Potenial major rectons. What do you think if GW did it?

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**lliu**

Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.

There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.

**Torga_DW**

lliu wrote:
Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.

There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.

Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.

**Davor**

Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Davor wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote:I have just one question for the OP?

What's the proof? What's the situation? Where's the source?

This sounds like clickbait and baseless speculation.

I think Voss is right that this isn't true.

So Dakka is just a clickbait then?
I didn't say Dakka was clickbait. I said this thread is.

You've provided no source at all in your OP. How am I supposed to believe something without a source I can trust?

I wasn't giving out a rumour, so no need to believe.

That is where I read it from, the below quote.

AveImperator wrote:They stated that in the video that:
"Sanguinus is in statis/bad shape state."

Did you watch the video yourself?

**Formosa**

Torga_DW wrote:
lliu wrote:
Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.

There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.

Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.

Yes and no, for me its the fluff that keeps me playing this game a good example of that is the novel The Betrayer, after that book I went out and dropped a lot of money bucks on a HH world eaters army, others play the game first and then go for the fluff, and yet again another set of people have no real interest in the fluff outside of the codex's, were a varied bunch.

**YeOldSaltPotato**

I still say, IF he comes back it'll be warp bs version of him not miracle healing version. He'd most certainly be more along the lines of a living saint than boop I'm good, after all living saints are martyrs and he's the biggest one of the imperium.

And really, aside from Horus no one was obliterated and the warp can do some impressive crap. We have entire demon worlds that resurrect, what's the deal with a couple primarchs? Maybe they'll have real fun with it and the warp has been dangling the brutalized sanginius in front of the emperor's throne for the last 10k years mocking him and something changes the status quo.

**lliu**

Torga_DW wrote:
lliu wrote:
Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.

There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.

Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.

I will dispute that badass claim, since I play DA, but anyway... Sure, I mean it would sell, and sell well at that, but think about how much story they’d be shattering. I believe if you wanted wings, a Corax miniature is going to be as good (please don’t kill me BA players), and if you want most possible, the Lion is literally just taking a nap, with no mentioned death causing injuries. Combine that with the fact that literally two of the most iconic pieces of art are of dead sanguinius and the emprah, and dead aanguinius and the emprah mark 2, you have a very unprovable case. I’ll admit it, the model will sell well, but in the long run, look at general opinion. Most people in this forum are against it. GW does not become a multi-million dollar company from stupidity, just by spending 5 minutes to look at hobbyist opinion would show that not a lot of people like it. Overall I just don’t get why you could probably earn a comparable amount of money from any of the other Primarchs, without breaking the story...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and yeah geedubs has been pretty stupid these last few years but it’s getting better with Mr. Ruonyree.

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
Jesus, if they are so disconnected that they bring back Sanguinius I am done with the new 40k fluff, his death is so pivotal to the background of 40k and so important, I just could not accept this "deus ex" moment.

How is it pivotal to all 40k...

How do you not know?

Sanguinius sacrificed himself, knowing he could not win and was going to die, he wanted to hold back the darkness but had no chance in succeeding, yet still went, and even for all his nobility his sacrifice was in vain, that literally embodies the core theme of 40k grim darkness, that no matter who you are, or what you have done, Chaos will always win in the end, your just holding back the tide.

Now if he returns? Well anyone can, and his sacrifice meant nothing at all, you break one of the central tenets of 40k and the second biggest event in the psyche of the imperium (first being the emperors acention to the golden throne) the death of the emperors most noble son, sacrificing himself at the hands of the serpent (Horus).

I'm not gonna just the gun on this as I doubt even gw is stupid enough to try to pull this one off, but if they do the new 40k (8th ed) fluff is a total no go for me, it's almost universally a dumpster fire already, this would push it over the edge.

I wouldn't call that pivotal seeing as if he doesn't do that things don't change much.

It defines the setting well but pivotal it is not.

