Potenial major rectons. What do you think if GW did it?

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**pm713**

Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

**tneva82**

pm713 wrote:

Except he isn't immortal, didn't help his father at all so his sacrifice didn't achieve much. Except cursing the Blood Angels.

Yeah well obviously he could be killed and the way they were set up to be warriors yes guess it\s inevitable sooner or later he will be killed but if nobody kills a primarch he would live forever.

So guess "immortal provided he doesn't get killed in combat" would be more accurate but more of a mouthful

**pm713**

Living endlessly until killed isn't special for Warhammer though. It applies to all Dark Eldar and arguably Eldar and Space Marines depending on how living is counted and if you consider Marines immune to age.

**Ruin**

pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

Please stop being so fething obtuse. You are aware there are two types of immortality in the fantasy genre? There is the "cannot be killed" type 1, which Vulkan is, and there is the "ageless being" type 2 like the rest of the Primarchs are.

Elves in LOTR are described as "immortal", they are type 2.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Esmer wrote:
pm713 wrote:

I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.

The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?

That's pretty easy to explain. It was a last chance attack to stop Horus so you may as well take everyone you have including the random Guardsmen and as for getting that far then if you send enough Guardsmen at a problem then someone is bound to make it.

Sadly that story is very predictable, Ol person gets sent to the Vengful spirit through some warp dickery, shuts of the shields to allow the Emp on board, he has seen plenty of chaos in his 41 thousand years (he remembers jason and the golden fleece) so the insane crap will likely just unnerve him, he gets to the bridge, see's the Big E on his knees, thinks "feth it, ive lived long enough and cant let Horus win" and charges Horus firing his good old lasgun, Horus Blats him, Big E recognises Ol person, maybe they were frat buddies or something, gets pissed and mind bullets Horus to mega Dead Dead.

While on the Subject, If Sangy can come back through handwavium, so can Ferrus, Horus, Alpharius and Omegon (whichever Dorn/Guilliman killed), Aun'Va, Shadowsun (she would have died of old age in the current timeline), Lord Solar macharius, Sebastian Thor, Goge Vandire and many many more, lets just revive all these important characters !!!!!! feth the fluff!!!!

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Esmer wrote:
pm713 wrote:

I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.

The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?

That's pretty easy to explain. It was a last chance attack to stop Horus so you may as well take everyone you have including the random Guardsmen and as for getting that far then if you send enough Guardsmen at a problem then someone is bound to make it.

Sadly that story is very predictable, Ol person gets sent to the Vengful spirit through some warp dickery, shuts of the shields to allow the Emp on board, he has seen plenty of chaos in his 41 thousand years (he remembers jason and the golden fleece) so the insane crap will likely just unnerve him, he gets to the bridge, see's the Big E on his knees, thinks "feth it, ive lived long enough and cant let Horus win" and charges Horus firing his good old lasgun, Horus Blats him, Big E recognises Ol person, maybe they were frat buddies or something, gets pissed and mind bullets Horus to mega Dead Dead.

While on the Subject, If Sangy can come back through handwavium, so can Ferrus, Horus, Alpharius and Omegon (whichever Dorn/Guilliman killed), Aun'Va, Shadowsun (she would have died of old age in the current timeline), Lord Solar macharius, Sebastian Thor, Goge Vandire and many many more, lets just revive all these important characters !!!!!! feth the fluff!!!!

That's a bad story right there. There's not really a reason for that much plot aid.

I remember when someone dying in the history of Warhammer meant being dead.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

**DeffDred**

Esmer wrote:
I agree. I fell in love with WH40k in 1997. My friend and his step brother had all the 2nd ed rule books. They had epicast models and tons of eldar, space wolves and orks.
I became obsessed with the Primarchs and the mystery around them. I loved the idea of demi-gods striding upon the battlefields beside their sons. The mythos around them was perfect.
At that time there were only a few crappy epic models and a single picture of the Emperor vs Horus (plus Sanguinius). The descriptions of the Primarchs was perfectly vague and abstract. Magnus was a giant red cyclops, Mortarion was a pale, thin, brooding avatar of death, Alpherius was almost not even existent (with Omegan being years off).
Then Sabertooth Games made that awful card game that had depictions of Angron and others. Then came the Horus Heresy art books which completely and utterly destroyed any imagination around the Primarchs. (Personally I blame John Blanche for outright ruining the idea of the Primarchs with his ridiculous scribbilings).
I spent my college years working tirelessly to depict the Primarchs using what little scraps of information were available. When the "official" versions were released I was heartbroken.

