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 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I saw it twice now and cannot wait to see it in 3D as it is supposed to be good there.

I saw it in IMAX 3D, and I enjoyed it.

Thinking about it, this is a 3-quadrant movie:
* Young women (who will ID with Alita's Hero's Journey)
+ Older men (who ID with Ido being a good father)
+ Older women (who ID with Chiren and her redemptive journey)

Notably, it does not specifically appeal to young men, which is an odd choice, but understandable given how much dude-friendly programming is already out there; IMO, this should be getting more female butts in seats. OTOH, it's doing well in Asia, which makes sense, given how solid the FX are, along with the family theme, and winning fights via speed and skill vs size and strength.

I've heard this reaction to the movie a few times (still need to see the film myself) and whenever I watch something where I experience something like it I try to get a grasp on the idea that for a lot of people that's what everything else feels like. My daughter has a show she really likes with a token boy in the lineup that occasionally triggers that sense of "oh, that's what that's like". Probably the most notable example I've come across is Wonder Woman, where a female friend who goes to all the super hero movies with our group left the film asking "is that what all of these movies feel like for you guys?" I appreciate the perspective on it a the very least.

Well for me Alita is one of those pure characters. Yes she goes on a journey but she is a Paladin. She never forgets her values. There has been very few pure good characters without the typical 'flaw' that makes most characters interesting. The last I can think of was the Movie Tangled. This is Tangled with sci fi and action. My daughter pretty much used her theatre skills to compare the 2 together after I made the connection between the two. Both heroins are very similar in story.

Most Pure Good characters are boring....to do them good is more skill than most have.

 admironheart wrote:
Well for me Alita is one of those pure characters. Yes she goes on a journey but she is a Paladin. She never forgets her values. There has been very few pure good characters without the typical 'flaw' that makes most characters interesting. The last I can think of was the Movie Tangled. This is Tangled with sci fi and action. My daughter pretty much used her theatre skills to compare the 2 together after I made the connection between the two. Both heroins are very similar in story.

Most Pure Good characters are boring....to do them good is more skill than most have.

I agree its a hard thing to pull off, most of the time when its tried the character comes off as a mary sue/marty stu, Alita avoided this, she made some pretty heavy mistakes in that film and they had actual ramifications, which she learned from, that takes her from a mary sue to a believable character to me.

None of that matters, thats grown up brain talking, the nieces loved it, especially the younger one, now she wants more alita and less disney princess, she even wants to learn to do martial arts because of that film, shes young (13) so she will likely change her mind in a few weeks but im gonna encourage it as much as i can.

That was a good flick. Enjoyed it very much. Not the greatest cinematic masterpiece ever, but quite entertaining, which is primarily why I go to the movies.

It was a long time ago I saw the anime of Alita.

I was having flashbacks all through the movie, it was reasonably faithful to the original as best I remember.

I found the big eyes less distracting than I thought they would be.

I have to say that some of the dialogue was not great for that character BUT Christoph Waltz was a surprisingly good choice for Dr. Dyson Ido and made the most of it.

It was worth it for me to see a show that reminded me of when I saw the "Rocket sledgehammer axe (maul)" for the first time as a kid.

I would say this was a much more successful remake than "ghost in the shell" by a long-shot.

Now I need to see "Trigun" or "Lupin the 3rd" as live action!

 Talizvar wrote:

Now I need to see "Trigun" or "Lupin the 3rd" as live action!

Casting Lupin feels like a fools errand to me, but the Angel Arms duel at the end of Trigun is probably among my favorite 15 minutes of anime ever.

I'm a big fan of Lupin the Third... but I don't think you could do anything close to true to the character and not come across as creepy borderline-rapist to the modern moviegoer.

Is the anime for Alita called something different? I can't find it anywhere.

 Ouze wrote:
Is the anime for Alita called something different? I can't find it anywhere.

Try Gunnm (the original Japanese name) or Haisha.

