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The main issue with Grey Knights is that having multiple psykers in your army is garbage due to Psychic focus. Yet we were not costed with that in mind, instead being appropriately priced as if Psychic Focus did not exist and our powers were better than they currently are.

If we had 3-4 disciplines to pick from and/or psychic focus didn't exist we would be much better off.


Stuff that has to happen,

Psychic Mastery: If your army is battleforged and composed entirely of Grey Knight models, all Grey Knight models gain this rule. Models with the Psychic Mastery rule ignore the Psychic Focus rule. Grey Knight models may not cast a psychic power on a friendly unit if it has already been effected by that same psychic power this turn.

Grey Knight characters lose the Rites of Banishment special rule and gain,

Litanies of Banishment: When manifesting the Smite psychic power, if the target has the Daemon key word, then the power causes 4 mortal wounds instead of D3.

Grey Knight Librarians gain access to the Librarius discipline in addition to Sanctic.

Grand Masters(including Draigo and Dreadknight GMs) gain,

Lord of War: Battle-forged armies including this model gain 2 command points. If this model is also your Warlord, gain an additional command point.

Brother Captains and Brotherhood Champions(including Stern and Crowe) gain,

Master of War: Battle-forged armies including this model gain 1 command points. If this model is also your Warlord, gain an additional command point.


This would at least make the points we are paying for psychic powers usable all the time, while preventing stuff like 2++ save Dreadknights. Also gaining command points for taking certain HQs would offset the inability to use FoCs to generate command points.

Getting some Primaris Marine units wouldn't hurt either. It kinda doesn't make sense that Grey Knights haven't gotten any. Even if it was a lazy addition like,

Strike, Terminator, Paladin, and Purgation squads gain the following option,

Any model in the squad may be upgraded into a Primaris Marine. Increase W and Attack value by 1. 8 points per model.

Grand Masters, Brother Captains, Chaplains, and Librarians gain the following option,

Upgrade this model to a Primaris Marine. Increase W and Attack value by 1. 15 points.

Ok so I'm headed to a game shortly. And I'm gonna play with a friend who is going to let me play test a lot of this. So I'll let you guys know how it all works out

For what it's worth in .CA terminators went down to 40 without the storm bolter

Ok so I tried a few rules in a ge last night and it went well.

I didn't really use points. We went with a very general amount and just kinda played for the fun of it. So that part will be left out

First off I used smite in this way; librarians get full smite. Grandmasters get d3. And everyone else gets the lowest 1 wound smite

Our psychic onslaught and psybolt was 1 cp. I really liked that one and used it a lot.

Dragio gave me and extra 3 cp. also easy and super helpful.
The liber demonica regenerated cp on 5+. Didn't make a huge difference. But it was nice. I think I regenerated 2 cp out of my 7.

Now the last two are the ones I'm really conflicted about.
The first was I played that I could use each power three times.
It wasn't over powered by any means. If anything it felt right.

But the other was where I'm really on the fence. I have paladins all iron halos for a 4+ inv. And with the three times I could cast sanctuary that meant my two squads had a 3+ inv.
Now right off the batt on paper it seems way over powered. But I'm reminded that custodes are tougher, have the same save, and are cheaper. So with that in mind it doesn't seem all that bad. Plus to get that great save. I'm having to spend a lot of my psychic ability on it. Taking away from me being able to smite.
And even with it on. I lost a full squad of Paladins. (Who were both backed up by apothecaries.) so while it might seem like to much. Honestly I think it's a good trade. Smaller elite armies are having a hard time because they can still be one shoted by heavy weapons. But can only output a small amount of damage compared to cheaper units. This way while we can't put out as much damage. We can do more of what we are meant to do and soak up large amounts. Being the anvil to the hammer so to speak.
With the three castings of sanctuary we could also have larger squads of regular terminators with 4+. Making them much more survivable.

Lastly I also tired out the made up power the shrouding. (-1 to hit past 12). I thought this would be over powered as well. But I only was even able to cast it once or twice. And for the most part it just made sure my Paladins that just teleported in didn't get shot to nothing right away. I like the power a lot.