To be fair though, illustrations of several primarchs existed even back in the early days of 2nd Ed. Leman Russ looked like a pretty underwhelming regular Marine dude. He even had a (absolutely tiny) model.

Likewike, several traitor Primarchs had pretty craptastic models for Epic 40,000.

I mean, this was the time when GW wouldn't even shy away from showing the Chaos Gods themselves, in their supposedly true form...and they all looked like ugly elementary school drawings.

I agree that GW shouldn't cast as much light on the events of the Horus Heresy and ret-con things as they are doing with the HH series, but when it comes to the visual side of things, those legendary characters were hardly more mysterious back then than they are now.

Where in the 2nd ed books are the Primarchs shown? I don't recall. I'll have to take another look tonight.
That Leman Russ art from Rogue Trader was an "Imperial Commander" not a primarch. His old model was more of a Ragnar Blackmane prototype. There was also Bobby G too but it was more of a decorative collectors model.

I mentioned the Epic models but those were daemon primarchs not preheresy.

Yeah the old art was terrible. I can't remember but judging by how awful they were I'd guess they were by John "how the hell is this guy the art director?" Blanche.

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.

I have

A: The English language on my side.

B: The fluff of the game backing me up.

You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.

**BaconCatBug**

If they retconed Sangy Boi and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFETHING HORUS I'd genuinely consider packing it in for good.

The ENTIRE CLIMAX of the Horus Heresy is that Sangy Sacrificed Himself For Realsies No Takebacks. Remove that and they ruin the entire setting.

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.

I have

A: The English language on my side.

B: The fluff of the game backing me up.

You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.

You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!

**thekingofkings**

I think I would completely abandon the whole concept of 40k, especially since I already have 30k, why play 2 basically identical settings. If I wanted primarchs I would just play 30k. I dont see why a "Story" has to progress when its just a setting for wargames to be played. Its not like anything that happens on my table matters in the slightest to the setting overall.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.

I have

A: The English language on my side.

B: The fluff of the game backing me up.

You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.

You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!

Wow.... I mean wow, "niether of those things" I literally have the dictionary definition and you are saying its wrong.... wow

Tell you what, when you compile a lexicon of any language, I will go with what you are saying on it yeah?

Look, your wrong, just admit it, there is no shame in owning up to not understanding a word properly (I do it all the time), its not pedantry, you made a claim that primarchs were not immortal, and I showed you they are by its very definition.

And its not a sidetrack, your opinion is that his death means nothing, in spite of him being worshipped across the imperium, in spite of being told that he fought and likely weakened Horus, in spite of being told that without his death the Emperor would likely not found the will to kill Horus, in spite being told that had Horus won that the entire human race and chaos gods would have died out (Ref: Legion), in spite of all these things, you still.... think you are right....

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.

I have

A: The English language on my side.

B: The fluff of the game backing me up.

You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.

You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!

Wow.... I mean wow, "niether of those things" I literally have the dictionary definition and you are saying its wrong.... wow
Tell you what, when you compile a lexicon of any language, I will go with what you are saying on it yeah?

Look, your wrong, just admit it, there is no shame in owning up to not understanding a word properly (I do it all the time), its not pedantry, you made a claim that primarchs were not immortal, and I showed you they are by its very definition.

And its not a sidetrack, your opinion is that his death means nothing, in spite of him being worshipped across the imperium, in spite of being told that he fought and likely weakened Horus, in spite of being told that without his death the Emperor would likely not found the will to kill Horus, in spite being told that had Horus won that the entire human race and chaos gods would have died out (Ref: Legion), in spite of all these things, you still.... think you are right....

Hooooooly feth. You are dense. Neither of those things support the point about Sanguinius's death being pivotal. Like I said. I am talking English. You are talking moron.

Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.

You told me the stuff about Sanguinius being the reason the Emperor killed Horus and like I said that's still wrong. Unless we can make things true by saying them in which case the Emperor found the strength to kill Horus because the clock reach 07:33 and the Emperor gets a power refresh then.

**Ruin**

pm713 wrote:

Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.

Um, no it doesn't. Sangy is the only Primarch called out by name (in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis IIRC) who has temples to him and is worshiped just like the Emperor across the Imperium. no other Primarch has this honour.

**pm713**

Ruin wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.

Um, no it doesn't. Sangy is the only Primarch called out by name (in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis IIRC) who has temples to him and is worshiped just like the Emperor across the Imperium. no other Primarch has this honour.

Roboute has a shrine in a temple. Or is that not counting?

