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2017/11/25 13:29:29
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
They seem to have nerfed Tervigons for some reason, increasing Massiv Scything Talons to 22 points (+12). That Close Combat Tervigon and Malceptor spam is finally dead! Wait... what?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 13:29:44
2017/11/25 13:30:12
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Darsath wrote: Many of the changes are quite puzzling, such as the conscript points change. Also a lot of omissions as well, such as the Changeling, and entirety of Tau or Necrons indexes (though they're getting a codex soon maybe? Should probably announce that).
I don't think this is puzzling. Sometimes they nerf things not to balance them but to essentially strike them from the game. Look at Razorwing Flocks. These units get included in the books because they have a history and GW knows that people would pitch a fit if they got rid of them entirely, but they don't intend for them to actually be used. Razorwings and Malefic Lords are clear examples of "oops, we didn't intend for anyone to actually use this". You could say something similar about the big FW superheavies in regular Matched Play, which almost all got huge and competitively-unnecessary price increases -- they just want to be sure that nobody shows up to a pick-up game with a Titan. Conscripts look like this to me too. They want you to just use Infantry instead.
And then the lack of Daemon, Tau, and Necron changes is easily explained.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 13:30:50
2017/11/25 13:35:47
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Yep why bother updating things for armies that are going to have a codex releases in a few months time - heck with the current pace at least two of those armies could have codex by the end of January. Makes full sense not to have them in the Chapter Approved as it would make publishing a codex almost pointless.
Overread wrote: Yep why bother updating things for armies that are going to have a codex releases in a few months time - heck with the current pace at least two of those armies could have codex by the end of January. Makes full sense not to have them in the Chapter Approved as it would make publishing a codex almost pointless.
Yeah I agree. Curious why they didn't announce the codexes, not why they wouldn't include the changes here. I'm sure someone will ask GW why there aren't many changes at some point, and it would explain it away quite easily.
2017/11/25 13:39:53
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
AS a necron player I was sort of holding out for this book. I would have loved for a more meaningful presence on the 40k table the next months before we have a codex in hand.
2017/11/25 13:49:34
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Commissar Benny wrote: I think the big take away from this is that the "new"GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.
Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.
Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.
What the actual zog? What was the ork nerf?! I can only assume at this point that they just want to remove orks from the game because of how little they pay attention to us.
There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see (and say) anything you want.
Not a nerf per say, more like, "HAHAHA they thought we were going to make their units worth taking HAHAHA"
Reductions: Mork - 20 pts Skorchas - 12 Warbuggies - 11 Wartrakks - 12 Big Choppa - 2 Kilkannon - 12 Killsaw - 3 Two killsaws - 12 Kombi Rokkit - 6 Kopta rokkit - 4 Kustom Mega Kannon - 6 Power Klaw - 12 Rack of rokkits - 4 Shokk attack gun - 20 Twin Big shoota - 4
This means that the morkanaut got its base price reduced by 20, then the two twin big shootas shaves off another 8, and the kustom mega kannon is another 6, so that brings down the Morkanaut from 374 points (assuming you have a KFF) to 340. Not exactly the points decrease I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
Also PKs went down by a lot. Good.
So breaking that down. Morkanaut is still unplayable because its a giant lump with no dakka to speak of and is weaker in CC then the Gorkanaut who is also borderline unplayable due to weapons costs and complete lack of dakka.
Skorcha's Buggies, Wartrakkz: I Will go on record right now and say that GW is going to push out a new Buggies model either before or with the codex release. Unfortunately none of them are worth a damn still even with that massive price cut. The Skorcha is the exception, it actually can hit its target sometimes.
Big Choppa: Whoopdee Fething Dooo. people were either taking the Big Choppa or NOTHING. 2pts does not change that at all, what it does do is make it more bearable to take on all our nobz because even with the massive price cut....
Power Klaw: IS STILL UNPLAYABLE. this thing went from AP2 (no armor saves allowed) and being able to instant kill vehicles and characters to D3 damage. Add in the -1 to hit for using it and Orkz primary Anti-Tank weapon is trash.
KillKannon: A completely garbage "Ranged" weapon became a cheaper garbage "Ranged" weapon that no one will take still. Sorry but I am not paying pts for a Ranged 24 S7 D6 shot weapon that hits on 5+. This thing is slightly better then a Rokkit which is about 50% over priced.