EDIT: FYI, there is no anime series for the manga. There is an OVA, which can be found on YouTube (its been on there for years posted by multiple users, I just assume the copyright holder doesn't care about an hour long OVA from 1993)

The original anime should be "Battle Angel" or "Battle Angel Alita" in dubbed/subbed english, or, in the original Japanese as "Gunnm"

EDIT: ninjad

Thank you both.

Somewhere I've got some of the original comic issued in the US by Viz Media (I think.) This was back in the early 90s.

The standard in those days was to flop all the artwork in a Japanese comic so the pages would read left to right as a western audience is used to.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Somewhere I've got some of the original comic issued in the US by Viz Media (I think.) This was back in the early 90s.

The standard in those days was to flop all the artwork in a Japanese comic so the pages would read left to right as a western audience is used to.

Making everyone left-handed in the process.

 Elemental wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Somewhere I've got some of the original comic issued in the US by Viz Media (I think.) This was back in the early 90s.

The standard in those days was to flop all the artwork in a Japanese comic so the pages would read left to right as a western audience is used to.

Making everyone left-handed in the process.

Unless it's a Zelda game on the Wii, then they make everyone right handed.

 LunarSol wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
I saw it twice now and cannot wait to see it in 3D as it is supposed to be good there.

I saw it in IMAX 3D, and I enjoyed it.

Thinking about it, this is a 3-quadrant movie:
* Young women (who will ID with Alita's Hero's Journey)
+ Older men (who ID with Ido being a good father)
+ Older women (who ID with Chiren and her redemptive journey)

Notably, it does not specifically appeal to young men, which is an odd choice, but understandable given how much dude-friendly programming is already out there; IMO, this should be getting more female butts in seats. OTOH, it's doing well in Asia, which makes sense, given how solid the FX are, along with the family theme, and winning fights via speed and skill vs size and strength.

I've heard this reaction to the movie a few times (still need to see the film myself) and whenever I watch something where I experience something like it I try to get a grasp on the idea that for a lot of people that's what everything else feels like. My daughter has a show she really likes with a token boy in the lineup that occasionally triggers that sense of "oh, that's what that's like". Probably the most notable example I've come across is Wonder Woman, where a female friend who goes to all the super hero movies with our group left the film asking "is that what all of these movies feel like for you guys?" I appreciate the perspective on it a the very least.

See, I always find that kind of reaction odd. To me, a good story is a good story, a good character a good character, a good concept a good concept. I don't need to personally identify with any of the characters, and it genuinely kind of baffles me why some folk do? I enjoyed Wonder Woman fine, just as I did Captain America, just as I did Black Panther - I didn't get anything extra out of Cap's films purely because he's a white dude.

 Yodhrin wrote:

See, I always find that kind of reaction odd. To me, a good story is a good story, a good character a good character, a good concept a good concept. I don't need to personally identify with any of the characters, and it genuinely kind of baffles me why some folk do? I enjoyed Wonder Woman fine, just as I did Captain America, just as I did Black Panther - I didn't get anything extra out of Cap's films purely because he's a white dude.

When it comes to this question, I try to bear in mind that I'm spoiled for choice, being a straight white guy--I don't know what it's like to be starved in my media diet for heroic characters (or sometimes, any characters) who are "people like me". Or to put it another way, I haven't been told over and over that "people like me" are not suitable to be heroes, romantic leads, the ones who get happy endings, non-villainous, etc.

It doesn't make a me a bad person, but it's a limit to my experience that I need to acknowledge, and I need to respect the viewpoints of others who find it frustrating.

Role models usually need to resemble to the people for whom they are models. This is because the role model is supposed to be proof that the target can realistically aspire to the same goals.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Role models usually need to resemble to the people for whom they are models. This is because the role model is supposed to be proof that the target can realistically aspire to the same goals.

And sometimes, it's not even about the character being a role model or setting any sort of positive example. Just getting the message that "someone like me" exists at all in this fictional world and get to do the same cool stuff as the straight white guys can be a good thing. I remember a panel I went to at a comics convention once about diversity in comics, and some of the speakers were talking about how they'd been growing up in the 70's or 80's and starting to realise that they liked their own gender....but there was nothing in the media they were consuming that so much as hinted that people like them even existed, unless you squinted real hard for "subtext".