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Vulkan is immortal. The rest aren't. If they were immortal then they couldn't be killed. He fought and didn't do anything. The attack that killed Horus utterly destroyed his soul beyond any recovery. A chink in armour isn't going to help that nor is doubt. That kind of attack was going to kill whatever it hit.

You are letting our country down with a lack of understanding of our language

one of the meanings of the word Immortal
"not liable to perish or decay; imperishable; everlasting."

And just in case you still fail to understand the what that means

one of the meanings of the word Liable
"likely to do or to be something"

and just to hammer the point home, one meaning of the word Likely
"such as well might happen or be true; probable."

So Immortal can and does mean totally undying, but it also means other things, so as the other poster said, stop being obtuse, because you are wrong.

Right fine. Whatever Lovely as it is to watch people copy word definitions it doesn't change you being completely wrong.

I have

A: The English language on my side.

B: The fluff of the game backing me up.

You have.... what? your opinion? I mean thats fine and all that, but it doesnt make you right, especially after you have been show to be utterly wrong, but no, I'm wrong "because you said so" good job.

You have neither of those things. Neither of those made Sanguinius's death worth anything. Like your sidetrack about the meaning of immortality it's meaningless. But at least you get to be pedantic about immortality. That was super fun!

Wow.... I mean wow, "niether of those things" I literally have the dictionary definition and you are saying its wrong.... wow
Tell you what, when you compile a lexicon of any language, I will go with what you are saying on it yeah?

Look, your wrong, just admit it, there is no shame in owning up to not understanding a word properly (I do it all the time), its not pedantry, you made a claim that primarchs were not immortal, and I showed you they are by its very definition.

And its not a sidetrack, your opinion is that his death means nothing, in spite of him being worshipped across the imperium, in spite of being told that he fought and likely weakened Horus, in spite of being told that without his death the Emperor would likely not found the will to kill Horus, in spite being told that had Horus won that the entire human race and chaos gods would have died out (Ref: Legion), in spite of all these things, you still.... think you are right....

Hooooooly feth. You are dense. Neither of those things support the point about Sanguinius's death being pivotal. Like I said. I am talking English. You are talking moron.

Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.

You told me the stuff about Sanguinius being the reason the Emperor killed Horus and like I said that's still wrong. Unless we can make things true by saying them in which case the Emperor found the strength to kill Horus because the clock reach 07:33 and the Emperor gets a power refresh then.

So dense I know what words mean and you dont? mmmmkay, you keep up the good work there slugger.

and no, not every loyalist primarch is worshipped, they are all venerated as demi gods and the sons of the Emperor, only Sanguinius is worshipped in the same manner as the Emperor (imperium wide, some worlds may worship the primarchs).

Yes he weakened Horus, to what degree is debatable of course, and yes of course Sanguinius is the reason the Emperor killed Horus, but not the ONLY reason, now who is being dense

**pm713**

You can remove Sanguinius and there is 0 change in the battle. He doesn't matter.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
You can remove Sanguinius and there is 0 change in the battle. He doesn't matter.

You are doing the internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and shouting "lalalalala" at the top of your voice

Automatically Appended Next Post:

pm713 wrote:
Ruin wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well being worshipped applies to any Loyalist Primarch regardless of them dying and he hardly weakened Horus.

Um, no it doesn't. Sangy is the only Primarch called out by name (in the 2nd ed. Codex Imperialis IIRC) who has temples to him and is worshiped just like the Emperor across the Imperium. no other Primarch has this honour.

Roboute has a shrine in a temple. Or is that not counting?

sweet jesus, do you even know what a shrine is?

**Galas**

BaconCatBug wrote:
If they retconed Sangy Boi and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFETHING HORUS I'd genuinely consider packing it in for good.

The ENTIRE CLIMAX of the Horus Heresy is that Sangy Sacrificed Himself For Realsies No Takebacks. Remove that and they ruin the entire setting.

I know what you’re thinking, but Vengeful Spirit was merely a setback!

**Iron_Captain**

I predict Sanguinius is coming back. I have said this since they brought back Guilliman.
There simply is no other option for GW. To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have. This means we are likely going to see Guilliman, Russ, the Lion and Sanguinius as loyalist Primarchs.
It is not like GW respects the fluff when it comes to selling characters. According to the fluff, all Tau characters should have died of old age by now. Yet it seems they are still around. They will just write new fluff about how they somehow found a way to resurrect Sanguinius (which could either be epic or total bollocks depending on how they handle it). There will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth here on Dakka about it, but the impact will be softened by the model being epic and having amazing rules and eventually people will just accept the new fluff and go along.

