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Unit1126PLL wrote: But 2 tanks, or 1 tank, isn't a "superheavy tank company" but is rather "a single or pair of vehicles having gone to support something else" which is not the theme I want.
So is there a way to use 416 points to make a skewy list less skewy? I've considered spending that 416 on a battalion of Imperial Guard, but I think it's still "skew" in the strictest sense. Any thoughts beyond "your theme is bad, and the fact that you consider it your theme and don't want to break it is uncompromising"?
This assumes company is always at full strength which actually is highly suspicious. Dropping one SHT isn't taking theme away from super heavy tank company.
Nidzrule! wrote: Sure - I think you are saying that playing rock paper scissors lists / one trick ponies which mean that a bad matchup results in a poor game for the other opponent or a poor game for you naturally results in poorer sportsmanship scores because one party never feels "part" of the game / or interacting.
Whereas more balanced lists where there is the chance of an outplay gives the feeling of more interactivity and therefore a better game experience for both sides, no matter the outcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said the Guilliman plus assback lists - while it wont table you turn 1, does put a dent in the enemy if they get a good alpha strike off.
By the way, not saying that youtubing is the main reason for the winner getting good sports scores - I am trying to understand what he did!
Do you think there is a way to make skew lists (i.e. IG Armoured Company, Baneblade company [in my case], or whathaveyou) fun to play against other than "not play them?"
I'd love to play my superheavy companies fairly routinely, but getting games above 2k is rare, and at 2k it becomes a skew list simply by virtue of existing, which is upsetting.
It depends on how committed you are and how much you are willing to bend your theme a bit. My example was obviously someone wanting to play an all-genestealer army (taking nothing but Purestrains and Patriarchs and Cult Ambushing them in). In theory, any change beyond Patriarchs and Purestrains is, to him, me saying "just don't play them." Obviously you could just walk the genestealers at someone, but then you'd just lose every game and you still wouldn't have any added player agency, just more auto-loses than auto-wins.
The real answer is very simple, it just has to be restated again and again because people who like their skew lists tend to be highly resistant to breaking up their theme - you have to make it a TAC list. If you've got all baneblades, and your opponent took all IG lascannon teams against you, or all Tau fusion suits, you would 100% always lose. Wouldn't even have to be that extreme, any anti armor skew, you'd be done. Reduce the fraction of your list dedicated to just baneblades just enough that you could fight that fight, and you'd have yourself a reasonable TAC list.
Every list has some skew. The Guilliman Assback list mentioned absolutely does - it's got armor skew, with usually only 200-300 points in non-guilliman infantry. But usually (because these people are trying to win tournaments) it's just enough that in the event of an opponent with anti-armor skew, they can fight back with their infantry elements.
It all depends on the rigidity of your theme, and how willing you are to be flexible within the definition. An All-Genestealer All The Time If you Make Me Take Not Genestealer Units You Are Taking Away My Theme list is always going to be super super skew, and is going to definitely be a less interactive experience than, say, a tyranid Vanguard Organism list, or a genestealer-heavy cult list that also has a few tanks and a few neophytes and whatnot.
IG armored company? Super easy to make into an interactive TAC list, add a couple chimera-borne obsec infantry squads, a few scout sentinels, and suddenly you've solved a lot of your auto-lose matchups while also not having as much bonkers turn 1 down-range firepower reducing your auto-wins. Only baneblades? You're going to have a tough time.
But you've heard this. You ask the same questions every time this comes up, and you interpret the answer as "just don't play your theme" every time.
So your answer is ... what exactly?
What does be more flexible mean? After Chapter Approved, I've got 416 points to play with if I want to run a Baneblade company. That 416 points can be anything - Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Skitarii, Adepta Sororitas, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Assassins, whatever! I don't really care.
My theme is superheavy tank companies, that's true. And that means 3 tanks, that's also true.
But 2 tanks, or 1 tank, isn't a "superheavy tank company" but is rather "a single or pair of vehicles having gone to support something else" which is not the theme I want.
So is there a way to use 416 points to make a skewy list less skewy? I've considered spending that 416 on a battalion of Imperial Guard, but I think it's still "skew" in the strictest sense. Any thoughts beyond "your theme is bad, and the fact that you consider it your theme and don't want to break it is uncompromising"?
Replace "superheavy tanks" with literally anything else.
My Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army is a fluffy Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army, and that means 8 units of 8 khorne bezerkers in a fluff-adherent skullmurderhost. I have 400 points left since I only play 1500 point games with my Skullmurderhost, so what can I spend those on to not make my list a skew list?
The answer is, and has been given to you many, many times: No, there is no way to make 3 Baneblades in a 2000 point list NOT a skew list. There is no physical way to do it. Just like you can't make an Imperial Knight list in 1000 points that isn't a skew list if you want more than 1 knight (because it's not a knight list if it's just one knight!) You have created a box for yourself that is small enough that you cannot make a TAC list out of it. You either need to get a bigger box (play higher points values) or change the box (not 3 baneblades minimum). Those are your options if you are actually invested in making your list not a skew list. You could just be comfortable with the fact that you play a skew list - plenty of people do! I've seen all-dread lists, all bike lists, all drop pod lists, all infantry lists, you name it, it's a common thing for people to do in 40k.