Then no offence you are wrong, had sanguinius not sacrificed himself the whole universe would be a totally different place, the Emperor would likely have died and Horus would have succeeded, that would then lead the extinction of the human race and the defeat of the chaos gods, that is as pivotal as it gets.

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

**Tamwulf**

lliu wrote:
Torga_DW wrote:
lliu wrote:
Just. To. Add. To. What. People. Said.

There is no way in the seven hells GW is bringing back Sanguinius. The whole BA plot line is based on him seeing his futures, and determining the one that he died in was overall best for mankind. Even the black rage is based on him dying, and in almost every description of it, the marines afflicted feel as if they are dying. To address the point on what motivated the emperor more: what would motivate him? One of his sons, the most favoured in all of the imperium, the one that he just found out that Horus had killed, one of a unique twenty (or 18 for that matter) superhuman super super super soldiers, or some nobody in terminator armour that Horus probably killed thousands of. Sure it might be portrayed that way, but just look at the difference in significance.

Yeah, that all makes sense.... *if* you ignore the money that a primarily models-based company could make on bringing back a model of one of *the* most badass, noble, relatable characters you could ever create! Hell, i would buy a sanguinius model (as long as it didn't have a potato for a face) and i'm actively boycotting gw until they get their game (sh*t) together. Your problem is focusing on the story, when there are profits to be made.

I will dispute that badass claim, since I play DA, but anyway... Sure, I mean it would sell, and sell well at that, but think about how much story they’d be shattering. I believe if you wanted wings, a Corax miniature is going to be as good (please don’t kill me BA players), and if you want most possible, the Lion is literally just taking a nap, with no mentioned death causing injuries. Combine that with the fact that literally two of the most iconic pieces of art are of dead sanguinius and the emprah, and dead aanguinius and the emprah mark 2, you have a very unprovable case. I’ll admit it, the model will sell well, but in the long run, look at general opinion. Most people in this forum are against it. GW does not become a multi-million dollar company from stupidity, just by spending 5 minutes to look at hobbyist opinion would show that not a lot of people like it. Overall I just don’t get why you could probably earn a comparable amount of money from any of the other Primarchs, without breaking the story...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and yeah geedubs has been pretty stupid these last few years but it’s getting better with Mr. Ruonyree.

You are still looking at this like the fluff/story matters. It doesn't. making/selling the best models in the world is GW's by-line. Secondary to that is the games it makes (they simply promote the models they sell), and the fluff written about those models (which is tertiary to making and selling models).

GW has made major retcons in the fluff before to introduce a new model into the game.

This is also a major opportunity for the company. They have a character with this incredible back story, that is the Primarch for one of the most popular legions, and is supposedly dead. Surprise! He's not dead, just mostly dead. Guess what? They did the exact same thing with Roubute Guiliman. And GW contrived this totally comic book reason for bringing back Bobby G. Why not do the same with Sangy? We'll never know how many Triumvirate of the Primarch GW has sold, but when just about every Space Marine player, and a fair amount of Imperial players has a Bobby G... well, it doesn't take much for someone to say "Well, it worked for Bobby G. Why can't we bring back Sangy? The fluff? That's tertiary to making and selling models. Retcon and let's do it!"

**pm713**

As well the past indicates they aren't that afraid of making people upset with their choices if there's money involved.

**Melissia**

Davor wrote:
I wasn't giving out a rumour, so no need to believe.

No, you said something patently false.

**DeffDred**

Ruin wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
I've heard this as well, that his body is in stasis and his soul is somewhere else, so if they were reunited he would be reborn. Honestly I find it a bit lame; I liked the old fluff where the loyal primarchs were akin to "tall tales" like Paul Bunyan; lots of myths and legends surrounding them and their deeds, but nobody is alive who really remembers the truth since it's had 10,000 years of Imperial Propaganda to be manipulated. Hell, I liked when the Horus Heresy was like that too before Forgeworld started to expand it and detail every bit; it was IMHO better as a legend from the far past that has a lot of various tales of what happened, any/none of which may or may not be true.

