretend that an all Primaris list is going to be rocking the tables, eh?

I agree that Space Marines without guilliman aren't the real hotness. I just pointed out the hipocrisy of calling other people complaints "whinning" when he is complaining about space marines being weak.
Double standards and all of that.

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Someone saying that Space Marines are weak and that Tau players only whine because Riptides suck. Oh the irony

He specified that Space Marines are weak without Guilliman. He's not necessarily wrong.

I wouldn't say they're the worst book but let's not pretend that an all Primaris list is going to be rocking the tables, eh?

I agree that Space Marines without guilliman aren't the real hotness. I just pointed out the hipocrisy of calling other people complaints "whinning" when he is complaining about space marines being weak.
Double standards and all of that.

Again to be fair, look at some of the complaints from Tau players. You really want to pretend that it's not "whining" with some of the arguments that have been put forth?

 Dovis wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Did someone really JUST say Necrons got a huge buff to survivability? Am I dreaming?

They have and it's not debatable, cause it's math


Old mechanic worked like FNP (feel no pain or current disgustingly resilient) , meaning that you fail the roll - you don't get to roll again, you can, roll reanimation protocol next turn and the turn after that... as long as there are any models in the unit alive.


Here is what it REALLY means:

Here is a comparison between what would happen if a unit of conscripts would shoot at you

OLD 60*0.34*0.34*0.5*0.5 = 1.73
vs
NEW 60*0.34*0.34*0.5=3.46

New mechanic means you lose twice more on the initial hit, however:


In 6 turns, you would have lost the entire unit under the old mechanic BUT

Under the new mechanic, the reanimation protocols will upkeep a unit alive and stable at ~3 models after the volley from conscripts


Meaning that on average the WILL NEVER kill a unit of Necron Warriors


Never is a strong term of course and if the opponent happens to roll all wounds and you faill all saves - you die, but statistically you are MUCH, MUCH more resilient in this edition


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


That's not all, beefier units like Leech Guard will actually be impervious to destruction by units even like Tank Commander Pask


So quit whining, now you really have to focus a unit a turn with your whole army to kill Necrons, they are much harder to dispose off

That only works if there's still a dude alive.

Killing a whole unit is something that was likely going to be done anyway to get an objective or knock a threat away. 10 warriors in the new system can indefinitely roll, but if the last one dies that is it.

This is NOT a bump in resiliency and that's part of the reason Necrons are doing so bad at the moment.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Galas wrote:

Someone saying that Space Marines are weak and that Tau players only whine because Riptides suck. Oh the irony

He specified that Space Marines are weak without Guilliman. He's not necessarily wrong.

I wouldn't say they're the worst book but let's not pretend that an all Primaris list is going to be rocking the tables, eh?

I agree that Space Marines without guilliman aren't the real hotness. I just pointed out the hipocrisy of calling other people complaints "whinning" when he is complaining about space marines being weak.
Double standards and all of that.

Again to be fair, look at some of the complaints from Tau players. You really want to pretend that it's not "whining" with some of the arguments that have been put forth?

The same can be said about Space Marines. Just as I have defended the proper complaints for Space Marines I'm gonna defend the proper complaints for Tau.
I just despise this kind of generalisations putting all players of an army under an umbrella to discredit them.

 thekingofkings wrote:
They should have just done what Age of Sigmar did, give the warscrolls free online, not worry about codex then use CA the same as GHB

Agreed.