Given that you come onto nearly every thread that tangentially mentions skew lists to ask the same leading questions so you can act defensive about your army setup, I feel like you aren't comfortable with accepting that you play a skew list. I don't know man. I don't get it. Why are you so desperate to get reassurance from random internet people that your army is not a skew list?
Because I don't want it to be a skew list, and I want it to be fun for my opponent as much as me.
Maybe I'm hoping someone will come along with some brilliant solution that can fix it - that's my secret hope.
That or... I dunno. I just want the list to be as fun for my opponents, so I can play it. I don't care if it wins, but I do care if it's thematic.
I'd play higher points - in fact, I'll ask for that this weekend at the club if we're not doing the campaign. Hopefully I can get a bunch of 2500 pt games or even 3k point games going, but people just hate it for some reason, possibly because they feel there's not enough space on the board or they don't own enough models.
416 points can buy a fair amount of IG bodies and change the feel of your list, as long as you deploy them outside the baneblades, I'd certainly ahve fun facing something like this alongside 3 baneblades:
Batallion
Company Commander, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Lord Commissar, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Axe
416 points, adds 38 models which can be used to take objectives and/or screen baneblades. If your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with the baneblades the game will still be hard for them, but at least they have something to fight against that is meaningful (Killing oyur troops makes it harder for you to do the things they are helping with).
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/11/28 12:14:09
It's a popularity contest first and foremost. You know lots of people at the tournament? You get a good score. You're 40k famous? You get a good score. Other than that it's about luck (what kind of people you run into), being polite and yes, making suboptimal choices.
Be a known 40k Youtuber, know everyone at the event, dodge the TFGs and play a crappy list badly with a smile on your face and a joke on your tongue.
Unit1126PLL wrote: But 2 tanks, or 1 tank, isn't a "superheavy tank company" but is rather "a single or pair of vehicles having gone to support something else" which is not the theme I want.
So is there a way to use 416 points to make a skewy list less skewy? I've considered spending that 416 on a battalion of Imperial Guard, but I think it's still "skew" in the strictest sense. Any thoughts beyond "your theme is bad, and the fact that you consider it your theme and don't want to break it is uncompromising"?
This assumes company is always at full strength which actually is highly suspicious. Dropping one SHT isn't taking theme away from super heavy tank company.
It does break regimental doctrines and reduce my CP.
I don't think it is that suspicious if there are no other regiments around for suppo-
You know what we can take it to PMs if you want. I don't wanna derail the thread.
Nidzrule! wrote: Sure - I think you are saying that playing rock paper scissors lists / one trick ponies which mean that a bad matchup results in a poor game for the other opponent or a poor game for you naturally results in poorer sportsmanship scores because one party never feels "part" of the game / or interacting.
Whereas more balanced lists where there is the chance of an outplay gives the feeling of more interactivity and therefore a better game experience for both sides, no matter the outcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said the Guilliman plus assback lists - while it wont table you turn 1, does put a dent in the enemy if they get a good alpha strike off.
By the way, not saying that youtubing is the main reason for the winner getting good sports scores - I am trying to understand what he did!
Do you think there is a way to make skew lists (i.e. IG Armoured Company, Baneblade company [in my case], or whathaveyou) fun to play against other than "not play them?"
I'd love to play my superheavy companies fairly routinely, but getting games above 2k is rare, and at 2k it becomes a skew list simply by virtue of existing, which is upsetting.
It depends on how committed you are and how much you are willing to bend your theme a bit. My example was obviously someone wanting to play an all-genestealer army (taking nothing but Purestrains and Patriarchs and Cult Ambushing them in). In theory, any change beyond Patriarchs and Purestrains is, to him, me saying "just don't play them." Obviously you could just walk the genestealers at someone, but then you'd just lose every game and you still wouldn't have any added player agency, just more auto-loses than auto-wins.
The real answer is very simple, it just has to be restated again and again because people who like their skew lists tend to be highly resistant to breaking up their theme - you have to make it a TAC list. If you've got all baneblades, and your opponent took all IG lascannon teams against you, or all Tau fusion suits, you would 100% always lose. Wouldn't even have to be that extreme, any anti armor skew, you'd be done. Reduce the fraction of your list dedicated to just baneblades just enough that you could fight that fight, and you'd have yourself a reasonable TAC list.
Every list has some skew. The Guilliman Assback list mentioned absolutely does - it's got armor skew, with usually only 200-300 points in non-guilliman infantry. But usually (because these people are trying to win tournaments) it's just enough that in the event of an opponent with anti-armor skew, they can fight back with their infantry elements.
It all depends on the rigidity of your theme, and how willing you are to be flexible within the definition. An All-Genestealer All The Time If you Make Me Take Not Genestealer Units You Are Taking Away My Theme list is always going to be super super skew, and is going to definitely be a less interactive experience than, say, a tyranid Vanguard Organism list, or a genestealer-heavy cult list that also has a few tanks and a few neophytes and whatnot.
IG armored company? Super easy to make into an interactive TAC list, add a couple chimera-borne obsec infantry squads, a few scout sentinels, and suddenly you've solved a lot of your auto-lose matchups while also not having as much bonkers turn 1 down-range firepower reducing your auto-wins. Only baneblades? You're going to have a tough time.
