Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

ShaunyP wrote:

Spoiler:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.

get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.

I wouldn't call it "super competitive".

You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.


I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.


Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.



You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback

As a starting place.

Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.

I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?

I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!

Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?

You convert lieutenants yourself, it's one of the easier things to do.

I would recommend a Predator if you like it. My friend has a quad-las predator that he almost swears by, and at least in his list it performs well. My personal opinion is that they're a solid unit, but not astoundingly above average. As far as loadouts go, I'd go for either Autocannon/Lascannons or Quad Las.

I would not recommend Centurions. My varieties of Power Armor are Sisters first and Space Wolves second, so I have no Centurions, but none of the SM players I know field them, and the one time I saw them fielded they definitely didn't perform.



As far as Black Templars goes:
1: I would not exchange my boltguns for chainswords. Tacticals, which Crusaders still are at heart are a average shooting unit that you'd be turning into a pretty bad CQC unit.
2: Righteous Zeal can be very powerfully leveraged using Deep Striking units to get off a massed turn-1 charge. I would strongly consider Vanguard Veterans in this capacity, and it can make Terminators good. Space Marines are fairly well situated to leverage that into a fairly solid battle plan. Start with a powerful shooting firebase that can pick off critical targets, and bring in your CQC troops from reserve to tie down and clean up the rest.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You also shouldn’t play something aggressively sub-optimal.

Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.

I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.

Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.

You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.

I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.

It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.


Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.


I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

Spoiler:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.

get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.

I wouldn't call it "super competitive".

You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.


I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.


Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.



You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback

As a starting place.

Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.

I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?

I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!

Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?

You convert lieutenants yourself, it's one of the easier things to do.

I would recommend a Predator if you like it. My friend has a quad-las predator that he almost swears by, and at least in his list it performs well. My personal opinion is that they're a solid unit, but not astoundingly above average. As far as loadouts go, I'd go for either Autocannon/Lascannons or Quad Las.

I would not recommend Centurions. My varieties of Power Armor are Sisters first and Space Wolves second, so I have no Centurions, but none of the SM players I know field them, and the one time I saw them fielded they definitely didn't perform.



As far as Black Templars goes:
1: I would not exchange my boltguns for chainswords. Tacticals, which Crusaders still are at heart are a average shooting unit that you'd be turning into a pretty bad CQC unit.
2: Righteous Zeal can be very powerfully leveraged using Deep Striking units to get off a massed turn-1 charge. I would strongly consider Vanguard Veterans in this capacity, and it can make Terminators good. Space Marines are fairly well situated to leverage that into a fairly solid battle plan. Start with a powerful shooting firebase that can pick off critical targets, and bring in your CQC troops from reserve to tie down and clean up the rest.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You also shouldn’t play something aggressively sub-optimal.

Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.

I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.

Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.

You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.

I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.

It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.


Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.


I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.

Firstly, what’s a fluffy list, and fluffy units etc?

So you think I should start off shooty? Can I keep my captain melee, or would that be a bad idea (even if he’s got a jump pack)?
Also how would you recommend I set up my tacticals? In 5s or 10s? Min/max them by giving one a heavy Bolter or something, or have one take a special/heavy and upgrade the seargent with something sexy?

A fluffy list is one that fits with the methods and character of the army according to the lore. So an Ultramarines gunlineis actually kind of a fluffy list, whereas a Black Templars gunline would not be.

If you want a much easier time with vanilla Space Marines, you should consider going shooty instead of doing a close combat army. It's going to take a much better understanding of the game to be successful with a close combat SM list. That being said, you should really do what you want to do. Just keep putting thought and planning into it so you don't waste your time and money.

A lot of people would run tactical squads as MSU with 5 dudes, one having a missile launcher or lascannon and the sergeant having a combi-weapon. However, if you want to do a gunline army it would serve you better to run as many devastator squads as possible and keep TAC squads to a minimum or use scouts instead. TACs are a jack of all trades, master of none type unit that will not excel at any one type of combat. If you're equipping your TAC squads with long-range weaponry then giving your sergeants close combat weapons is kind of a waste, but independent characters can make good harassment and assault units if you equip them with close combat units and pick your charges selectively.

If you really want to do a close combat army, Chaos factions are typically better equipped for it, but you should be able to pull it off with chapters like Black Templar, Blood Angels and Space Wolves. If you want to do a shooty army then Ultramarines are an obvious choice especially if you choose to take Guilliman.

ShaunyP wrote:

Spoiler:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Crunch-wise, 4x5 is going to be better.

Starting the game? At least 1x10, probably 2x10.

Comes down to how competitive you are, really. But shifting from 2x10 to 4x5 isn't exactly rocket surgery.

Yeah its why it ultimately doesn't matter that much.

get whatever kit looks nice. make it your own. then IF you feel like jumping into the hyperbolic rabbit hole that is super competitive war hammer then you can adjust from there.