Over all I liked all the changes and nothing felt like it was over powered. Especially since with out these rule changes I have been out smited by orks. And has whole paladin squads vaporized by ork shooting. Both really shouldn't happen.

I think that the biggest glaring mistakes with GK are overpricing (for what they can do) and gimped Librarians.

Why is the chapter with the best psychics they one with the crappiest Librarians? At the very least Librarians should be able to use full-on smite.

There is also massive overpricing in units and wargear. Terminators need to go down another 3 or 4 points. Strike squads need to go down 1. Also special weapons need a 20% reduction, including weapons for the dreadknight.

I'd also maybe like an extra attack on power armor units, or alternatively, just one extra on the Sergeant.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
What do people think about giving GK access to a couple more units from the SM codex? Contemptor dreads come to mind. Perhaps a force relic blade?

Fixes for the Grey Knights. Most of their issues is they are mostly over costed (points and command points).
Here is my opinion on each unit and what is good or bad about it. I will also talk warlord traits/strategems/powers/relics. If all these corrections were made, I think it would create an overpowered codex, but a few of these would help!

Overall Glaring issues are A.) for our points costs we are not durable enough -or- B.) For our points costs we are not alpha strikey enough.

Grey Knight Traits
Daemon Hunters – Keep as is.
Rites of Banishment - This is hamstringing Grey Knights into very select builds right now. I get this being on most of the troops (keep that) but the HQ should have normal smite that does 3 mortals (6 on doubles) v demons. This may be wishlisting, but it would bring them more in line.
Special Weapons – Melee weapons are fine.
Special guns – Flamer is over costed. Psilencer is good. Psycannon could be brought down a few points or brought up in power. Right now, the psilencer is more points efficient than the other guns at almost every job (with small exceptions here n there).

Warlord traits. I find them all to be MEH except first into the fray.
Demon slayer - meh, unless against demons. In tournaments or scenarios where you can pick your trait each game, then this works well. Still it is warlord only… This should be an aura.
Hammer of Righteousness – Again, this should be an aura. We are too elite for just the warlord to do the lifting.
Unyielding anvil – I don’t know about anyone else, I never fail morale tests with my knights. Maybe make this into something like “aura, +1 to casting powers”
First into fray – Leave as is.
Nemesis Lord – Weaker version of #2…. Replace with something else. Completely different. Maybe something that helps with command point management or give a chance to return command points like so many armies are receiving? We cannot generate CPs very easily which is a huge issue right now.
Lore Master – Not useful because of the rule of 1. Maybe if this made the warlord ignore the rule of 1 for psychic powers? Then it would be really nice.

Stratagems… What the heck GW. Most are over costed for what they do! Ill only talk about a few here.
Honour the chapter - reduce to 2 CP. We don’t have the CP to swing 3.
Aegis – reduce to 1 CP or more it more likely to deny. Nothing like blowing 1/3 of my CP on this.
Both psybolt ammo and psychic onslaught need to be 1 CP. It’s a good strategm, but not for 2 CP. Too expensive.
Finest hour - again too expensive.
Heed the Prognisticars – make 1 CP. Other books out there have similar ones for 1 CP. Make ours 1 CP.

Relics of TITAN – not much useful here either.
Fury of Deimos – Cool gun! I really like this one. Just never want to give up CP for it (seeing a trend here? We need CP help)
Destroyer of Crysyllix – I find use if I bring a paladin squad to put on the paragon, Can really wreck big things. I would say an HQ, but all the HQs I bring cant use it… more later. This gems problem isn’t the hammer, but it doesn’t have a good body.
Banner of refining flame – issue with this is the same with the purifier’s ability. Too short range. Also, the bodies it goes on are too expensive to field.
Soul Glaive – I rock this on a Paladin Paragon sometimes. Again its problem is a lack of a good body to equip it to.
Domina Liber Daemonica – Change this to something that affects the invul save or make an aura boosting our grey knights v demons. -1L is meh.
Cuirass of Sacrifice - Great! This is about the only one I take. Again though… HQs that can use this are boxed out by better solutions.