But you've heard this. You ask the same questions every time this comes up, and you interpret the answer as "just don't play your theme" every time.
So your answer is ... what exactly?
What does be more flexible mean? After Chapter Approved, I've got 416 points to play with if I want to run a Baneblade company. That 416 points can be anything - Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Skitarii, Adepta Sororitas, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Assassins, whatever! I don't really care.
My theme is superheavy tank companies, that's true. And that means 3 tanks, that's also true.
But 2 tanks, or 1 tank, isn't a "superheavy tank company" but is rather "a single or pair of vehicles having gone to support something else" which is not the theme I want.
So is there a way to use 416 points to make a skewy list less skewy? I've considered spending that 416 on a battalion of Imperial Guard, but I think it's still "skew" in the strictest sense. Any thoughts beyond "your theme is bad, and the fact that you consider it your theme and don't want to break it is uncompromising"?
Replace "superheavy tanks" with literally anything else.
My Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army is a fluffy Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army, and that means 8 units of 8 khorne bezerkers in a fluff-adherent skullmurderhost. I have 400 points left since I only play 1500 point games with my Skullmurderhost, so what can I spend those on to not make my list a skew list?
The answer is, and has been given to you many, many times: No, there is no way to make 3 Baneblades in a 2000 point list NOT a skew list. There is no physical way to do it. Just like you can't make an Imperial Knight list in 1000 points that isn't a skew list if you want more than 1 knight (because it's not a knight list if it's just one knight!) You have created a box for yourself that is small enough that you cannot make a TAC list out of it. You either need to get a bigger box (play higher points values) or change the box (not 3 baneblades minimum). Those are your options if you are actually invested in making your list not a skew list. You could just be comfortable with the fact that you play a skew list - plenty of people do! I've seen all-dread lists, all bike lists, all drop pod lists, all infantry lists, you name it, it's a common thing for people to do in 40k.
Given that you come onto nearly every thread that tangentially mentions skew lists to ask the same leading questions so you can act defensive about your army setup, I feel like you aren't comfortable with accepting that you play a skew list. I don't know man. I don't get it. Why are you so desperate to get reassurance from random internet people that your army is not a skew list?
Because I don't want it to be a skew list, and I want it to be fun for my opponent as much as me.
Maybe I'm hoping someone will come along with some brilliant solution that can fix it - that's my secret hope.
That or... I dunno. I just want the list to be as fun for my opponents, so I can play it. I don't care if it wins, but I do care if it's thematic.
I'd play higher points - in fact, I'll ask for that this weekend at the club if we're not doing the campaign. Hopefully I can get a bunch of 2500 pt games or even 3k point games going, but people just hate it for some reason, possibly because they feel there's not enough space on the board or they don't own enough models.
416 points can buy a fair amount of IG bodies and change the feel of your list, as long as you deploy them outside the baneblades, I'd certainly ahve fun facing something like this alongside 3 baneblades:
Batallion
Company Commander, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Lord Commissar, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Axe
416 points, adds 38 models which can be used to take objectives and/or screen baneblades. If your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with the baneblades the game will still be hard for them, but at least they have something to fight against that is meaningful (Killing oyur troops makes it harder for you to do the things they are helping with).
That is a neat little list! Is that enough of a deviation from "skew" to make it sportsmanly?
Personally, I think that being a good sport takes most of the same skills as being a good date. Be interested in the other person, their army choice, their anecdotes and such. Listen more than talk, unless the other person would rather be the listener (and know how to tell the difference). Make jokes and laugh, but make yourself the butt of them. Generally be fun to be around.
I also make a point in tournaments of giving my Best Sport vote to someone who beat me if I can (and they were a good sport), because I know there is a bias against someone doing better than yourself. If no one beats me then I just give it to whoever was most fun. I've had to go find people I've played after a tournament before to relive the battle together, and share the awesome with friends. I think those are the best of games, win or lose, and often lead to mutual best sport picks.
I would also point out that I do pretty well on sportsmanship and I also have some people I only see at tournaments, but always hope to play (and they hope to play me) as its fun. Despite this I take the most brutal list I can nearly all the time so I don't think that has as big an impact as folks think.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 12:54:46
1. Watch Fist Of The North Star, and optionally G Gundam.
2. Your Goal is to recreate that atmosphere with your models on the table. If you can actually recreate or homage them through some of your models, bonus points.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 12:54:25
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
I learned one of my best lessons in sportsmanship from a chaos player I faced while in the midst of a tournament. My list utilized an OP combo which tyranids used to be able to pull off. He set up as he could to me and advanced. My first turn I killed half his army. By turn three the game was over and I had tabled him. Each round I had to watch him carefully because he was CHEERING me. At first his enthusiasm seemed fake or at the very least seriously misplaced. I came to realize that it was genuine. He was totally enjoying the game despite being slaughtered. Ever since I have tried to emulate that. Later, in a totally unrelated tournament I had my foe high five me cheering when I pulled out an unlikely win. Again, great sportsmanship comes from the enjoyment of the game.
Since then I have sought to emulate that enthusiasm whenever I play. I always cheer opponents success and sympathize with their failures. Since this game revolves around dice I have always cheered my foes good luck and reviled their bad dice with equal measure. I HATE when my opponent revels in my bad luck. I feel like that is emblematic of bad sportsmanship. To take pleasure in someone else’s misfortune.