I wouldn't call it "super competitive".

You also shouldn't play something aggressively sub-optimal. It's no fun to lose, and you will become demoralized and quit. You don't have to play the nastiest of the nasty netlists, but you also definitely should not play something so astoundingly bad that you have no chance of victory.


I would, in general recommend starting with a fairly strong core, because it provides a solid foundation that you can add what you want to without extreme concern for efficiency. A strong core can take a weak add-on unit and remain decent, but if you have a sub-optimal starting core, expanding to larger games will be more difficult and restrictive.


Not that 1x10 vs 2x5 is a big deal in terms of competitiveness. I'd be combat-squadding them anyway, and the question at hand is if you'd rather have your second weapon be Heavy or a Special weapon.



You may want to consider:
Captain
Lieutenant
5x Tactical
5x Tactical
Razorback

As a starting place.

Thanks for the tip. I’ve definitely planned for a captain to be my chapter master.

I thought about having 2 lieutenants to fight with the chapter master, but could start with one. My question is what model do lieutenants use? Captain?

I was aware of splitting tac marines into 5s to take advantage of having 2 sergeants and 2 special/heavys. The issue there would be what to take!

Would you definitely recommend a predator, or would a bulky elite like a Dreadnought or squad of terminators or centurions do just as well?

You convert lieutenants yourself, it's one of the easier things to do.

I would recommend a Predator if you like it. My friend has a quad-las predator that he almost swears by, and at least in his list it performs well. My personal opinion is that they're a solid unit, but not astoundingly above average. As far as loadouts go, I'd go for either Autocannon/Lascannons or Quad Las.

I would not recommend Centurions. My varieties of Power Armor are Sisters first and Space Wolves second, so I have no Centurions, but none of the SM players I know field them, and the one time I saw them fielded they definitely didn't perform.



As far as Black Templars goes:
1: I would not exchange my boltguns for chainswords. Tacticals, which Crusaders still are at heart are a average shooting unit that you'd be turning into a pretty bad CQC unit.
2: Righteous Zeal can be very powerfully leveraged using Deep Striking units to get off a massed turn-1 charge. I would strongly consider Vanguard Veterans in this capacity, and it can make Terminators good. Space Marines are fairly well situated to leverage that into a fairly solid battle plan. Start with a powerful shooting firebase that can pick off critical targets, and bring in your CQC troops from reserve to tie down and clean up the rest.

kombatwombat wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
You also shouldn’t play something aggressively sub-optimal.

Without making this personal, my advice when starting out is to ignore anyone and everyone who thinks like this.

I don’t care how ‘optimal’ your list is. In your first few games I could take a ‘for-fun’ list and beat you like a red-headed step-child if I felt the need. And I’m not a stand-out tactical mastermind by any stretch of the imagination. The simple fact is that no matter how deep you dive into the world of super-competitive lists, you won’t succeed until, like anything, you master the basics of the game. More to the point, taking a super-optimised list when you’re starting out will earn you labels like ‘netlister’, ‘win at all cost’ and ‘that fething guy’, and will encourage people to stomp on you. It’s like being the guy who went out and bought Olympic-level equipment for his first tennis match. He still isn’t going to win and his opponent will probably enjoy teaching him a lesson.

Instead, take things you like. You like Land Speeders? Go out and buy one. Or two. Enjoy building and painting a model you like. Take it to a game, cheer when it kills something, lament when it dies and laugh when it explodes and kills your opponent’s Warlord. People on this forum - and most of the internet sadly - seem to lose sight of the fun that is this hobby in the pursuit of mathammer and winning. I would counsel you to not even think the words ‘efficient’ or ‘optimised’ for your first year in the hobby. Make an army of things you love, and learn how to use them effectively. If you have a bad losing streak and want to win more games, then turn to the internet for advice. It’s much easier to add a hyper-efficient unit to an army you love and make it competitive than it is to try and tack on a unit you like to try and force yourself to enjoy an army you have no love of. Put simply, it’s easier to buy competitiveness than it is to buy love.

You’re going to shed a lot of blood, sweat and tears in this hobby, and it’s going to take time to become a master at it. Make the journey fun and you’ll have a blast. Only care about the destination and you’ll have a long, bitter slog.

I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.

It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.


Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.


I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.

Firstly, what’s a fluffy list, and fluffy units etc?

So you think I should start off shooty? Can I keep my captain melee, or would that be a bad idea (even if he’s got a jump pack)?
Also how would you recommend I set up my tacticals? In 5s or 10s? Min/max them by giving one a heavy Bolter or something, or have one take a special/heavy and upgrade the seargent with something sexy?