It's pretty clear they want to set up the "Big Four" loyalists versus the "Big Four" traitors. So Russ, Guilliman, Lion and Sanguinius versus Angron, Mortarion, Fulgrim and Magnus s the big confrontation. Whether that means the others will come back as well or not is up to debate, but those ones are all but guaranteed (we already have two of the traitors actually available, and strong rumors of the other two coming in the future).

I think it's a little too comic book retcon-y for my taste. It removes a lot of the cool factor of the setting for the sake of putting out yet another likely overpowered model to milk sales. Remember, Sanguinius' death was basically the keystone of allowing the Emperor to kill Horus; he's the only primarch to have an imperial holiday to honor his sacrifice (the Sanguinala). If he comes back to life, does he still get the holiday? Wouldn't that cure the Black Rage since it's the psychic after-effect of his death i.e. no more Death Company?

The whole point of 40k and moving this storyline forward with the 13th Black Crusade was to show that mankind is facing the "End Times", and is on the brink of extinction but has to fight back. By bringing back primarchs, that is more akin to it moving away from that feeling of hopelessness on all sides and the forces of Chaos encroaching and into the realm of godlike heroes coming to save the Imperium, which grows stronger than ever before. It's really gakky storytelling IMHO.

So much this. The Horus Heresy books are the Star Wars prequels of 40k. In every comparable way.

I agree. I fell in love with WH40k in 1997. My friend and his step brother had all the 2nd ed rule books. They had epicast models and tons of eldar, space wolves and orks.
I became obsessed with the Primarchs and the mystery around them. I loved the idea of demi-gods striding upon the battlefields beside their sons. The mythos around them was perfect.
At that time there were only a few crappy epic models and a single picture of the Emperor vs Horus (plus Sanguinius). The descriptions of the Primarchs was perfectly vague and abstract. Magnus was a giant red cyclops, Mortarion was a pale, thin, brooding avatar of death, Alpherius was almost not even existent (with Omegan being years off).
Then Sabertooth Games made that awful card game that had depictions of Angron and others. Then came the Horus Heresy art books which completely and utterly destroyed any imagination around the Primarchs. (Personally I blame John Blanche for outright ruining the idea of the Primarchs with his ridiculous scribbilings).
I spent my college years working tirelessly to depict the Primarchs using what little scraps of information were available. When the "official" versions were released I was heartbroken.

Once upon a time I saw Magnus the Red like this...

Only to have Blanche come along and reveal this monstrosity...

I miss the days of legends and myths.

**Davor**

Melissia wrote:
Davor wrote:
I wasn't giving out a rumour, so no need to believe.
No, you said something patently false.

Now that I am awake and just reread what I wrote, yeah I guess I did. I swear I added in the part of "I read it here on dakka" but got distracted, and left that part out. Oh well, not the first time it happened. Also I am sure you have made this mistake once or twice before. We are all not perfect.

Corrected now.

So I like to apologize to everyone in stating what I said. I didn't mean it to come out as a rumour. As I said, I got distracted when typing and forgot the number one rule that Games Workshop doesn't do and others here on the forums and proof read what we typed out.

Sorry everyone if I got you upset. It wasn't my intent at all but a discussion to discuss possible rectons.

**DeffDred**

You should probably change the thread title.
A spoiler is usually a fact given early. Not speculation.

**creeping-deth87**

pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

**pm713**

creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Pretty much is. Horus kills Sanguinius. Emps walks in and fights him. Ollanius/Marine/Custodes/whoever it is nowadays walks in and gets casually killed by Horus. That's what makes Emps realise how far gone he is. The pivotal death is the ever changing Ollanius.

**Davor**

DeffDred wrote:
You should probably change the thread title.
A spoiler is usually a fact given early. Not speculation.

Done. Thank you for the advice. I didn't know we could change the title.