I also try my best to be a good sport when I am loosing miserably. It helps to make choices in game that will give some measure of reward despite the grim overall outcome of the game. During a tournament facing eldar wave serpent spam during 7th ed I had No chance of being a success. I set my mind on killing one unit in my foes army befor being tabled. I was able to kill a single wraith knight. With that I shook hands with my opponent and called it a game. We had several shots together over the game board with him conceding that there was no possible chance of my winning. Under most conditions I would fight to the bitter end, but in this game it wa pointless.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 14:16:54
Pestilence Provides.
2017/11/28 14:34:07
Subject: Re:How to be a good sportsman at the table?
"Good Sportsman" means different things to different people.
My own personal opinion is to enjoy the chosen competition and to appear as inclusive as possible: you are basically thanking your competitor for the opportunity to play/compete which is a genuine thing.
BUT if you want to go for the Competitive TFG player's guide to getting the vote for good sportsman:
- Lose the game. The closer you make the loss the better, but it is a tactical error to win.
- If you do win... you MUST say "That was such a close game! I was surprised it turned out that way. Well played game!"
- Tell your opponent "good game" and give every appearance to admire their brilliance as a player.
- Be supportive, say: "Amazing rolls!", "You were robbed!".
- Always compliment their models even if they are missing parts...
- Be lightening fast at finishing your turn, the longer they wait, the less sportsmanlike you appear.
- Allow "take-backs" on moves/choices to happen (say "I make that mistake all the time...").
- Allow every disagreement on rules go to your opponent (say "No big deal, go for it").
- Never point out if an opponent is cheating, if you must: end with "it was an honest mistake."
- Do not utterly destroy a unit in a turn, spread out the damage, your opponent's moral is important.
- likewise, do not do anything unexpected, upset opponent = thinking you are unfair.
- Appear interested in the person's life and interact on whatever your opponent likes to drone on... er, is passionate about.
It is an ugly thing channeling that evil voice in the back of the head, I do not let him out much.
I REALLY like my games and so the easy thing to do is treat others as I would want to be treated... but I tend to like a bit more abuse so I back off a bit.
<edit> In the past I think I have made a more "positive" list, @sennacherib he has the right idea, there are awesome people out there that are happy with the entirety of the game including their opponent's achievements. Well done.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 14:38:07
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
"Pick an objective" is a great way to salvage fun - for both players - in a very onesided game (either because lists or because dice).
If you know you're not going to win, just sitting there and taking the blows will become grudgingly. Turn you sour. So either revel in the spectacle of just what a terror those Chaos guys really are, or choose some other goal, even if it doesn't help you win. Such as, yeah, I'm going to get destroyed, but i will Hold the Line, dangit! Or, see that squad? I hate them. They peed on my shrine before the game! They are going to die, no matter what!".
This doesn't work in competitive games so much (your opponent then wants you to try your best to do as least-bad as you can), but can be a lot of fun.
There was a DE player who I played a lot. He always brought Scourges. I always brought Hawks. Both would spend the first few turns doing their job. Then, regardless of situation, WINGFIGHT!
One squad would make a beeline to the other when it could, and charge. Usually, they spent the rest of the game slapping eachother with their wings (4+ vs 5+ 5++, so fairly even). But we always enjoyed it. The first time, it was a strategic decision (I needed to keep him from popping my tank, and charging his scourge with my Hawks was the only way to do that). Every time after that, it was tradtion.
The loser of the game never cared about losing the game. A WINGFIGHT! was had. And that's what mattered.
I've lost gracefully, and I've lost as a sore loser. It takes an effort for me, personally, not to be a sore loser. But almost every time I've made that effort, it's been worth it.
Bharring wrote: "Pick an objective" is a great way to salvage fun - for both players - in a very onesided game (either because lists or because dice).
If you know you're not going to win, just sitting there and taking the blows will become grudgingly. Turn you sour. So either revel in the spectacle of just what a terror those Chaos guys really are, or choose some other goal, even if it doesn't help you win. Such as, yeah, I'm going to get destroyed, but i will Hold the Line, dangit! Or, see that squad? I hate them. They peed on my shrine before the game! They are going to die, no matter what!".
I think the most fun I had in a game was when I was losing.
I knew I was toast.
But I had an idea.
I said "My army will not go down with dishonor, they will kill your commander and you... cannot... stop... it... from... happening." gauntlet thrown, madness ensued.
His commander barely survived and I think I had not seen a win celebrated so well and still be in good taste, I enjoyed it too.
I then ended with "This is not over, we will have our revenge!" Oddly enough, next match I did manage to kill the commander AND win and I think that is the first time I had an opponent seem to enjoy my win more than me.
We remade our "commander" models with a dead version of the other guy at their feet... out of respect of course!
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
One of my 5th company superheavies (aptly named Virgin) was instrumental in so many games when I lived in Swansea that she became ... well, not a virgin for long, I must say...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 14:47:37
Some doozies:
1. Constantly bickering over rule interpretations
2. Not knowing the rules, looking things up every single time. (I understand some people have issues with memory, make a cheat sheet instead of book flipping.)