Sanctic Discipline
I actually really like our powers. Purge Soul is meh too much in the game is strong against it. Maybe let me wound on a tie? Not really upset about this. I don’t use it.

Units
Draigo – He is okay for what he does, however, in an already expensive codex, swinging his points is hard. He is also really outshined right now by Grandmaster Dreadknights (as is every other HQ). Take his mandatory warlord trait away and he will be more useful. In fact take away all mandatory warlord traits.
Voldus – I really like this guy right now. He struggles a little bit from the rule of 1. If loremaster (like I proposed) ignored the rule of 1 he would be really good. Honestly if he didn’t change I would be happy.
Grandmaster – outshined by other options. Voldus blows him out of the water with powers and his hammer. Reduction in points?
Grand Master in Dreadknight – This guy is really good. He is inbalanced (compared to our codex) and well balanced (to the rest of Warhammer 40k). Leave as is. Until the rest of the codex is fixed I will continue to play Codex: Dreadknight (Grandmaster edition)
Castellan Crowe – For petes sake give this guy a nemesis force weapon. He can protect a demon sword while wielding a NFW. Give him a real sword. Please. PLEASE. PPPLLLEEEEAAASSSSEEEEE!!!!! Best swordsman in the imperium… has the worst sword in the imperium. Chainswords are better than this.
Brother Captains – Their aura is the issue here. It doesn’t do much. We have no problems getting in range of smite. Only useful if combo’d with a bunch of purifiers. Can this aura make smite better (2 damage maybe)? It would be another idea to fix the smite problems. Or make it so we reroll wounds like a lieutenant.
Stern – I like Stern… just not the fact that he is still a brother Captain. Fix the problems with Brother Captain and you fix stern.
Librarian – Beef up his smite? Reduce points? Remove Rule of 1. Do Loremaster fix as stated above. The issues with this model is he is a psyker in a codex of psykers and rule of 1 hamstrings him.
Techmarine – Fine
Chaplin – Outshined by other rerolls to hit auras. Not really useful to the grey knights. Needs something special to set him apart.
Brotherhood champion – I really like this guy, leave as is. Just wish Crowe was as good as he is…
Terminator Squad – Still too expensive for what they do. 35 points would make them strong w/o being overpowered. They don’t have the staying power. The recent points adjustment wasn’t enough.
Strike squad – Fine
Apothecary – Bring down a few points. Not worth they points bump. Only really good if following around a grand master (not in a DK) or paladins.
Ancient – Way to expensive. -20 points and you have a better unit.
Paladin Squad – They should be T5 or less points. They are supposed to be on par with the Custodies.
Paladin Ancient – See other ancient
Purifier Squad – 2 things. Need +1 attack or make their smite 6” instead of 3”. (second option would fix the brother captain as well)
Dreadnoughts – all are decent and inline with main codex. Again, issue with them is Rule of 1. So what if they can all cast a 12” smite… I wont use it. But astra Aim is great!! If more than one could cast it.
Interceptor squad – fine. I do miss the days they could shunt and flamer something. Was an awesome power.
Purgation Squad – Fine in the right build. Outshined by strikesquads.
Nemesis Dreadknight – Outshined by Grandmaster in NDK. Bring down the cost of the heavy incinerator and this guy becomes more viable.
Land Raiders – Same issues as other land raiders.
Razorbacks – Just became too expensive in our codex thanks to their points nerf because of Robute Gulliman Nerfs. They were not overpowered in our dex.
Rhino – Never use em.
Stormhawk interceptor/stormtalon– Does anyone use these in the grey knights? Our codex is already too expensive to use these when we already struggle with needing boots on the ground.
Stormraven – Has its uses… however, very very vulnerable to the alpha plasma strike. Please reduce the plasma cannon cost. WAY too expensive. Should be equal in cost the the plasma sponsons of a leman russ (30pts total). Assault cannon is now too expensive. Most of the guns on this thing are too expensive for it. Please fix this issue.

There is my review of fixes unit by unit & rule by rule.

How do you think GK would do if they were allowed to cast the same psychic power twice per army per turn?

 cuda1179 wrote:
How do you think GK would do if they were allowed to cast the same psychic power twice per army per turn?