Killsaw: Same as PKs just not as bad, if this thing had gotten as massive a price cut then maybe Id take more of them.
Kombi-Rokkitz: Who cares? Who is really paying pts to give an Ork a Rokkit right now? even with the price cut it is a waste of points.
Kopta Rokkit: This brings the points comparisons of TL Ork weapons to where SMTL Weapons are at. For some reason Ork TL weapons got MORE expensive then the cost of a single weapon while almost everyone else stayed exactly double. This is a good thing, unfortunately, GW forget to reduce the cost of Rokkitz because NOBODY is paying 12pts to put rokkitz on anything hitting on a 5+.
KMK: not a bad step, but definitely still not where it needs to be. This might make people actually consider taking KMKs over a Kannon.
Shokk Attack Gun: A massively over priced weapon that is all but unusable got a hefty price cut....and is still over priced for what little it can do. if they TRIPLED its shots it would be playable, for now its relegated to the Shelf to collect dust.
Twin Big Shootas: Same as Twin Rokkitz or Kopta Rokkitz. This brought it inline with everyone elses Twin weapons. However, nobody is going to pay that many points for a S5 Ranged 36 weapon that hits on 5s. The only reason they even exist in some lists is because its the cheapest option they are required to take.
What Orkz really needed was a Hefty price cut to ALL of our vehicles, most notably the Trukk which went up in price by 250%, the Battlewagon which went up in price 50% and got less useful, and ALL of our walkers which range from 30% to 50% over priced....Except the Stompa, that thing is just a pile of crap that needs to get removed from the Codex entirely. We also really needed a heavy price cut or some kind of buffs to our Ranged arsenal. 12pts for a single shot Rokkit is about 50% to much.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 13:53:20
Commissar Benny wrote: I think the big take away from this is that the "new"GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.
Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.
Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.
What the actual zog? What was the ork nerf?! I can only assume at this point that they just want to remove orks from the game because of how little they pay attention to us.
There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see (and say) anything you want.
Not a nerf per say, more like, "HAHAHA they thought we were going to make their units worth taking HAHAHA"
Reductions:
Mork - 20 pts
Skorchas - 12
Warbuggies - 11
Wartrakks - 12
Big Choppa - 2
Kilkannon - 12
Killsaw - 3
Two killsaws - 12
Kombi Rokkit - 6
Kopta rokkit - 4
Kustom Mega Kannon - 6
Power Klaw - 12
Rack of rokkits - 4
Shokk attack gun - 20
Twin Big shoota - 4
This means that the morkanaut got its base price reduced by 20, then the two twin big shootas shaves off another 8, and the kustom mega kannon is another 6, so that brings down the Morkanaut from 374 points (assuming you have a KFF) to 340. Not exactly the points decrease I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
Also PKs went down by a lot. Good.
So breaking that down. Morkanaut is still unplayable because its a giant lump with no dakka to speak of and is weaker in CC then the Gorkanaut who is also borderline unplayable due to weapons costs and complete lack of dakka.
Skorcha's Buggies, Wartrakkz: I Will go on record right now and say that GW is going to push out a new Buggies model either before or with the codex release. Unfortunately none of them are worth a damn still even with that massive price cut. The Skorcha is the exception, it actually can hit its target sometimes.
Big Choppa: Whoopdee Fething Dooo. people were either taking the Big Choppa or NOTHING. 2pts does not change that at all, what it does do is make it more bearable to take on all our nobz because even with the massive price cut....
Power Klaw: IS STILL UNPLAYABLE. this thing went from AP2 (no armor saves allowed) and being able to instant kill vehicles and characters to D3 damage. Add in the -1 to hit for using it and Orkz primary Anti-Tank weapon is trash.
KillKannon: A completely garbage "Ranged" weapon became a cheaper garbage "Ranged" weapon that no one will take still. Sorry but I am not paying pts for a Ranged 24 S7 D6 shot weapon that hits on 5+. This thing is slightly better then a Rokkit which is about 50% over priced.
Killsaw: Same as PKs just not as bad, if this thing had gotten as massive a price cut then maybe Id take more of them.
Kombi-Rokkitz: Who cares? Who is really paying pts to give an Ork a Rokkit right now? even with the price cut it is a waste of points.