3. Trying to wiggle out every single fraction of an inch for everything.
4. Asking about a rule, then being surprised/upset about the rule later in the game. (I told you what it was ffs...)
Some ways to make a game go easier:
1. Ask your opponent to measure the charge distance or look at it with you before you roll.
2. Explain that you are placing a unit in a way that even if something gets bumped later it's understood that you were "x" inches away. (Deep strike especially, "I'm putting this 9 inches away in case something on the table happens when we get to assault.")
3. Knowing your rules and warning the other player if they are running into a dumb buzz saw because they misheard you.
To be fair, Sfshilo, your number 4 "doozie" could just be misdirected anger at GW.
For example, I recognize that the Steel Behemoth rule for Baneblades which means that you can't stop their overwatch just by booping into contact is super frustrating. It's bad enough in the shooting phase, but for some reason, being able to Overwatch with enemy models already within 1" triggers people.
I imagine it's because that's a fairly simple way to end overwatch for other units, but there are still powers / abilities out there that remove Overwatch entirely such as the Terrify psychic power.
As for your number 3 helpful hint:
I agree, but sometimes even if they do hear you they don't quite fully process the rule. For example, people assume that Steel Behemoth only works in the shooting phase for whatever reason. I never got to the bottom of why they might believe that, but it's there, and common.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 15:15:17
-Complaining that High Elves are OP because they can hit at I5 at S5!... While they're in combat with Chaos Warriors hitting at I5 S5 while being T4 and still getting a save.
-Commenting on another player's game that all CWE lists are broken, even that one, because Rangers and Banshees also have Bladestorm and Battle Focus.
Being sour about anything - even if you're sour you're up against Scatter Bike Spam or SM Gladius or Bobby or whatever isn't condusive to a good time for anyone.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 15:25:17
2017/11/28 15:27:34
Subject: Re:How to be a good sportsman at the table?
Man, a lot of these replies are depressingly off-base. Being a good sport has little to do with what kind of list you bring or how popular you are. Luckily, or perhaps unluckily, it's all about personality and character.
Looking at the Guilliman/Razorback spam player who won Heat 1 of the GT, Lawrence Baker (the main guy on the Tabletop Tactics YouTube channel)...
He does not:
- Get salty about losing
- Pout when dice don't go his way
- Cheat
- Get aggressive about rules (you can ask nicely "Doesn't that only do D3 damage?" or "What's their armor save?")
- Complain about opponent's lists
- Blame his losses on bad luck (even if it is the case)
- Gloat when winning
He does:
- Laugh off bad dice rolls
- Engage in friendly banter
- Sympathize with his opponents' bad rolls
- Enjoy the fluffy and cinematic aspects of the game
- Have fun, winning or losing
I'm sure I missed plenty, but there's no math equation here - just look up a definition of sportsmanship. Failing that, think about the opponents you don't like to play, what it is that they do that makes it unpleasant, and try and avoid those things. Do the opposite for opponents you enjoy playing. I haven't lost to most players at my LGS, but (as they report) they always enjoy playing me, and never turn down a game.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/11/28 15:32:03
Nidzrule! wrote: Sure - I think you are saying that playing rock paper scissors lists / one trick ponies which mean that a bad matchup results in a poor game for the other opponent or a poor game for you naturally results in poorer sportsmanship scores because one party never feels "part" of the game / or interacting.
Whereas more balanced lists where there is the chance of an outplay gives the feeling of more interactivity and therefore a better game experience for both sides, no matter the outcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said the Guilliman plus assback lists - while it wont table you turn 1, does put a dent in the enemy if they get a good alpha strike off.
By the way, not saying that youtubing is the main reason for the winner getting good sports scores - I am trying to understand what he did!
Do you think there is a way to make skew lists (i.e. IG Armoured Company, Baneblade company [in my case], or whathaveyou) fun to play against other than "not play them?"
I'd love to play my superheavy companies fairly routinely, but getting games above 2k is rare, and at 2k it becomes a skew list simply by virtue of existing, which is upsetting.
It depends on how committed you are and how much you are willing to bend your theme a bit. My example was obviously someone wanting to play an all-genestealer army (taking nothing but Purestrains and Patriarchs and Cult Ambushing them in). In theory, any change beyond Patriarchs and Purestrains is, to him, me saying "just don't play them." Obviously you could just walk the genestealers at someone, but then you'd just lose every game and you still wouldn't have any added player agency, just more auto-loses than auto-wins.
The real answer is very simple, it just has to be restated again and again because people who like their skew lists tend to be highly resistant to breaking up their theme - you have to make it a TAC list. If you've got all baneblades, and your opponent took all IG lascannon teams against you, or all Tau fusion suits, you would 100% always lose. Wouldn't even have to be that extreme, any anti armor skew, you'd be done. Reduce the fraction of your list dedicated to just baneblades just enough that you could fight that fight, and you'd have yourself a reasonable TAC list.
Every list has some skew. The Guilliman Assback list mentioned absolutely does - it's got armor skew, with usually only 200-300 points in non-guilliman infantry. But usually (because these people are trying to win tournaments) it's just enough that in the event of an opponent with anti-armor skew, they can fight back with their infantry elements.