Better. 2x astral, 2x hammerhand, 2x sanctuary would be awesome

What about three times? That's what I'm thinking about sending to GW in my email.

That and im really debating doing 4+ on Paladins. That way with sanctuary they have 3+ inv. That would make them compete with custodes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also what if sanctuary was an aura? Like +1 inv for everyone within 6" of caster? I haven't really play tested the idea but I just thought it might be interesting

I would like to see us go back to an "all deepstrike" army more than I would like to see the psychic phase changed. I think it's a slippery slope given there are more psychically attuned armies than ours (fluffwise) and our powers are somewhat medicore. Something I would like to see in the psychic phase though is changing Vortex to have more range (say 18") and be targetable, rather than only hitting the closest model. It makes the power almost worthless if your opponent has any kind of screen.

Spartan117xyz wrote:
What about three times? That's what I'm thinking about sending to GW in my email.

That and im really debating doing 4+ on Paladins. That way with sanctuary they have 3+ inv. That would make them compete with custodes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh also what if sanctuary was an aura? Like +1 inv for everyone within 6" of caster? I haven't really play tested the idea but I just thought it might be interesting

I think that 2 times would be ok. 3 times could be too much. It would mean that you will gate one whole detachment per turn(3 strike squads I guess). Making your alpha strike stronger and making the whole thing a no brainer.
2 times will force you to make decisions.

But what came to mind was: maybe fix 2 problems with one rule?
Give the Librarian an aura that says "if your army is battleforged: all GK units in 6" range around this model can use their psychic powers 2 times per turn (but on different targets).
Could work and could be more in line with Aurahammer 40k.

4++on Paladins: maybe make it a buyable option? Iron Halo (or however you will name it, Paladin Aegis..I don't know) for 1-3 points per model.
But I would be ok with a free halo.

Sanctuary as an aura: would most likely mean that your enemy will try to target the caster. =D
Which means that GMNDK shouldn't bother with sanctuary anymore, but Voldus will cast it every turn and stay safe.
But I think this would be too strong. The game (at least for Space Marines) is focusing so hard on 6" bubbles already that it would just reinforce that style of play because adding such a strong aura to the mix will result in a lot of salt. (I know this contradicts my Librarian Aura up there, but I consider +1 invul aura as stronger as double cast aura)

And casting sanctuary 2x per turn would result in more gameplay options.
Your enemy will be able to deny it 2 times (on the other hand you will be able to cast it a second time, if your enemy has denied the first one)


I am very curious about the final content of your email!

With blood angels now having army wide hammer hand as their chapter tactics and the ability to gate of infinity (with cp, but 100% success) I am not upset about asking to for multiple casts of powers.

Give GK a stratagem that let's them have an enemy character possessed by a Daemon.

Now that we know GW is willing to do really cool things like that I actually demand it of them! Would be a nice throwback to the Daemonhunters codex.

How about you could use a power more than once but it was dependent on army construction?

For example if you field three librarians you can use each power twice? Or at least hammer hand and sanctuary twice each turn. Would also be a reason to take libraians and demonstrates their psychic might well in the battlefield.

Would hopefully go some way to keep them balanced across multiple point ranges. Twice per turn in lower point games could quickly become OP. IMO.

Fantome wrote:
Twice per turn in lower point games could quickly become OP. IMO.

I don't see that.
GK have a really hard time in low point game already.

We generally have a low model count. In lower point games we have even less models. This equals to less possibilities to cast powers, which regulates the double casting in itself.

Lower point games does in fact mean that we can use our powers optimally right now without any changes. Having 3-8 Units in low points games and only 6 different powers (+smite) would generally allow GK to use every power once and maybe use 1-2 smites because you didn't needed astral aim that turn.

These 2 smites could now be something more useful, sure. But it wouldn't get out of hand, just because it could be another hammerhand and sanctuary.

In a 1000 point game a GK player would have about 4 units. If you made it so any psychic power could be cast twice, but not by the same psycher, it would hardly be OP.