Kopta Rokkit: This brings the points comparisons of TL Ork weapons to where SMTL Weapons are at. For some reason Ork TL weapons got MORE expensive then the cost of a single weapon while almost everyone else stayed exactly double. This is a good thing, unfortunately, GW forget to reduce the cost of Rokkitz because NOBODY is paying 12pts to put rokkitz on anything hitting on a 5+.
KMK: not a bad step, but definitely still not where it needs to be. This might make people actually consider taking KMKs over a Kannon.
Shokk Attack Gun: A massively over priced weapon that is all but unusable got a hefty price cut....and is still over priced for what little it can do. if they TRIPLED its shots it would be playable, for now its relegated to the Shelf to collect dust.
Twin Big Shootas: Same as Twin Rokkitz or Kopta Rokkitz. This brought it inline with everyone elses Twin weapons. However, nobody is going to pay that many points for a S5 Ranged 36 weapon that hits on 5s. The only reason they even exist in some lists is because its the cheapest option they are required to take.
What Orkz really needed was a Hefty price cut to ALL of our vehicles, most notably the Trukk which went up in price by 250%, the Battlewagon which went up in price 50% and got less useful, and ALL of our walkers which range from 30% to 50% over priced....Except the Stompa, that thing is just a pile of crap that needs to get removed from the Codex entirely. We also really needed a heavy price cut or some kind of buffs to our Ranged arsenal. 12pts for a single shot Rokkit is about 50% to much.
Ok i'm going to take the bait. Why do you think that rokkits are overpriced at 12? You get the same amount of hits per point than a guard with a missile launcer (which costs 20 points) or a space marine with a missile launcher (which costs 25). Rokkits are almost identical to a missile launcer, except that to better reflect the way you will use them as orks, instead of being long range and heavy they are medium range and assault. We can discuss about which one is better, but i don't think there are enough arguments to call it crazily overpriced like you seem to be intending.
2017/11/25 14:09:37
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Drager wrote: They seem to have nerfed Tervigons for some reason, increasing Massiv Scything Talons to 22 points (+12). That Close Combat Tervigon and Malceptor spam is finally dead! Wait... what?
Pretty sure thats just for the hierodules.
2017/11/25 14:15:51
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Commissar Benny wrote: I think the big take away from this is that the "new"GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.
Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.
Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.
What the actual zog? What was the ork nerf?! I can only assume at this point that they just want to remove orks from the game because of how little they pay attention to us.
There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see (and say) anything you want.
Not a nerf per say, more like, "HAHAHA they thought we were going to make their units worth taking HAHAHA"
Reductions:
Mork - 20 pts
Skorchas - 12
Warbuggies - 11
Wartrakks - 12
Big Choppa - 2
Kilkannon - 12
Killsaw - 3
Two killsaws - 12
Kombi Rokkit - 6
Kopta rokkit - 4
Kustom Mega Kannon - 6
Power Klaw - 12
Rack of rokkits - 4
Shokk attack gun - 20
Twin Big shoota - 4
This means that the morkanaut got its base price reduced by 20, then the two twin big shootas shaves off another 8, and the kustom mega kannon is another 6, so that brings down the Morkanaut from 374 points (assuming you have a KFF) to 340. Not exactly the points decrease I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
Also PKs went down by a lot. Good.
So breaking that down. Morkanaut is still unplayable because its a giant lump with no dakka to speak of and is weaker in CC then the Gorkanaut who is also borderline unplayable due to weapons costs and complete lack of dakka.
Skorcha's Buggies, Wartrakkz: I Will go on record right now and say that GW is going to push out a new Buggies model either before or with the codex release. Unfortunately none of them are worth a damn still even with that massive price cut. The Skorcha is the exception, it actually can hit its target sometimes.
Big Choppa: Whoopdee Fething Dooo. people were either taking the Big Choppa or NOTHING. 2pts does not change that at all, what it does do is make it more bearable to take on all our nobz because even with the massive price cut....
Power Klaw: IS STILL UNPLAYABLE. this thing went from AP2 (no armor saves allowed) and being able to instant kill vehicles and characters to D3 damage. Add in the -1 to hit for using it and Orkz primary Anti-Tank weapon is trash.
KillKannon: A completely garbage "Ranged" weapon became a cheaper garbage "Ranged" weapon that no one will take still. Sorry but I am not paying pts for a Ranged 24 S7 D6 shot weapon that hits on 5+. This thing is slightly better then a Rokkit which is about 50% over priced.