It all depends on the rigidity of your theme, and how willing you are to be flexible within the definition. An All-Genestealer All The Time If you Make Me Take Not Genestealer Units You Are Taking Away My Theme list is always going to be super super skew, and is going to definitely be a less interactive experience than, say, a tyranid Vanguard Organism list, or a genestealer-heavy cult list that also has a few tanks and a few neophytes and whatnot.
IG armored company? Super easy to make into an interactive TAC list, add a couple chimera-borne obsec infantry squads, a few scout sentinels, and suddenly you've solved a lot of your auto-lose matchups while also not having as much bonkers turn 1 down-range firepower reducing your auto-wins. Only baneblades? You're going to have a tough time.
But you've heard this. You ask the same questions every time this comes up, and you interpret the answer as "just don't play your theme" every time.
So your answer is ... what exactly?
What does be more flexible mean? After Chapter Approved, I've got 416 points to play with if I want to run a Baneblade company. That 416 points can be anything - Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Skitarii, Adepta Sororitas, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Assassins, whatever! I don't really care.
My theme is superheavy tank companies, that's true. And that means 3 tanks, that's also true.
But 2 tanks, or 1 tank, isn't a "superheavy tank company" but is rather "a single or pair of vehicles having gone to support something else" which is not the theme I want.
So is there a way to use 416 points to make a skewy list less skewy? I've considered spending that 416 on a battalion of Imperial Guard, but I think it's still "skew" in the strictest sense. Any thoughts beyond "your theme is bad, and the fact that you consider it your theme and don't want to break it is uncompromising"?
Replace "superheavy tanks" with literally anything else.
My Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army is a fluffy Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army, and that means 8 units of 8 khorne bezerkers in a fluff-adherent skullmurderhost. I have 400 points left since I only play 1500 point games with my Skullmurderhost, so what can I spend those on to not make my list a skew list?
The answer is, and has been given to you many, many times: No, there is no way to make 3 Baneblades in a 2000 point list NOT a skew list. There is no physical way to do it. Just like you can't make an Imperial Knight list in 1000 points that isn't a skew list if you want more than 1 knight (because it's not a knight list if it's just one knight!) You have created a box for yourself that is small enough that you cannot make a TAC list out of it. You either need to get a bigger box (play higher points values) or change the box (not 3 baneblades minimum). Those are your options if you are actually invested in making your list not a skew list. You could just be comfortable with the fact that you play a skew list - plenty of people do! I've seen all-dread lists, all bike lists, all drop pod lists, all infantry lists, you name it, it's a common thing for people to do in 40k.
Given that you come onto nearly every thread that tangentially mentions skew lists to ask the same leading questions so you can act defensive about your army setup, I feel like you aren't comfortable with accepting that you play a skew list. I don't know man. I don't get it. Why are you so desperate to get reassurance from random internet people that your army is not a skew list?
Because I don't want it to be a skew list, and I want it to be fun for my opponent as much as me.
Maybe I'm hoping someone will come along with some brilliant solution that can fix it - that's my secret hope.
That or... I dunno. I just want the list to be as fun for my opponents, so I can play it. I don't care if it wins, but I do care if it's thematic.
I'd play higher points - in fact, I'll ask for that this weekend at the club if we're not doing the campaign. Hopefully I can get a bunch of 2500 pt games or even 3k point games going, but people just hate it for some reason, possibly because they feel there's not enough space on the board or they don't own enough models.
416 points can buy a fair amount of IG bodies and change the feel of your list, as long as you deploy them outside the baneblades, I'd certainly ahve fun facing something like this alongside 3 baneblades:
Batallion
Company Commander, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Lord Commissar, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Axe
416 points, adds 38 models which can be used to take objectives and/or screen baneblades. If your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with the baneblades the game will still be hard for them, but at least they have something to fight against that is meaningful (Killing oyur troops makes it harder for you to do the things they are helping with).
That is a neat little list! Is that enough of a deviation from "skew" to make it sportsmanly?
Sorry missed this the other day as we cross posted. I'd say that it does for me to play against. You are mostly going to be using none bane blades for objectives and such and it gives me options to engage and play around. It will vary from opponent to opponent I would guess, but I'm sure you would find a fiar few people who feel less like this is massivley skewed, especially compared to a similar list with a bunch of Tank Commanders and Wyverns.
Nidzrule! wrote: Sure - I think you are saying that playing rock paper scissors lists / one trick ponies which mean that a bad matchup results in a poor game for the other opponent or a poor game for you naturally results in poorer sportsmanship scores because one party never feels "part" of the game / or interacting.
Whereas more balanced lists where there is the chance of an outplay gives the feeling of more interactivity and therefore a better game experience for both sides, no matter the outcome.
Automatically Appended Next Post: That being said the Guilliman plus assback lists - while it wont table you turn 1, does put a dent in the enemy if they get a good alpha strike off.
By the way, not saying that youtubing is the main reason for the winner getting good sports scores - I am trying to understand what he did!
Do you think there is a way to make skew lists (i.e. IG Armoured Company, Baneblade company [in my case], or whathaveyou) fun to play against other than "not play them?"
I'd love to play my superheavy companies fairly routinely, but getting games above 2k is rare, and at 2k it becomes a skew list simply by virtue of existing, which is upsetting.