**Esmer**

I agree. I fell in love with WH40k in 1997. My friend and his step brother had all the 2nd ed rule books. They had epicast models and tons of eldar, space wolves and orks.
I became obsessed with the Primarchs and the mystery around them. I loved the idea of demi-gods striding upon the battlefields beside their sons. The mythos around them was perfect.
At that time there were only a few crappy epic models and a single picture of the Emperor vs Horus (plus Sanguinius). The descriptions of the Primarchs was perfectly vague and abstract. Magnus was a giant red cyclops, Mortarion was a pale, thin, brooding avatar of death, Alpherius was almost not even existent (with Omegan being years off).
Then Sabertooth Games made that awful card game that had depictions of Angron and others. Then came the Horus Heresy art books which completely and utterly destroyed any imagination around the Primarchs. (Personally I blame John Blanche for outright ruining the idea of the Primarchs with his ridiculous scribbilings).
I spent my college years working tirelessly to depict the Primarchs using what little scraps of information were available. When the "official" versions were released I was heartbroken.

To be fair though, illustrations of several primarchs existed even back in the early days of 2nd Ed. Leman Russ looked like a pretty underwhelming regular Marine dude. He even had a (absolutely tiny) model.

Likewike, several traitor Primarchs had pretty craptastic models for Epic 40,000.

I mean, this was the time when GW wouldn't even shy away from showing the Chaos Gods themselves, in their supposedly true form...and they all looked like ugly elementary school drawings.

I agree that GW shouldn't cast as much light on the events of the Horus Heresy and ret-con things as they are doing with the HH series, but when it comes to the visual side of things, those legendary characters were hardly more mysterious back then than they are now.

**pm713**

Heresy seems like a case where less really would be much more.

**tneva82**

Galas wrote:
fe40k wrote:
You can either have your primarch on the tabletop, but have lore issues; or you can have your lore fine, but not primarch on the tabletop.

You can’t have both - you need to pick one.

And we all know that you’d rather have an op primarch since everyone else will have one, than no primarch at all.

You can call call him something else fluff wise.

I have never understand this. Why 40k needs for the character to be alive in the present timeline to have a playable model with rules? In Fantasy 70% of the Greenskins armybook special characters where historic characters that had died hundreds of years before the present timeline of the setting. Heck, in 40k you have that with Aun'va, for example. They could totally do a model of Sanguinius for 40k without him being alive.

They could use that to make cool models of Solar Macharius for example, or other historic figures from the 31K-39K period.

That would be 30k model. Sang never was alive for 40k to be historical model. That would be the upcoming 30k sanq&his rules.

**AndrewGPaul**

creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.

**pm713**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.

The person who gets obliterated keeps on changing. To my knowledge it's been a Guardsmen called Ollanius, a terminator, a Custodes and a Perpetual (Ollanius again).

**Ruin**

pm713 wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.

The person who gets obliterated keeps on changing. To my knowledge it's been a Guardsmen called Ollanius, a terminator, a Custodes and a Perpetual (Ollanius again).

Almost as if it was an almost mythical event that happened in a time before the franchise's present timeline with a gap of which is longer than recorded human history so far and the details are little sketchy? Say it isn't so!

But no, GW will insist on showing us what Ollanius Pious had for breakfast the morning of the Siege of Terra. Because. Every. Minute. Detail. Has to covered in an almost pornographic fashion.

**Formosa**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.

First story, it was a guardsman, then it was a terminator, then a custodes, then a guardsman, then olanius pius again, the Ol person (same fella)

And frankly anyone who keeps saying Sanguinius's sacrifice is meaningless and pointless, really does not understand the magnitude of an immortal creature giving up eternity in a fight he knows he cannot possibly win, just to give his father a fighting chance

**AndrewGPaul**

We have no idea how Sanguinius died.
'The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred Marines lie everywhere.

Face glowing with internal bloodlight. Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." '

That's it. Did Sanguinius die defiantly? beg for mercy? All we know is that he declined to change sides. There's no indication that he knew what had happened to the Emperor when Horus brought him to his throne room.