Killsaw: Same as PKs just not as bad, if this thing had gotten as massive a price cut then maybe Id take more of them.
Kombi-Rokkitz: Who cares? Who is really paying pts to give an Ork a Rokkit right now? even with the price cut it is a waste of points.
Kopta Rokkit: This brings the points comparisons of TL Ork weapons to where SMTL Weapons are at. For some reason Ork TL weapons got MORE expensive then the cost of a single weapon while almost everyone else stayed exactly double. This is a good thing, unfortunately, GW forget to reduce the cost of Rokkitz because NOBODY is paying 12pts to put rokkitz on anything hitting on a 5+.
KMK: not a bad step, but definitely still not where it needs to be. This might make people actually consider taking KMKs over a Kannon.
Shokk Attack Gun: A massively over priced weapon that is all but unusable got a hefty price cut....and is still over priced for what little it can do. if they TRIPLED its shots it would be playable, for now its relegated to the Shelf to collect dust.
Twin Big Shootas: Same as Twin Rokkitz or Kopta Rokkitz. This brought it inline with everyone elses Twin weapons. However, nobody is going to pay that many points for a S5 Ranged 36 weapon that hits on 5s. The only reason they even exist in some lists is because its the cheapest option they are required to take.
What Orkz really needed was a Hefty price cut to ALL of our vehicles, most notably the Trukk which went up in price by 250%, the Battlewagon which went up in price 50% and got less useful, and ALL of our walkers which range from 30% to 50% over priced....Except the Stompa, that thing is just a pile of crap that needs to get removed from the Codex entirely. We also really needed a heavy price cut or some kind of buffs to our Ranged arsenal. 12pts for a single shot Rokkit is about 50% to much.
Ok i'm going to take the bait. Why do you think that rokkits are overpriced at 12? You get the same amount of hits per point than a guard with a missile launcer (which costs 20 points) or a space marine with a missile launcher (which costs 25). Rokkits are almost identical to a missile launcer, except that to better reflect the way you will use them as orks, instead of being long range and heavy they are medium range and assault. We can discuss about which one is better, but i don't think there are enough arguments to call it crazily overpriced like you seem to be intending.
Beyond being as you mentioned literally HALF ranged? or being forced to be mobile in order to get closer which makes them either unable to hit or at best -1 to hit? Or how about being stuck on either a massively over priced transport or in the hands of a mob of boyz with 6+ armor? or not having a secondary fire mode like SMs and Guard have or how about having less high end damage? last edition they were a 5pt upgrade and were taken as a "Meh" weapon, they weren't game breaking nor did they perform all that well, but the 1/3rd chance of doing something made Ork players go for it, now they went up in price 133% and nobody is taking them. Big Shootas and Rokkitz are used exclusively as REQUIRED weapons. Nobody takes them as anything else if they want to win.
Commissar Benny wrote: I think the big take away from this is that the "new"GW/FW needs to seriously reconsider how they operate. Either they need to improve on planning ahead or introduce a new department specifically aimed at altering printed material for situations like this. Conscripts being nerfed for the 3rd time illustrates a lack of communication, planning & organization internally.
Post 3rd nerf, conscripts are going to be yet another unit in the IG codex that will end up like penal legion, medusas etc. No one will use them because GW nerfed them into the ground & they will just end up being removed entirely from the codex.
Also nerfs to orks? Forgive me but that is the last thing orks need right now. I can only assume it will be addressed in the codex, but the last thing orks need is point increases to any unit. Common sense.
What the actual zog? What was the ork nerf?! I can only assume at this point that they just want to remove orks from the game because of how little they pay attention to us.
There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see (and say) anything you want.
Not a nerf per say, more like, "HAHAHA they thought we were going to make their units worth taking HAHAHA"
Reductions: Mork - 20 pts Skorchas - 12 Warbuggies - 11 Wartrakks - 12 Big Choppa - 2 Kilkannon - 12 Killsaw - 3 Two killsaws - 12 Kombi Rokkit - 6 Kopta rokkit - 4 Kustom Mega Kannon - 6 Power Klaw - 12 Rack of rokkits - 4 Shokk attack gun - 20 Twin Big shoota - 4
This means that the morkanaut got its base price reduced by 20, then the two twin big shootas shaves off another 8, and the kustom mega kannon is another 6, so that brings down the Morkanaut from 374 points (assuming you have a KFF) to 340. Not exactly the points decrease I was hoping for, but I'll take it.