It depends on how committed you are and how much you are willing to bend your theme a bit. My example was obviously someone wanting to play an all-genestealer army (taking nothing but Purestrains and Patriarchs and Cult Ambushing them in). In theory, any change beyond Patriarchs and Purestrains is, to him, me saying "just don't play them." Obviously you could just walk the genestealers at someone, but then you'd just lose every game and you still wouldn't have any added player agency, just more auto-loses than auto-wins.
The real answer is very simple, it just has to be restated again and again because people who like their skew lists tend to be highly resistant to breaking up their theme - you have to make it a TAC list. If you've got all baneblades, and your opponent took all IG lascannon teams against you, or all Tau fusion suits, you would 100% always lose. Wouldn't even have to be that extreme, any anti armor skew, you'd be done. Reduce the fraction of your list dedicated to just baneblades just enough that you could fight that fight, and you'd have yourself a reasonable TAC list.
Every list has some skew. The Guilliman Assback list mentioned absolutely does - it's got armor skew, with usually only 200-300 points in non-guilliman infantry. But usually (because these people are trying to win tournaments) it's just enough that in the event of an opponent with anti-armor skew, they can fight back with their infantry elements.
It all depends on the rigidity of your theme, and how willing you are to be flexible within the definition. An All-Genestealer All The Time If you Make Me Take Not Genestealer Units You Are Taking Away My Theme list is always going to be super super skew, and is going to definitely be a less interactive experience than, say, a tyranid Vanguard Organism list, or a genestealer-heavy cult list that also has a few tanks and a few neophytes and whatnot.
IG armored company? Super easy to make into an interactive TAC list, add a couple chimera-borne obsec infantry squads, a few scout sentinels, and suddenly you've solved a lot of your auto-lose matchups while also not having as much bonkers turn 1 down-range firepower reducing your auto-wins. Only baneblades? You're going to have a tough time.
But you've heard this. You ask the same questions every time this comes up, and you interpret the answer as "just don't play your theme" every time.
So your answer is ... what exactly?
What does be more flexible mean? After Chapter Approved, I've got 416 points to play with if I want to run a Baneblade company. That 416 points can be anything - Space Marines, Imperial Guard, Skitarii, Adepta Sororitas, Inquisition, Sisters of Silence, Assassins, whatever! I don't really care.
My theme is superheavy tank companies, that's true. And that means 3 tanks, that's also true.
But 2 tanks, or 1 tank, isn't a "superheavy tank company" but is rather "a single or pair of vehicles having gone to support something else" which is not the theme I want.
So is there a way to use 416 points to make a skewy list less skewy? I've considered spending that 416 on a battalion of Imperial Guard, but I think it's still "skew" in the strictest sense. Any thoughts beyond "your theme is bad, and the fact that you consider it your theme and don't want to break it is uncompromising"?
Replace "superheavy tanks" with literally anything else.
My Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army is a fluffy Alpha Legion Khorne Bezerker army, and that means 8 units of 8 khorne bezerkers in a fluff-adherent skullmurderhost. I have 400 points left since I only play 1500 point games with my Skullmurderhost, so what can I spend those on to not make my list a skew list?
The answer is, and has been given to you many, many times: No, there is no way to make 3 Baneblades in a 2000 point list NOT a skew list. There is no physical way to do it. Just like you can't make an Imperial Knight list in 1000 points that isn't a skew list if you want more than 1 knight (because it's not a knight list if it's just one knight!) You have created a box for yourself that is small enough that you cannot make a TAC list out of it. You either need to get a bigger box (play higher points values) or change the box (not 3 baneblades minimum). Those are your options if you are actually invested in making your list not a skew list. You could just be comfortable with the fact that you play a skew list - plenty of people do! I've seen all-dread lists, all bike lists, all drop pod lists, all infantry lists, you name it, it's a common thing for people to do in 40k.
Given that you come onto nearly every thread that tangentially mentions skew lists to ask the same leading questions so you can act defensive about your army setup, I feel like you aren't comfortable with accepting that you play a skew list. I don't know man. I don't get it. Why are you so desperate to get reassurance from random internet people that your army is not a skew list?
Because I don't want it to be a skew list, and I want it to be fun for my opponent as much as me.
Maybe I'm hoping someone will come along with some brilliant solution that can fix it - that's my secret hope.
That or... I dunno. I just want the list to be as fun for my opponents, so I can play it. I don't care if it wins, but I do care if it's thematic.
I'd play higher points - in fact, I'll ask for that this weekend at the club if we're not doing the campaign. Hopefully I can get a bunch of 2500 pt games or even 3k point games going, but people just hate it for some reason, possibly because they feel there's not enough space on the board or they don't own enough models.
416 points can buy a fair amount of IG bodies and change the feel of your list, as long as you deploy them outside the baneblades, I'd certainly ahve fun facing something like this alongside 3 baneblades:
Batallion
Company Commander, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Lord Commissar, Plasma Pistol, Power Axe
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Sword
Infantry Squad, Plasma Gun, Vox Caster, Power Axe
416 points, adds 38 models which can be used to take objectives and/or screen baneblades. If your opponent doesn't have a way to deal with the baneblades the game will still be hard for them, but at least they have something to fight against that is meaningful (Killing oyur troops makes it harder for you to do the things they are helping with).
That is a neat little list! Is that enough of a deviation from "skew" to make it sportsmanly?