A fluffy list is as Luciferian said, lore compliant. However, everybody has a lot of different perceptions as to what is lore compliant, and I generally see it used as a term used for people to absolve themselves of their defeat ["You won because my list was fluffy and yours was cheesy."]. There seems to be a conception that fluffy lists must be bad and that good lists cannot be fluffy, though this conception is blatantly untrue.


With regards to shooty vs CQC: Early CQC is an incredibly valuable tool for any army to be able to do. Most units in CQC cannot shoot and will have to fall back, so going into CQC with strong shooting units can neutralize them for a turn without having to commit heavy firepower to them, freeing up your hard-hitting units to take out other targets. This is most valuable against vehicles, which would otherwise require a substantial investment of effort to destroy.

Some armies can pull off being an entirely melee army. Most of these armies rely on deep strike [rules that allow a unit to be set up more than 9" from the enemy at the end of the movement phase] to bring a lot of very hard hitting melee units across the board on turn 1. Armies that are best at this have easy access to deep strike capable melee troops and access to the means to make a 9" charge, usually re-rolls. Space Marines can do with using the Black Templars chapter tactic, and can do it fairly well, if this is something you want to do.


Space Marines are inherently more shooty than they are stabby. However, they are not as shooty as full shooting forces, like the Imperial Guard, so you're probably not going to win a pure gun duel with a list of equivalent efficiency. It is my opinion that it would be wise to leverage the Space Marine's versatility to win, and use your CQC units in conjunction with your shooting units to form a greater whole.

While Space Marines can gain a lot of tactical power from their CQC troops, most of their killing power is in ranged units, and it's important to keep that in mind.


That is not to say it's impossible to be a full gunline or a full mass melee list. Ultramarines make a very strong gunline, and Black Templars can pull of a mass melee list quite well.




As for setting up Tacticals, I would personally use 5 Tacticals with an antitank heavy weapon. 5 guys with a Lascannon or Missile Launcher can take up a safe position in ruins and augment the fire of your real antitank units, and can use their boltguns to augment the power of stronger anti-infantry units. Tacitcals are your key scoring units, and can be hard to shift once they've captured a position, but they're far from your core hitting power.

If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.

Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.

So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.

Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.

Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.

The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.

Lol so many varying opinions. I’m going with Space Marines as I like the look of them and they seem to be a jack of all trades. Not excelling at anything, but not terrible at anything. I was interested in the Tau, but they’re so shooty, melee units would knits cut them up if they strike after the movement phase. Plus they’re damn commies lol! Tyranids are cool, but I really wanted a human army, no monsters or weird deformities. If what you say is true and Space Marines are difficult to play, I’d rather throw myself in the deep end and push myself.

ShaunyP wrote:
Lol so many varying opinions. I’m going with Space Marines as I like the look of them and they seem to be a jack of all trades. Not excelling at anything, but not terrible at anything. I was interested in the Tau, but they’re so shooty, melee units would knits cut them up if they strike after the movement phase. Plus they’re damn commies lol! Tyranids are cool, but I really wanted a human army, no monsters or weird deformities. If what you say is true and Space Marines are difficult to play, I’d rather throw myself in the deep end and push myself.

Most of us are saying pretty much the same thing. Marines are kind of a jack of all trades army, but that means they'll always struggle against more specialized lists. They are pretty weak in close combat, and like Marmatag said, they are really only good at shooting if you make a list which capitalizes heavily on rerolls. Which basically means an Ultramarines Guilliman gunline with assbacks and devastators. You can make a good, take all comers list with vanilla Marines, but you're not going to be presented with a plethora of ways to get there.

All that being said, it's up to you. Aesthetics and fluff are just as important as viability for many people, if not more so.

I just wish you'd hear the call of Chaos

Also, keep in mind that the rules for modeling and painting are not as restrictive as the actual rules of the game. You could make yourself a heresy-era Chaos army that looked more like vanilla marines, for example.

 Luciferian wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:
Lol so many varying opinions. I’m going with Space Marines as I like the look of them and they seem to be a jack of all trades. Not excelling at anything, but not terrible at anything. I was interested in the Tau, but they’re so shooty, melee units would knits cut them up if they strike after the movement phase. Plus they’re damn commies lol! Tyranids are cool, but I really wanted a human army, no monsters or weird deformities. If what you say is true and Space Marines are difficult to play, I’d rather throw myself in the deep end and push myself.

Most of us are saying pretty much the same thing. Marines are kind of a jack of all trades army, but that means they'll always struggle against more specialized lists. They are pretty weak in close combat, and like Marmatag said, they are really only good at shooting if you make a list which capitalizes heavily on rerolls. Which basically means an Ultramarines Guilliman gunline with assbacks and devastators. You can make a good, take all comers list with vanilla Marines, but you're not going to be presented with a plethora of ways to get there.

All that being said, it's up to you. Aesthetics and fluff are just as important as viability for many people, if not more so.