Also PKs went down by a lot. Good.
So breaking that down. Morkanaut is still unplayable because its a giant lump with no dakka to speak of and is weaker in CC then the Gorkanaut who is also borderline unplayable due to weapons costs and complete lack of dakka.
Skorcha's Buggies, Wartrakkz: I Will go on record right now and say that GW is going to push out a new Buggies model either before or with the codex release. Unfortunately none of them are worth a damn still even with that massive price cut. The Skorcha is the exception, it actually can hit its target sometimes.
Big Choppa: Whoopdee Fething Dooo. people were either taking the Big Choppa or NOTHING. 2pts does not change that at all, what it does do is make it more bearable to take on all our nobz because even with the massive price cut....
Power Klaw: IS STILL UNPLAYABLE. this thing went from AP2 (no armor saves allowed) and being able to instant kill vehicles and characters to D3 damage. Add in the -1 to hit for using it and Orkz primary Anti-Tank weapon is trash.
KillKannon: A completely garbage "Ranged" weapon became a cheaper garbage "Ranged" weapon that no one will take still. Sorry but I am not paying pts for a Ranged 24 S7 D6 shot weapon that hits on 5+. This thing is slightly better then a Rokkit which is about 50% over priced.
Killsaw: Same as PKs just not as bad, if this thing had gotten as massive a price cut then maybe Id take more of them.
Kombi-Rokkitz: Who cares? Who is really paying pts to give an Ork a Rokkit right now? even with the price cut it is a waste of points.
Kopta Rokkit: This brings the points comparisons of TL Ork weapons to where SMTL Weapons are at. For some reason Ork TL weapons got MORE expensive then the cost of a single weapon while almost everyone else stayed exactly double. This is a good thing, unfortunately, GW forget to reduce the cost of Rokkitz because NOBODY is paying 12pts to put rokkitz on anything hitting on a 5+.
KMK: not a bad step, but definitely still not where it needs to be. This might make people actually consider taking KMKs over a Kannon.
Shokk Attack Gun: A massively over priced weapon that is all but unusable got a hefty price cut....and is still over priced for what little it can do. if they TRIPLED its shots it would be playable, for now its relegated to the Shelf to collect dust.
Twin Big Shootas: Same as Twin Rokkitz or Kopta Rokkitz. This brought it inline with everyone elses Twin weapons. However, nobody is going to pay that many points for a S5 Ranged 36 weapon that hits on 5s. The only reason they even exist in some lists is because its the cheapest option they are required to take.
What Orkz really needed was a Hefty price cut to ALL of our vehicles, most notably the Trukk which went up in price by 250%, the Battlewagon which went up in price 50% and got less useful, and ALL of our walkers which range from 30% to 50% over priced....Except the Stompa, that thing is just a pile of crap that needs to get removed from the Codex entirely. We also really needed a heavy price cut or some kind of buffs to our Ranged arsenal. 12pts for a single shot Rokkit is about 50% to much.
Ok i'm going to take the bait. Why do you think that rokkits are overpriced at 12? You get the same amount of hits per point than a guard with a missile launcer (which costs 20 points) or a space marine with a missile launcher (which costs 25). Rokkits are almost identical to a missile launcer, except that to better reflect the way you will use them as orks, instead of being long range and heavy they are medium range and assault. We can discuss about which one is better, but i don't think there are enough arguments to call it crazily overpriced like you seem to be intending.
Beyond being as you mentioned literally HALF ranged? or being forced to be mobile in order to get closer which makes them either unable to hit or at best -1 to hit? Or how about being stuck on either a massively over priced transport or in the hands of a mob of boyz with 6+ armor? or not having a secondary fire mode like SMs and Guard have or how about having less high end damage? last edition they were a 5pt upgrade and were taken as a "Meh" weapon, they weren't game breaking nor did they perform all that well, but the 1/3rd chance of doing something made Ork players go for it, now they went up in price 133% and nobody is taking them. Big Shootas and Rokkitz are used exclusively as REQUIRED weapons. Nobody takes them as anything else if they want to win.