(I'm vaguely aware of some retcon that Sanguinius managed to damage Horus' armour which created a weak spot for the Emperor to exploit; I haven't got that version of the story, so I don't know if that's supposed to be a deliberate action on Sanguinius' part.)

I must be missing some versions; the original version of Ollanius Pious is only from the caption of a John Blanche painting of Imperial Guard charging into battle, with Ollanius Pious on their banner. Then there was Bill King's story with the terminator. Then the retconned version of that story from Collected Vision which literally replaced the words "Imperial Fists Terminator" with Adeptus Custodes" and changed nothing else. You appear to know of two further versions?

**Esmer**

Methinks the original story, the one with the guardsman called Ollanius Pious, was when the final confrontation between Emps and Horus took place inside the Imperial Palace on Earth. They later changed the place of the battle to Horus' capital ship, and hence changed the person in question from a guardsman to a terminator and later to a Custodes because frankly, why would some minor guardsman even be there? The most up-to-date version seems to be that it will be Ollanius Pious the Perpetual who has already been introduced in the HH series.
Personally, I always thought that the notion of a simple mortal guardsman, called Pious no less, defying Horus was some nice in-universe Imperial propaganda but not what had actually happened.
On the other hand, it makes more sense that the Emperor witnessing Horus ripping apart a weak, frail human who had no chance of harming him in an way with no sign of remorse was the last straw that convinced Emps that Horus was beyond salvation. I mean, what is so horrible about a superhuman Primarch defeating an also superhuman Custodes in battle and killing him? Not much, really.

**pm713**

Formosa wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.

First story, it was a guardsman, then it was a terminator, then a custodes, then a guardsman, then olanius pius again, the Ol person (same fella)

And frankly anyone who keeps saying Sanguinius's sacrifice is meaningless and pointless, really does not understand the magnitude of an immortal creature giving up eternity in a fight he knows he cannot possibly win, just to give his father a fighting chance

Except he isn't immortal, didn't help his father at all so his sacrifice didn't achieve much. Except cursing the Blood Angels.

I'm not going to argue that Sanguinius wasn't a pretty noble and heroic character but his end wasn't a great sacrifice or anything. I think that's pretty defining for the 40k setting - One of the greatest heroes of the fledgling Imperium going into battle with one of the most powerful servants of Chaos and dying. But even though the great hero fell the Imperium carries on fighting for survival. It's basically a summary of Mankind - You get heroes rising and falling in and endless battle for survival but whether or not they succeed in their goals Humanity survives.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Esmer wrote:
Methinks the original story, the one with the guardsman called Ollanius Pious, was when the final confrontation between Emps and Horus took place inside the Imperial Palace on Earth. They later changed the place of the battle to Horus' capital ship, and hence changed the person in question from a guardsman to a terminator and later to a Custodes because frankly, why would some minor guardsman even be there? The most up-to-date version seems to be that it will be Ollanius Pious the Perpetual who has already been introduced in the HH series.
Personally, I always thought that the notion of a simple mortal guardsman, called Pious no less, defying Horus was some nice in-universe Imperial propaganda but not what had actually happened.

I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.

**Esmer**

pm713 wrote:

I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.

The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?

**Formosa**

AndrewGPaul wrote:
We have no idea how Sanguinius died.
'The Warmaster bestrides the body of a broken angel. Behind him the tortured earth fills the viewport, a bauble for Horus to seize with one clawed hand. Corpses of massacred Marines lie everywhere.

Face glowing with internal bloodlight. Horus speaks. "Poor Sanguinius. I offered him a position of power in the new order. He could have sat at the right hand of a god. Alas he chose to align himself with the losing side." '

That's it. Did Sanguinius die defiantly? beg for mercy? All we know is that he declined to change sides. There's no indication that he knew what had happened to the Emperor when Horus brought him to his throne room.