I just wish you'd hear the call of Chaos

Chaos is marmite for me, I love the look of some units, but hate the look of others! I’ve already came up with a brief setting for my chapter and chaos wouldn’t fit. I think I’m going for an Astartes codex army, perhaps with the same views as... can’t remember the chapter; loyal to the emperor, unloyal to the imperium.

Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.

Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.

So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.

Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.

Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.

The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.

You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.

Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.

I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.

Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.

So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.

Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.

Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.

The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.

You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.

Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.

I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.

Locking shooting? And i want a melee Captain so later I can buy lieutenants and vanguards, maybe some assaults and termies to assist at the front line with re-rolls and the like. By that time I could have cheaper captains at the rear supporting tacticals, heavies and vehicles with re-rolls. Is that solid?

She means tying up units that would otherwise be shooting you in melee combat.

ShaunyP wrote:

Spoiler:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.

Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.

So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.

Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.

Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.

The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.

You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.

Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.

I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.

Locking shooting? And i want a melee Captain so later I can buy lieutenants and vanguards, maybe some assaults and termies to assist at the front line with re-rolls and the like. By that time I could have cheaper captains at the rear supporting tacticals, heavies and vehicles with re-rolls. Is that solid?

As I said earlier, a unit with enemy models within 1" can only shoot with pistols. Most units that fall back during the movement phase cannot shoot during the shooting phase. Many units, tanks in particular, take several times their cost in firepower to eliminate, but can be "turned off" for far less by getting a model within 1" of it. This is very valuable. If you're in a straight up gun battle with the IG, you're going to lose, but if an 80 point Vanguard squad can stop a 180 point Leman Russ tank [or multiple if you're clever] from shooting during the first few turns, you can tip the balance in your favor. It's better to brave the overwatch of a Leman Russ Punisher than it is to take it's full might in the shooting phase!

Of course, it's not unbeatable. That's why shooting armies have "screens", cheap units that stand between their valuable units and enemy assault units, to drive back the deep strike perimeter and give them a turn or two to shoot down your CQC troops.

There are actually a lot of tactical uses for limited CQC commitment in otherwise shooting-centric lists. I think of CQC as a mean to enhance my shooting units' performance and control what my opponent can do on his turn, not really as a means to kill enemy units.


A CQC captain with a Jump Pack is quite good for supporting Vanguards [and Terminators]. Keep him cheap, though.

Assault Marines [Skyclaws] are a unit that I just don't like. It is my opinion that, if you're going to include Assault Marines, you should instead use Vanguard Veterans. This is because Vanguards get +1 attack base and can wield twin pistols, meaning they have the same CQC effectiveness but also get an extra shot at 12" for 2 points more per model. They can also equip fancy weapons, if you desire them.




The people who tell you Space Marines are challenging aren't wrong, but don't be discouraged. They have a lot of tactical power in their diversity, but it's not as easy to leverage as the sheer efficiency of the Imperial Guard or Tyranids. I won't lie and say that you can bring an ultimate netlist and expect to crush your opposition every game, but as you become intimately familiar with your units, and you enemy's, you will be able to recognize and take advantages of more and more tactical opportunities.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

ShaunyP wrote:

Spoiler:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.

Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.

So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.

Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.

Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.

The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.

You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.

Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.

I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.

Locking shooting? And i want a melee Captain so later I can buy lieutenants and vanguards, maybe some assaults and termies to assist at the front line with re-rolls and the like. By that time I could have cheaper captains at the rear supporting tacticals, heavies and vehicles with re-rolls. Is that solid?

As I said earlier, a unit with enemy models within 1" can only shoot with pistols. Most units that fall back during the movement phase cannot shoot during the shooting phase. Many units, tanks in particular, take several times their cost in firepower to eliminate, but can be "turned off" for far less by getting a model within 1" of it. This is very valuable. If you're in a straight up gun battle with the IG, you're going to lose, but if an 80 point Vanguard squad can stop a 180 point Leman Russ tank [or multiple if you're clever] from shooting during the first few turns, you can tip the balance in your favor. It's better to brave the overwatch of a Leman Russ Punisher than it is to take it's full might in the shooting phase!

Of course, it's not unbeatable. That's why shooting armies have "screens", cheap units that stand between their valuable units and enemy assault units, to drive back the deep strike perimeter and give them a turn or two to shoot down your CQC troops.

There are actually a lot of tactical uses for limited CQC commitment in otherwise shooting-centric lists. I think of CQC as a mean to enhance my shooting units' performance and control what my opponent can do on his turn, not really as a means to kill enemy units.


A CQC captain with a Jump Pack is quite good for supporting Vanguards [and Terminators]. Keep him cheap, though.

Assault Marines [Skyclaws] are a unit that I just don't like. It is my opinion that, if you're going to include Assault Marines, you should instead use Vanguard Veterans. This is because Vanguards get +1 attack base and can wield twin pistols, meaning they have the same CQC effectiveness but also get an extra shot at 12" for 2 points more per model. They can also equip fancy weapons, if you desire them.