Sorry, but i still don't get it. You have access to that weapon in a unit full of T4 ablative wounds, which is always considered a great advantage. If you don't like that, then you can put that on really cheap bodies (tankbustas), disregarding durability for maximizing fire power. As you also noted, you can load that unit onto a transport that is FAR from undercosted, 76 points before weapons for an open topped transport is really good (the closest comparison is with the raider, 95 points before weapons but has a 5++). Damage 3 is considered better than Damage D6, or at least equal, for obvious reasons. Not saying that orks are fine, results show that they are not, but hearing your comments i'm getting really confused on the reasons for that...
Note: Any comments on the line of "This was like this in 7th" will be ignored. Everything changed with 8th.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 14:39:16
2017/11/25 14:57:03
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Overread wrote: Yep why bother updating things for armies that are going to have a codex releases in a few months time - heck with the current pace at least two of those armies could have codex by the end of January. Makes full sense not to have them in the Chapter Approved as it would make publishing a codex almost pointless.
I was certainly under the impression that the points costs in Chapter Approved were at least partly meant to be a stopgap measure for armies that don't have a Codex released this year. For them to then turn into something which seems to mostly be rebalancing the armies that already have a Codex is somewhat confusing.
2017/11/25 14:57:12
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Wow, a bunch of the FW Eldar stuff got jacked up.
Revenant Titan went 1,200pts to 2,000.
Shadow Spectres went up 10ppm, essentially going for "auto-take" to "never-used" in one single go.
On the bright side, Deathshroud cannons went down 35pts each, making it a tempting choice, but still not for competitive games.
There wasn't an Ork nerf. Every single thing they listed was a point drop. But I suppose when the GW hate train is rolling you'll see anything you want to see.
Except for the killtank which went up by a lot, not that it really matters.
I stand corrected - though on a FW unit that I've never see make a list. And it was half the cost of a Baneblade base for nearly the same stats.
2017/11/25 16:32:50
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
So why did the Khorne Lord of Skulls get a points increase? It's not even a large one either, at least not large by comparison of an already massive unit. It seems sort of silly, given that its wargear bumps it clear over 600 anyways.
2017/11/25 16:43:17
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Shadow Spectres went up 10ppm, essentially going for "auto-take" to "never-used" in one single go.
-
You think Concealed Alaitoc Spectres wouldn't have been problematic?
Jetpacks, -2/-3 to hit, and a morale affecting ability coupled with guns that do a damned great job at causing morale checks...
In all honesty I thought the base cost should have gone up. You don't get to have the flexibility of a heavy flamer plus another mode for LESS than the cost of a heavy flamer. Now you're paying heavy flamer price plus 8 points for flexibility.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vaklor4 wrote: So why did the Khorne Lord of Skulls get a points increase? It's not even a large one either, at least not large by comparison of an already massive unit. It seems sort of silly, given that its wargear bumps it clear over 600 anyways.
It's not like 15 points will change the picture that much anyway especially since it's still down from 465. They likely want it to be similarly costed to other base models with similar stats, which it's pretty close to a Baneblade.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/25 16:47:15
2017/11/25 16:51:46
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Sorry, but i still don't get it.
You have access to that weapon in a unit full of T4 ablative wounds, which is always considered a great advantage. If you don't like that, then you can put that on really cheap bodies (tankbustas), disregarding durability for maximizing fire power. As you also noted, you can load that unit onto a transport that is FAR from undercosted, 76 points before weapons for an open topped transport is really good (the closest comparison is with the raider, 95 points before weapons but has a 5++). Damage 3 is considered better than Damage D6, or at least equal, for obvious reasons.
Not saying that orks are fine, results show that they are not, but hearing your comments i'm getting really confused on the reasons for that...
Note: Any comments on the line of "This was like this in 7th" will be ignored. Everything changed with 8th.
Clearly you never played orks and probably you even never faced them. Are tankbustas really cheap bodies???? They're quite overpriced instead, and also forced to take extremely overpriced transports since they're T4 1W 6+ save guyz.
12 tankbutas and a trukk are 286 points for an a average of 4 hits (6-7 against vehicles) at S8 Ap-2 D3 with a 24'' and 1 hit at S5 with no AP. The trukk is still a paper thing, T6 and 4+ save and it needs to get very close to the target, so it may not even fire in orks 1st turn since it may be out of range and be dead before firing the first shots.
Do you consider 3 rokkits in a 30 man boyz squad a good deal? 36 points for 3 rokkits that hit on 5s or 6s?