Yeah it's kinda weird, everyone thinks of we have a good way to cast powers we will be op. When even with our nerfed smite, and a ton of units. We can only put out 6 ish mortal wounds.
I was playing my friend who plays orks, and he was pumping out 6-9 mortal wounds with only three weird boys. They would roll full smite every now and again and blow my guys away.
It's pretty dumb to get out played with psychic powers from an army that isn't even supposed to be good at it. When it's supposed to be our strength.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I would like to see us go back to an "all deepstrike" army more than I would like to see the psychic phase changed. I think it's a slippery slope given there are more psychically attuned armies than ours (fluffwise) and our powers are somewhat medicore. Something I would like to see in the psychic phase though is changing Vortex to have more range (say 18") and be targetable, rather than only hitting the closest model. It makes the power almost worthless if your opponent has any kind of screen.

Dunno about that.

Speaking as a CSM player. The GK Codex doesn't seem particularly weak to me, but I don't see deepstrike as a way to increase the effectiveness of the army.

I play an unconventional CSM list that features 19 lascannons carried by actual CSMs and Predators. It's been effective in most games against GK armies, which usually feature a couple Dreadknights with some assortment of Purifier / Purgation squads and Razorbacks.

The reason I don't think more deepstrike would be effective is simple: good bubblewrap beats good assaults. Opponents usually use Gate of Infinity to move everything up the board and smite + assault in the first couple rounds, which is similar to deepstrike. While they are smiting / assaulting Cultists, they are also losing Razorbacks & Dreadknights because they lack the massed firepower for dealing with threats beyond mid-range.

My take is more flyers would make GK stronger.

You're right. But then we aren't really grey Knights. You could give us lots of things that would make us good but would take away from our flavor.

With blood angels now having army wide hammer hand as their chapter tactics and the ability to gate of infinity (with cp, but 100% success) I am not upset about asking to for multiple casts of powers.

They released a FAQ

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_grey_knights_en-1-1.pdf

I think it’s a good start( sanctuary as a bubble seems good)

The Custodian wrote:
They released a FAQ

I think it’s a good start( sanctuary as a bubble seems good)

which bubble bru? Like i see its "...pick a unit..." dont see any bubble :-(
but a good idea, a bubble in 6 inches would be cool

My bad for misreading
Then it’s just the usual corrections .
I was so hopeful

The Custodian wrote:
My bad for misreading
Then it’s just the usual corrections .
I was so hopeful

pity, have already started to hope xD

The Custodian wrote:
They released a FAQ

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_grey_knights_en-1-1.pdf

I think it’s a good start( sanctuary as a bubble seems good)

That's the FAQ that came out just after the codex came out. Nothing cosmic :(

//Break break//

Was looking at custodes... They are everything I want my paladins to be. Compared to paladins (for 3 less points) they have +1 move, +1 str, +1 toughness, +1 weapon skill, their CC weapon is the combination of NFW sword + halberd, and an ap -1 bolter... Drawbacks are: rapid fire 1 instead of 2 and no baby smite or gate of infinity. Since they swing at str 6 they don't really need hammer hand.

C'mon tell me how this is balanced.

Custode should be more powerful ( well at least they should have better war gear ) . The problem is that they are cheaper,
Paladins should be almost on their level (at least point wise).
So we need a point discount or a power up(better discount)

The Custodian wrote:
Custode should be more powerful ( well at least they should have better war gear ) . The problem is that they are cheaper,
Paladins should be almost on their level (at least point wise).
So we need a point discount or a power up(better discount)

I agree, and because of this I would like to see paladins to be about 45-48 points. Then termies be 35-38 pts for balance. Custodes are the best of the best and should reflect it in stats, war gear and points. Therefore, paladins should be cheaper. If paladins are to remain at their current points then they need to be equal in everyway to custodes + being psykers (which is not what I want).