Interesting. In terms of my Captain, teeth costs 0 as has to be chainsword. Might keep the master crafted Bolter for 3 points, rapid fire, ap-1 D2. With jump pack is 93 point,+3 for Bolter is 96. Pretty cheap.

ShaunyP wrote:


Interesting. In terms of my Captain, teeth costs 0 as has to be chainsword. Might keep the master crafted Bolter for 3 points, rapid fire, ap-1 D2. With jump pack is 93 point,+3 for Bolter is 96. Pretty cheap.

I like Storm Bolters over MC Boltguns. Save a point.

Yeah, the MC Boltgun has D2, but I like the extra shots. The MC Boltgun is uniquely suited to killing Primaris Marines, and honestly, I don't have enough of a problem with them to warrant the loss of shots against Imperial Guardsmen.


Anyway, that's a minor matter of circumstantial efficiency. Captain + Teeth + MC Boltgun is definitely good. I've got a place to be now, later, and good luck.

ShaunyP wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Tacticals are generally not going to be as customizable as you want.

best you are getting is one special one heavy and one power weapon, chain sword on the sarge.

If looking at Space marines have you considered blood angels or space wolves or dark angels?

I would consider them. Question is if I’d be allowed to use their codexes but with the generic space marine models, using my own colours so I don’t have to for instance use the space wolves’ more elaborate armor.

Space wolf armor isn't generally more elaborate. Current pics have them wearing a lot of fetishy stuff and wolf pelts, but that isn't strictly necessary.
As for colours, that isn't a big deal. There are even past materials that point out that chapters can and do repaint their armour for different operations and environments, special circumstances or honors (Dark Angels, particularly, since that is how they ended up with three different color schemes: original, retcon green and honor-the-dead Bone White). And for a Chapter like Space Wolves, the leader of a great company has a lot of leeway, and might order his men to repaint their armour for a matter of honor, a vow, or even a drunken bet. And they can be out of contact with the main chapter for decades or centuries at a time, even without special circumstances, so might not be up to date on how their grey armor is now supposed to be a light bluish-gray with garish yellow shoulders depending on whose Great Company it is.

So there is a lot of room for custom paint jobs.

I like the models of the plain old space marine though; they give a lot of space for adding your own decorations, I’m not too bad with clay and the likes, so I may be pretty good at adding decor with green stuff.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I have watched several and helped a few people pick this up. Following the advice to "buy whatever you want regardless of efficiency, enjoy losing" is a recipe for disaster. That's how I became a Space Wolves player, with a collection of everything their previous owner though was cool but wasn't good. Everyone always plays for fun: if you lose every game you play, no matter how awesome you think your faction's fluff is, you will not have fun.

It's far easier to start with a strong core and then add on models you like than it is to start with a weak core and try to add in good units once you're tired of losing. And, of course, that's not to say that "models you like" and "units that are good" are mutually exclusive; ideally, if you're in the right faction, there will be rather significant overlap there. A single bad unit does not break a list, and a single good unit does not make a list.


Anyway, another thing, not to be personal: If your opponent is going to "enjoy teaching you a lesson" pounding you down for trying to field a good list, you are playing with the wrong people. If you're legitimately trying to win, I at least will be more than happy to help you out and offer suggestions to improve after playing you. Play with nice people, and be a nice person.


I believe there are a lot of misconceptions and false equations here.
First off, "fun list", "fluffy list", and "good list" are by no means mutually exclusive. My Sisters list is both fun and good. So is my Imperial Guard list.
Second, the basics of the game are not that hard to learn. There's a lot, yes, but most of it is minutae. Understand your list, inside and out. After every battle, think about the enemy list you faced, and try to figure out how it works, and think about how you can better face it.
Third, please, please, please don't be a "casual at all costs" guy. I was like that once. It's not a moral high ground, it's a pit I was standing at the bottom of shouting curses at those who were actually willing to put in the effort to climb out.

With regards to people teaching a new player a painful lesson, I agree with you, but I have seen people do it, and it isn’t pretty. I also agree you shouldn’t be a ‘fluff at all costs’ or a ‘casual at all costs’. But I do think you should be a ‘fun at all costs’ player - which can mean sacrificing the win for an army theme, and equally sacrificing a theme for a better chance to win.

I think just about any unit can be made to work (outside of a face smashing tournament setting) with practice. I disagree that it’s easier to start with strong units and add fun units - though you’re right in saying it’s not that black and white and there is significant overlap there. A weak unit can be made to be effective in a non-tournament setting with practice, but you’ll struggle to come to love a competitive unit you just don’t like the look of. I for instance love Terminators and Chainsword-wielding Crusader Squads - I’m currently running 10 and 30 of them respectively. They are not efficient units, but with practice and a bit of forethought the Crusaders have become the main heavy lifters of my army, and armies that can’t pile on the mortal wounds generally lack the firepower to shift 10 storm shielded Terminators. I’ve turned units I love into a solid enough base to add the odd competitive unit to for a bit more punch, and I love my army to bits because it’s full of angry punchy black armoured psychopaths.