(I'm vaguely aware of some retcon that Sanguinius managed to damage Horus' armour which created a weak spot for the Emperor to exploit; I haven't got that version of the story, so I don't know if that's supposed to be a deliberate action on Sanguinius' part.)

I must be missing some versions; the original version of Ollanius Pious is only from the caption of a John Blanche painting of Imperial Guard charging into battle, with Ollanius Pious on their banner. Then there was Bill King's story with the terminator. Then the retconned version of that story from Collected Vision which literally replaced the words "Imperial Fists Terminator" with Adeptus Custodes" and changed nothing else. You appear to know of two further versions?

there are not 2 further version, there is one that was expanded upon, Ol person is Olanius pius, his mates used to call him "Ol the Pius" its in know no Fear.

**pm713**

Esmer wrote:
pm713 wrote:

I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.

The issue is not so much with the idea in general (in fact, the idea of "Emps gives up on saving Horus after witnessing him commiting such an atrocious act" works far better with the guardsman than with the terminator/Custodes) but with the technicalities. Like, what was this average Joe even doing there? How did he manage to get aboard Horus' flagship, stay alive/sane for more than some split seconds and reach Horus' command bridge?

That's pretty easy to explain. It was a last chance attack to stop Horus so you may as well take everyone you have including the random Guardsmen and as for getting that far then if you send enough Guardsmen at a problem then someone is bound to make it.

**Formosa**

pm713 wrote:
Formosa wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:
creeping-deth87 wrote:
pm713 wrote:

Well no. The Emperor would still have killed Horus and things would go exactly the same but at best Sanguinius still around. Sanguinius died a pointless death doing nothing.

Yeah that's... that's not true at all. Horus killing Sanguinius is what convinces the Emperor that Horus is beyond redemption, it's the pivotal turning point that actually enables the Emperor to kill his son. Sanguinius' death is absolutely not pointless, it's one of the most important deaths, possibly the most important death, in the history of the 40K universe.

Is that a retcon? In Bill King's story, it's Horus obliterating an Imperial Fists terminator that shows the Emperor that Horus is no longer his son. Sanguinius is ... just set dressing.

First story, it was a guardsman, then it was a terminator, then a custodes, then a guardsman, then olanius pius again, the Ol person (same fella)

And frankly anyone who keeps saying Sanguinius's sacrifice is meaningless and pointless, really does not understand the magnitude of an immortal creature giving up eternity in a fight he knows he cannot possibly win, just to give his father a fighting chance

Except he isn't immortal, didn't help his father at all so his sacrifice didn't achieve much. Except cursing the Blood Angels.

I'm not going to argue that Sanguinius wasn't a pretty noble and heroic character but his end wasn't a great sacrifice or anything. I think that's pretty defining for the 40k setting - One of the greatest heroes of the fledgling Imperium going into battle with one of the most powerful servants of Chaos and dying. But even though the great hero fell the Imperium carries on fighting for survival. It's basically a summary of Mankind - You get heroes rising and falling in and endless battle for survival but whether or not they succeed in their goals Humanity survives.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Esmer wrote:
Methinks the original story, the one with the guardsman called Ollanius Pious, was when the final confrontation between Emps and Horus took place inside the Imperial Palace on Earth. They later changed the place of the battle to Horus' capital ship, and hence changed the person in question from a guardsman to a terminator and later to a Custodes because frankly, why would some minor guardsman even be there? The most up-to-date version seems to be that it will be Ollanius Pious the Perpetual who has already been introduced in the HH series.
Personally, I always thought that the notion of a simple mortal guardsman, called Pious no less, defying Horus was some nice in-universe Imperial propaganda but not what had actually happened.

I was always a fan of the idea of a lone Guardsmen walking in on the battle between Horus and the Emperor, seeing these titanic godlike being battling and still trying to help.

All the primarchs are immortal, unless they are killed in some manner, and yes he did help his father, he fought and died for him, creating a chink in Horus's armour (I think this is an analogy for "doubt" not a literal rip in his armour).

And I also prefer the lone guardsman fighting against all odds.