Looking at fluff (and I have back to the daemonhunters codex), what are some things have have historically been "grey knight" things that give our army flavor? And how would you incorporate them into a GK codex (strategmes, army-wide rules, etc)? These can be both special rules/options as well as army characteristics that were common because of how GK were played. My contributions below:

Daemonhunters Codex:
Daemonic infestation - GK are so good that nurglings, dogs, and other minor daemon units come back after they die to offest GK's anti-daemon abilities. Additionally, anyone playing against GK can take daemonic units in their army for a points cost (using some random stat generation). Some kind of bonus to daemons (though they really don't need it at the moment) would enable us to retain those abilities while getting better against other armies for the same points.
Psybolt ammo/psycannons - you can't take invulnerable saves against these. Ultimately the "psychic gun" became the psilencer...maybe make it ignore invuls, turning into a lesser daemon mulching gun.
Aegis - in the begining we werent all casting powers, but we could resist them. Now that every unit is a psyker, this is covered
Deep strike - every unit had it innately.
Fearless - We fight daemons, everyone is immune to morale.
The Shrouding - Roll 3D6x3 before you shoot at GK, that is your range in inches. This went away in later codecies but would be a fantastic way to respresent GK rapidly appearing on the battlefield and give us some protection from alpha strikes. Probably a -1 to hit outside a given range in this edition (maybe 18 or 24" to better reflect the old rule and keep it from being OP).
Inquisition - We could take the Ordo Malleus in our army. We had this up through 6th edition, it was a nice way to give the army variety while keeping it "anti-daemon" themed. We had a bunch of anti-psyker gear that we could give to any character. Nowadays, being able to take henchmen or inquisitorial stormtroopers would be a fantastic way to broaden our options without having to buy another codex or use imperial soup. We also had the assasins...
Orbital Strike - This was a heavy support choice; you keyed it to a specific piece of terrain and it fired (always scattered, etc) every shooting phase. Being able to take these would give us a form of long-range fire support (albeit an inaccurate and risky one) that we could take. Obviously we have strategems now, but we are the inquisition...we should be able to have more; I'd like to bring them back as heavy support (or maybe flyers?).

5th/6th Edition Codex:
Brotherhoood of psykers - We became the first real users of this rule. Everyone can now not only deny, but also cast powers (though these are less offensive than defensive in nature...ala Warp Quake).
The Aegis - it's still harder to cast powers on us.
Nemesis Force Weapons - Everyone has a force weapon now. Swords, halberds, hammers, and falchions all do different things. Halberds basically guarantee you get to strike first in combat.
We still have orbital strikes (now a wargear item), deep strikes, Inquisition, and the most elite infantry in the game. We gained special characters and dreadknights. Psybolt (and psyflame) ammo changed to a 20 pt upgrade per squad that gave their bolters +1 strength.

7th Edition Codex:
We can now deepstrike our entire army turn 1 with a formation (back when everyone elsecould start on turn 2), but we lost the inquisition and assasins. We can cast the santic discipline without the risks other people have.

Having recently picked up the 8th rulebook and codex and playing my first 8th ED games with GK I can quickly see the biggest issues.

Hammerhand and sanctuary are cornerstones of the GKs and should not be limited to 1 per turn, remove psychic focus for these powers or a 3 per turn limit would probably be ok, perhaps 3 per detachment to scale for larger games.

Terminators are over-costed and should be about 10 points per model less, paladins should be about where terminators are in terms of points. (Or keep the points about the same and make them T5, I've always believed all terminators should be T5 anyway).

Falchions are better in most situations, bump them to 2 points, halbreds to 1, swords can stay where they are.

Heavy weapon upgrades are ridiculously over-costed for their effectiveness. half the cost of Psycannons and Incinerators, 7ppm for PA and 10ppm for TA is about the right spot. I'd slightly drop the cost of heavy weapons on NDKs as well.

Apothecary could do with a slight points drop, they aren't all that effective in my experience, while tech marine, ancient & chaplain need major point reductions. Librarian should get full smite.

As for stratagems, psychic onslaught and psybolt should be 1CP, I don't ming playing with 6-7 CP, but characters that provide bonus CP or relics that recycle CP would be nice for sure.

With just those changes, I think you'd have quite a playable codex, one where you may actually want to take some of the toys rather than spamming naked strikes and interceptors armed with falchions.

I actually think there should no longer be different costs for power armor and terminator special weapons. Since terminators no longer ignore moving and shooting penalties...