ShaunyP, with regards to Black Templars, Katherine is right - you can get some serious work done by using their Chapter Tactic to re-roll charges off teleporting Terminators or Jump Pack Vanguard Veterans. Between re-rolls from their Chapter Tactic, re-rolling one die with the Command Re-Roll stratagem and having multiple units dropping in at once you can get pretty good odds of getting something into close combat the turn they arrive. My current preferred tactic is to use my army’s ranged firepower to clear the softer ‘screen’ units (those units your opponent is using to surround their important stuff to keep you away) for the first and maybe second turn. Then once I’ve punched a big enough hole I have several hard-hitting elite close combat units arrive at once 9” away and go for the charge.

I reckon you could make a solid army using Black Templar Chapter Tactics with a front line consisting of some Terminators (look into Assault Terminators - those buggers are nasty) and Vanguard Vets, with a back line of heavy firepower - Devastators, Predators and/Dreadnoughts to taste. A cheap Captain (and/or Lieutenant) for re-rolls. For the close combat guys, look at Chaplains (with Jump Packs / Terminator Armour so they can keep up with the squads) - they don’t give re-rolls for shooting but allow you to re-roll all failed hit rolls, not just 1s.

That should leave you a good slug of points for a ‘midfield’. This is where your troops go, and they’re kind of a ‘cleanup’ role. Your big heavy hitters do the bulk of the damage to your opponent’s hardest targets, so these guys’ role is to shred the softer stuff, take objectives and finish enemy units off. It really depends on how you want to play. You can be super-aggressive like I am, slamming the entire midfield into your opponent once your heavy assault hitters have tied them up. Alternatively, you can play the tactical application of maximum force game, keeping a little bit of distance and concentrating medium-ranged firepower like plasma guns and bolters on specific targets. As I said, it depends on how you want to play.

An example list might broadly look like this:

Front Line

Chaplain in Terminator Armour (for the re-rolls)
Assault Terminators with Thunder Hammers and Storm Shields (king hitters and tough to kill)
2x Vanguard Veteran Squads with Chainswords (little harassment units to tie up your opponent’s shooting)

Back Line

Captain (and/or Lieutenant) with something like a Master-Crafted Bolter and Lightning Claw (more re-rolls, and can help out if your back line gets charged by the enemy)
Devastator Squad with Lascannons
Predator with Lascannons
Venerable Dreadnought

Mid Field

Captain and Lieutenant (for bulk re-rolls) with some nasty close combat gear
2 7-man Crusader Squads with Chainswords and a Meltagun, Power Sword and Sword Brother with Power Sword in each squad (for the follow-up punch to the front line)
Land Raider Crusader (for lots and lots of bullets)
A third Crusader squad, with a heavy weapon, for claiming objectives

OR

4 Rhinos
4 Crusader Squads armed as above
High Marshal Helbrecht and a cheap Lieutenant

These are examples of how you could fit out the aggressive style. They give you a nice mixed army that you can add or subtract units from for style or competitiveness as you prefer. These are to give you an idea of what a 2000 point army might look like - you don’t need to get there straight away but it’s nice to have a goal to aim for. If you wanted to play the slightly less aggressive version you could take the latter midfield example, replace one Rhino/Crusader Squad pair for a Scout Squad or two, a third Crusader Squad swapped for a Sternguard Veteran squad and the remaining Crusader Squad be armed with bolters and a heavy weapon. That’s the great thing about a Crusader Squads, they can be armed however you like. Plus the Black Templars Chapter Tactic lets you have a few nasty assault units getting in close without having to build your whole army around close combat.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Marmatag wrote:If for whatever reason you're building a list around tactical marines you should use the lascannon. There is no other special or heavy weapon that pulls its weight for the cost.

Secondly, I would not recommend going basic space marines. And if you do, and you don't go Ultramarines, you will struggle mightily against most factions. Even in casual games, it will be an uphill battle.

So, if you insist on going down this road, you need to understand that without rerolls, marines are flat terrible. You need to make sure you have rerolls on your shooting units. Don't even bother with melee, elite melee models are just incredibly bad in 8th edition, and probably won't be viable until 9th.

Since marines are kind of shoe-horned into the gunline strategy due to the requirement of rerolls, I would highly recommend bringing a detachment of Imperial Guard. Your static, points expensive gunline will need screening units, and Guard artillery is head and shoulders better than Marine artillery, even with rerolls. Not to mention, it's fundamentally cheaper.