**Arachnofiend**

Galas wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
If they retconed Sangy Boi and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFETHING HORUS I'd genuinely consider packing it in for good.

The ENTIRE CLIMAX of the Horus Heresy is that Sangy Sacrificed Himself For Realsies No Takebacks. Remove that and they ruin the entire setting.

I know what you’re thinking, but Vengeful Spirit was merely a setback!

Reviving Sanguinius as a Chaos Primarch with a big green gem in his chest sustaining him only to immediately kill him again is probably the best way to piss off the most people possible. I approve!

**Scott-S6**

pm713 wrote:
I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.

It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.

Seeing what Horus did to Sanguinius is what gets the Emperor to take off the gloves and actually finish Horus. Without that it's quite possible that Horus kills the Emperor. No warp travel for humans, no keeping the broken portal in the basement closed so terra is now the centre of another eye of terror. The Imperium no longer exists. Pretty pivotal.

**John Prins**

WH40K is no better written than any comic book fiction, and they have people coming back from the dead all the time. Bring back the Primarchs. Heck, bring back the Emperor while you're at it. It doesn't matter as long as there's drama. It's the drama that sells.

Besides, you've got souls, the warp, and space magic, so bringing someone back from the dead isn't even a stretch. Celestine comes back from the dead four times before breakfast.

**Galas**

Arachnofiend wrote:
Galas wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
If they retconed Sangy Boi and FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFETHING HORUS I'd genuinely consider packing it in for good.

The ENTIRE CLIMAX of the Horus Heresy is that Sangy Sacrificed Himself For Realsies No Takebacks. Remove that and they ruin the entire setting.

I know what you’re thinking, but Vengeful Spirit was merely a setback!

Reviving Sanguinius as a Chaos Primarch with a big green gem in his chest sustaining him only to immediately kill him again is probably the best way to piss off the most people possible. I approve!

Sanguinius, a Daemon Primarch of Khorne and Slaanesh. I can see it.

**FreeFrag.UK**

Probably mentioned previously in this thread, especially given it's been mentioned across various forums but wouldn't the best (and considered most likely) contender for a more solid feature be The Sanguinor being around on a more permanent basis?

This would seem quite befitting in lieu of recent events within 8th edition.

Roboute was a stretch for me but I can look passed it, Sanguinius would be a step too far but on the flip side it wouldn't drive me away from the game.

The current events in 8th edition open up a lot more freedom for GW and potentially more supplements. Who's to say that The Great Khan won't come back from his hunt to assist his brothers? Or various other primarchs who decided to go off for the ultimate tourist experience?

Or the return of those primarchs who have since ascended to daemonhood? 8th gives GW a lot more room to play with but unfortunately it looks as though the loyalists have a weaker footing when it comes to bringing back various characters.

Hopefully one thing the story progression will produce is an introduction of new characters for the more mortal races as time goes on.

**AndrewGPaul**

Formosa wrote:
yes he did help his father, he fought and died for him, creating a chink in Horus's armour (I think this is an analogy for "doubt" not a literal rip in his armour).

And I also prefer the lone guardsman fighting against all odds.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough; where does this bit about Sanguinius helping the Emperor come from? As I said, the most recent version of the story I'm aware of says no such thing (I already quoted the only mention of Sanguinius on Horus' ship) and had a Custodes be the one interrupt the duel. Where is this changed back to Ollanius Pius, and where did the idea that Sanguinius opened a weak spot (real or metaphorical) in Horus' armour come from?

I'm not saying you're wrong; just that I'm not familiar with it, and I want to see the source material. As it stands, going by the material I'm familiar with, the presence or otherwise of Sanguinius, and his death or survival, would have little or no effect on the end of the Heresy.

**Davor**

Iron_Captain wrote: To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have.

I am not saying you are wrong, just that I don't understand this "degree of equality". Why just Space Marines? How about all the other races. Shouldn't they have an equivalent as well? Now that would be equal. Story wise we don't need it, but play wise especially Match Play wise, everyone should have an option that is equal to Robute.

**Arachnofiend**

Davor wrote:
Iron_Captain wrote: To maintain a degree of equality all SM codices must have access to a Primarch, and Sanguinius is the only Primarch the BA have.

I am not saying you are wrong, just that I don't understand this "degree of equality". Why just Space Marines? How about all the other races. Shouldn't they have an equivalent as well? Now that would be equal. Story wise we don't need it, but play wise especially Match Play wise, everyone should have an option that is equal to Robute.

I actually agree that other, non-space marine factions should get primarch equivalents. I want to see the Silent King on the table.