Sorry missed this the other day as we cross posted. I'd say that it does for me to play against. You are mostly going to be using none bane blades for objectives and such and it gives me options to engage and play around. It will vary from opponent to opponent I would guess, but I'm sure you would find a fiar few people who feel less like this is massivley skewed, especially compared to a similar list with a bunch of Tank Commanders and Wyverns.
That's a good point.
I think next paycheck I'll snag myself some Cadians and the like, maybe to build towards this type of list. Hopefully it's enough to convince people that I'm earnestly trying to make things interesting!
Lawrence puts out excellent content - his games with Bone are thoroughly entertaining. So much so that it's the first content like that I've ever paid for. I'm happy to support someone that entertaining, it's a good crowd.
Another way to be a good sportsman? If you're going to take a powerful/cheesy list...acknowledge it. If you have a filthy combo or list-option...acknowledge it. You can still have fun, smile, and enjoy the game, but don't pretend you're not doing what you're actually doing.
Preparation goes a long way towards making an impression. Having all the rules you need bookmarked, having dice pools set up before you need to roll, and in general knowing the relevant rules for your army can make you look like an upstanding member of the hobby. Another thing is the impression that you’re playing to have fun, even if your list is cheesier than an ocean of fondue and the only reason you showed up is because you want whatever the prize is.
40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
Elbows wrote: Lawrence puts out excellent content - his games with Bone are thoroughly entertaining. So much so that it's the first content like that I've ever paid for. I'm happy to support someone that entertaining, it's a good crowd.
Another way to be a good sportsman? If you're going to take a powerful/cheesy list...acknowledge it. If you have a filthy combo or list-option...acknowledge it. You can still have fun, smile, and enjoy the game, but don't pretend you're not doing what you're actually doing.
An additional string to this is about expectations. Make sure your opponent's are aware of the type of game you are going to have. If you are after a casual game just using a soft list, say that. Adjust if you can.
1. Be stricter with yourself over rules that with your opponent
i.e. allow someone the grace to go back to a missed phase, but do not assume the right to do so yourself
2. Be courteous at all times
3. Smile, have good grace when things go badly and do not gloat when things go badly for your opponent
4. if an opponent has obviously missed something or is at a disadvantage through misreading a rule point this out in a polite way just as you would if its to their advantage
5. offer the benefit of the doubt in rules ambiguity situations
6. don't dawdle when playing, but don't rush your opponent either.
In short play as you would in general like your opponent to play, even as you try to crush their army utterly - you are trying to defeat them as a player, not as a person
Elbows wrote: Lawrence puts out excellent content - his games with Bone are thoroughly entertaining. So much so that it's the first content like that I've ever paid for. I'm happy to support someone that entertaining, it's a good crowd.
Another way to be a good sportsman? If you're going to take a powerful/cheesy list...acknowledge it. If you have a filthy combo or list-option...acknowledge it. You can still have fun, smile, and enjoy the game, but don't pretend you're not doing what you're actually doing.
You know what, this is a BIG deal. If you turn up being very genuine, and you're a nice a guy. Say we meet at a event, first time we met and you say "Look hey, nice to meet you etc. I'm bringing "X/Y/Z busted list". I know it's very good, but I am here to compete.
This is a big deal, as long as you're genuine and a nice guy I don't mind being crushed, people lose games it happens. When people are all like "Oh I'm here just for the fun" with robote nd 6 ass cannons razorbacks and then try to hide behind a veil, that sucks
A Song of Ice and Fire - House Greyjoy.
AoS - Maggotkin of Nurgle, Ossiarch Bonereapers & Seraphon.
Bloodbowl - Lizardmen.
Horus Heresy - World Eaters.
Marvel Crisis Protocol - Avengers, Brotherhood of Mutants & Cabal.
Middle Earth Strategy Battle game - Rivendell & The Easterlings.
The Ninth Age - Beast Herds & Highborn Elves.
Warhammer 40k - Tyranids.
If you are playing an older player, when they declare shooting phase before they have had their psychic phase. Politely remind them psychic phase first. I started in WHFB 4th/5th ed and 40k 2nd Ed, and still make that mistake despite they are editions, I have played, that are shooting before psychic/magic.
Try not to get too despondent about bad luck (maybe I shouldn't use Chessex dice). My usual casual opponent has pulled me up on this before, and now I make a big effort to curtail this.
Don't make a ping sound after successful saves. Unless its "ping, ping, SPLAT"
If you are not in a tournament or tournament practice game. Try to make sure your list is fluffy as possible. Note that fluffy does not mean weak.
Personal hygeine and habits are the first one. Fight the smelly neckbeard aspect.
The second one is simple: Play a transparent game. That's not to say that you can't fight dirty, but don't do stuff like "forget" inconvenient rules while vigorously enforcing convenient ones. Likewise, don't bring illegible army rosters, use dice for "tokens" when a more distinct counter works, etc. I remember a 7e game vs Grey Knights where we concluded that making special tokens (shield on a base or hammer on a base for Sanctuary/Hammerhand respectively) would be both less confusing and a use for spare bitz.
Finally, don't be a killjoy, a sore winner/loser, or a spoilsport. Don't be that guy.
Craftworld Sciatháin 4180 pts 