Anyone who tells you that you can make a viable melee marine list in the current state of 8th edition is not your friend. You're setting yourself up for frustration. I will curb stomp melee marine lists with any Tyranid list i make, for example.

The best way to get melee on your captain, if you're in the SM codex, (in my opinion) is the teeth of terra relic. It replaces a chainsword, so 0 cost, and it has some AP, and gives precious extra attacks. So for like 20 points extra you can have a jump pack Teeth of Terra captain. But again you want your captain out of melee, providing rerolls to your shooty units. He's a last ditch, desperation gasp to defend your real value units, which are the lascannons, and twin assault cannons, and imperial guard artillery. If your reroll providing unit is finding itself in melee, you probably already lost, honestly.

You are excessively negative. While it's entirely true that a mass melee Space Marine list will never stand up to a mass melee Tyranids list or mass melee Chaos list of equivalent optimization, the Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off. The way I see it, in a Marine list, CQC's primary effect is locking shooting, and secondary effect is doing damage.

Marines are by no means shoehorned into being a gunline. It's really easy to get your re-rolls where you want them.

I do agree that tooling up captains to be fighters isn't really a good use of them, I'd rather keep them cheap and providing re-rolls. I do think Jump Packs are a good investment though.

Not negative, honest.

Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off.

List the units, and name some games where you lost to marines, playing something other than marines yourself, where these made an impact against you, in 8th edition.

Vanguard vets are pretty good. Lots of good options.

 Marmatag wrote:
Not negative, honest.

No, negative. Poisonously so.

Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off.

List the units, and name some games where you lost to marines, playing something other than marines yourself, where these made an impact against you, in 8th edition.

Marines get their work done by stacks of rerolls turning mediocre units into effective ones. I recently took the following to a fairly competitive tournament and went 3-1-2:

Helbrecht, Emperor’s Champion, Lieutenant, Cenobyte Servitors and 10 close combat Crusaders in a Land Raider Crusader
10 close combat Crusaders in a Rhino
10 close combat Crusaders in a Rhino

10 TH SS Terminators
Terminator Chaplain

Twin Chainfist Relic Contemptor
Quad Las Predator

The sum total of my shooting is a bunch of small arms from the Land Raider and Rhinos, two Heavy Flamers on the Dread, sidearms on the infantry and 4 Lascannons. All of that list’s bite is in its assault units. It is effective because, as Katherine says, they can be leveraged effectively. When in range of Helbrecht and the Lieutenant, those Terminators (with a 3CP Stratagem in effect) put out 42 Str10 AP-3 D3 attacks hitting on 4s rerolling 1s and 2s and rerolling 1s to wound. The Dread swings 4 times at Str16 Ap-4 D4 rerolling all hits and 1s to wound. The basic Crusaders put out a combined 60 Str 5 attacks hitting on 3s rerolling everything and 1s to wound. Helbrecht himself puts out up to 7 Str 6 Ap-3 DD3 attacks hitting on 2s with rerolls and rerolling 1s to wound and the Champion puts out up to 5 Str 8 Ap-3 DD3 attacks hitting on 2 and rerolling everything. Yeah, nothing in there is particularly scary on their own but the sheer reliability of high-quality attacks makes them dangerous.

I can't imagine how you that list gets anything done against the IG players I have to deal with.

I don't think you can leverage that list against elite-style lists. Not enough shooting, melee is too weak in 8th.

First of all, apologies if I'm just in half cocked here, I've read the majority of the first page and skimmed the rest so I'd imagine whatever I say has largely been covered but in the event it hasn't I thought I'd just add my bit.

The best advice I have received with wargaming as a hobby in general is to start slow and just take it easy. There are certain items you will need to get started, much the same as any hobby but I believe people have already given advice on the books front etc.

As you're starting fresh and new to the hobby I'd suggest, as you mentioned yourself, would be to start small with a HQ and 2 x troop choices. This will give you the chance to get some models built and painted, review the rules and then sink your teeth into some introductory games.

After you've played a few games and wrapped your head around the rules you may decide "well, I like having marines at my core but they really could do with some heavy support" and from there you may decide you like the aesthetics of the Predator or that you simply love the idea of Space Marine grade artillery and as a result opt for a Whirlwind.

I've found that it's best to build slow as it will allow you to avoid a backlog, grow into more varied and advanced rules and progress at a pace which suits you.

Depending on what your local community is like, you may even find players willing to lend you use of a predator <insert other unit here> for a game or two while you're both in store.

Finally when it comes to larger models, vehicles etc. it may well be worth looking into magnetising weapon options. You'll often find various guides for doing this as it's a good way to get the most out of your investment.

Marmatag wrote:

Not negative, honest.

Space Marines do have some fair assault units that can be leveraged successfully. I would not write them off.

List the units, and name some games where you lost to marines, playing something other than marines yourself, where these made an impact against you, in 8th edition.