I don't get the example with the raider. Do you think it's an effective vehicle? It's another overpriced one. 82 points minimum for an open topped transport are not that good if the unit hits on 5s or 6s with a short range. If the trukk was T7 3+ save like the rhino maybe.
You're right about 8th edition. It screwed several orks units while making only 2-3 of them worthy after they were mediocre. 8th edition basically destroyed orks, not that they were OP before. Let's wait for the codex for a fair analysis but I don't have any faith, I think orks will be unplayable in the entire edition, unless they bring a green tide, which makes them extremely dull and boring to play and to face.
2017/11/25 16:53:01
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
ross-128 wrote: I had already switched all my conscripts to infantry squads after the Commissar nerf, but sure GW, beat that dead horse.
The change to Earthshakers is just bizarre. How does taking the heavy bolter off make the price go up by 7 points? O_o
7? HA HA HA HA Earthshaker battery have costed 80 ppm. And now it skyrocket to 115 ppm.
I'm aware of that, the "7 points" is relative to the Basilisk's price of 108.
Going down to 80 points because it loses its heavy bolter, its movement, and some durability makes sense. Honestly it is easily 28 points of stuff you give up going from a Basilisk to an Earthshaker, even if the role does make that a much more favorable trade in practice than on paper from a min-maxing perspective. Losing all those things and going *up* to 115 though? What?
2017/11/25 16:53:37
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Galef wrote: Wow, a bunch of the FW Eldar stuff got jacked up.
Revenant Titan went 1,200pts to 2,000.
Shadow Spectres went up 10ppm, essentially going for "auto-take" to "never-used" in one single go.
On the bright side, Deathshroud cannons went down 35pts each, making it a tempting choice, but still not for competitive games.
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Definitely will need to try out Shadow Spectres at the new points before making a decision, but 202pts for a 6 man unit with Exarch that is rather squishy sounds a bit much.
The Deathsroud change is almost pointless, you're still paying 610pts for a Skathatch with twin Deathshrouds and there's no way in hell it's worth that.
The one that annoys me though is the Phoenix Bomber. Finally got mine painted up to be used for the first time this weekend and it's now going up by 40pts.
2017/11/25 17:00:33
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
I'm a bit curious about what this could do to Forgeworld sales. Items going from 600 something points up to 2000...that's easily in the realm of "will never purchase", etc.
However, does Chapter Approved not bring in any changes to actual Power Level --- and as such are these items all going to be dirt cheap for Narrative games, and just wildly expensive for tournaments/matched play?
For instance, if the Eldar Revanant titan went from 1,200 points to 2000 but it's power level stayed the same...it becomes a fun unit in narrative games, but impossible to justify in tournaments. Perhaps that's the goal with this?
2017/11/25 17:04:16
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
Elbows wrote: I'm a bit curious about what this could do to Forgeworld sales. Items going from 600 something points up to 2000...that's easily in the realm of "will never purchase", etc.
To be fair if you're going to buy a titan you don't buy a titan just because you want to use it on the table; but to build and own a titan. I suspect its simply GW shifting the titan units back into Apoc and as Chapter Approved has Apoc rules within it there's no need to buy into another rules edition. Titans go up and players get Apoc rules to use them in at the same time.
I think its also about having titans in their own meta rather than having them creeping into more regular points levels whereby they can be more make or break in armies.
Elbows wrote: I'm a bit curious about what this could do to Forgeworld sales. Items going from 600 something points up to 2000...that's easily in the realm of "will never purchase", etc.
However, does Chapter Approved not bring in any changes to actual Power Level --- and as such are these items all going to be dirt cheap for Narrative games, and just wildly expensive for tournaments/matched play?
For instance, if the Eldar Revanant titan went from 1,200 points to 2000 but it's power level stayed the same...it becomes a fun unit in narrative games, but impossible to justify in tournaments. Perhaps that's the goal with this?
That would seem likely. All the Titans got massive point increases. It would seem they're trying to keep the stuff"intended" for narrative or apocalypse play out of tournament play.
2017/11/25 17:07:31
Subject: Chapter Approved: Tears of joy, sadness and rage.
All the points changes, even the ones people don't like, are good and necessary. You're free to clutch your pearls and not buy or use the book, but don't be surprised when the majority just laughs at you and goes back to playing the proper game.