I've done the described to other players. That's why I bring Sisters Seraphim in my list, for the express purpose to trying to lock up a heavy gun unit.

I haven't had as many opportunities with my Space Wolves, because I rarely use them, but I have taken a liking to Wolf Guard. I do get the feeling that we're just worse Stormtroopers, but I get that feeling about everything, SoB Dominions included, 'cause Stormtroopers. Anyway, back to Wolf Guard, who are the Space Wolves version of Vanguard and Sternguard together, I've found to be fairly fun. Right now, I'm theorizing Storm Bolter + Chainsword, for 18PPM and a CP gets me a pretty nasty unit.

Martel732 wrote:I can't imagine how you that list gets anything done against the IG players I have to deal with.

I don't think you can leverage that list against elite-style lists. Not enough shooting, melee is too weak in 8th.

I'm not sure how you can say that. I've entered into CQC with my own Dominions and Immolators, which are decidedly not CQC troops, for the express purpose of denying shooting to Leman Russ Tanks, Land Raiders, Razorbacks, etc.

Close Quarters is hilariously strong this edition, since you can fall back at will. The charging unit no longer has to actually possess the ability to kill the target in melee, it just needs the ability to not die.

Because it only saves you from the units you actually touch. The workflow is CQC unit assaults chaff unit -> chaff unit dies or falls back -> beta strike from the remaining gun line kills your CQC units.

The best advice at this point is give the game a try, and talk to people in your meta.

If you're in Martel's meta, you're not going to have any fun. You're going to get destroyed. Even if you took the most OP netlist.

If you're in my meta, a Captain with any kit and 2xTac squads with any legal config will get you a fun little game.

Every meta is different. And there's nothing to be gained by optimizing for top tournies before you've had a chance to see if you like the game.

Side note:
For CC Marines, I'd actually still put Boltguns on the Tacs and give Sarge a CCW. Combi/special/heavy are optional (but i think make it more fun.

The point is to shoot with the boltguns first, while getting close for the assault.

Against shooty, like Guard, you advance on them, taking losses while inflicting losses, until you're in CC range, then charge. You need to close before they kill too many of your guys.

Against choppy, like Orkz, the point is to shoot enough of the Orkz before they get to you that you can win the CC. You can even countercharge - charge their units before they charge you, so you can kill more of them before all their Boyz get in. Or, once they get a unit in with one of yours, if it survived, charge into that CC with everything that can.

Against combined arms, you need to adjust what winds up opposite what, and ensure you're getting close to their shooty, while not letting their choppy get close to your shooty.

A cheap CC captain (Teeth of Tera or just a power weapon) is nice for this, because he can back up the Tac squad(s) when CC happens. He's there to support.

The reason for boltguns is because they do their work in the prelude to CC. And with a CCW on Sarge, you only lose half the not-impressive attacks - you still get all the powerful attacks the Sarge puts out.

So, even when I play my Marines more choppy than shooty, I like boltguns on them over chainswords. Your answer for volume is to ensure more of your guys are part of the fight and fewer of theirs are. If you can have 2 10man Tac squads fight one squad of Boyz while the other isn't in CC yet, you're going to do much better.

Martel732 wrote:
Because it only saves you from the units you actually touch. The workflow is CQC unit assaults chaff unit -> chaff unit dies or falls back -> beta strike from the remaining gun line kills your CQC units.

You're pretending that the CQC unit doesn't have guns. My Wolf Guard have Storm Bolters and my Seraphim are dual-wielding Bolt Pistols.

To be honest, I'm actually pretty happy with the Storm Bolter+Chainsword Wolf Guard as assault units, at least in theory. The Chainswords are free, so I don't feel bad if I don't make my 9" on turn 1.

Seraphim I really like as assault units. Act of Faith gets them 24" and they have FLY to jump the screens.


But I'm getting away from vanilla marines. I think Black Templar Vanguard Veterans with twin bolt pistols can probably make a very good showing for themselves. Drop in, shoot something, charge something. The enemy now has to deal with them, so they're going to get shot. If they die, well, they were only 80 points, if even one lives you can absolutely catch a tank on round two.

You can't jump good screens. That's the whole point of screens.

Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?

At 500pts, you're not going to see a lot of screens.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Did I actually read someone trying to recommend double Bolt Pistols on Vanguard?

Yes. I'm away from my index right now, and don't own the standard SM codex anyway, is that not legal?p

I don't think it's bad. They kill about 4 GEQ each phase with re-rolls, which, for 80 points isn't bad. I think 2x Bolt Pistol is better than Pistol-Chainsword. At some point the unit becomes too expensive yes?

Martel732 wrote:You can't jump good screens. That's the whole point of screens.

Well, otherwise drop troops would be unbelievably broken.
There are several ways to deal with screening infantry.