Anyway, this is getting a bit OT.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Role models usually need to resemble to the people for whom they are models. This is because the role model is supposed to be proof that the target can realistically aspire to the same goals.

Particularly when you're young you're constantly looking for purpose and see people like you as examples of what you're supposed to be. I mean, how many pink fairy magic cupcake chef shows did we all latch onto as a kid? There are a lot of moments in fantasy that are so key on "seeing yourself" in the moment, like all the versions of going Super Saiyan out there. I see it pretty constantly with my daughter. I can tell her she can be whatever geeky thing I love over and over, but seeing Jessica with a power ring or Rey with a lightsaber causes her visualize it in a way that makes the fantasy as real to her as its always been to me.

But that's exactly what I'm saying - I've never needed that and I can't grasp why some people do. I mean, I'm not straight(but don't fall into one of the nice definable categories that people like) and I have an ASD, there are basically zero characters "like me" in fiction, and it never prevented me from "seeing myself" in those fictions because they're fantasies, and if someone is capable of inserting themselves into a fictional world where radiation turns you into a rage monster, the Nazis had a guy with a bright red skull for a face, there's a talking raccoon who likes building doomsday weapons etc, it baffles me that the part they have trouble with is "seeing themselves" in a lead character with the wrong dangly bits or skin tone.

That's not an argument *against* having leads with different dangly bits or skin tones, of course, I just don't grasp "representation" as a concept - a good story should resonate and inspire regardless of how much any given viewer personally has in common with the characters.

You are a bit unusual.

Most people do find it easier to identify with characters who resemble them.

No, I actually agree with Yodhrin there.

I'm Irish Hispanic and with the exception of Spiderman 2099 have ever seen anyone remotely resembling me in popular fiction.

I blame this lack of representation for the shattered wreck of a man I have become.

I think the approach to this is slightly off.

Resemble is a poor word in this case. Lots of people like characters that don't resemble them in the slightest. I think relatable is a better word, and what makes something relatable varies a lot among people and is incredibly nebulous. It doesn't even necessarily come down to characters per se. Settings, and plots can relate to the audience just as easily as the characters in them.

Race, sex, and orientation fall into this, but I do thing many people have a tendency to losing the forest for the trees.

This is such a weird tangent for this thread because both men and women like the character Alita and seemingly so do people of all races.

It’s almost as if facets like race and gender are actually somewhat superficial and have little bearing on what a character is really about or how they will be received.

But that has to be wrong because why would Hollywood and politicians lie to us???

 Manchu wrote:
This is such a weird tangent for this thread because both men and women like the character Alita and seemingly so do people of all races.

It’s almost as if facets like race and gender are actually somewhat superficial and have little bearing on what a character is really about or how they will be received.

But that has to be wrong because why would Hollywood and politicians lie to us???

I think its because the story is always more important, alita follows the heros journey archeotype and that is in every single culture in the world, we all recognise it almost subconsciously, so the race, gender etc. of the person that slots into that archeotype does not really matter, what matters is how they pull it off, if you make the character too flawless generally people do not like it so much, if you make it too flawed you get the same issue.

A good example of this is John Wick, they killed his dog, we later find out that the dog was a gift from his dead wife, so this very flawed character (he is an assassin after all) suddenly becomes a character we can root for and we understand why he is so angry that he kills all those people, his heros journey is all implied though, we assume he retired because he found his wife, so that link to a normal life is ripped from him, his only link to it is his dog, as soon as that link is gone, he reverts back to the kind of man we assumed he was.

Now take away the wife and dog, we now have a homicidal serial killer that is super kung fu gunfighter, its stupid, we wouldnt route for that, some might i am sure but the rest of us would wonder why he is randomly killing all these people because they stole his car.... no heros journey because he is no longer a hero.

 Formosa wrote:


I think its because the story is always more important, alita follows the heros journey archeotype and that is in every single culture in the world, we all recognise it almost subconsciously, so the race, gender etc. of the person that slots into that archeotype does not really matter, what matters is how they pull it off, if you make the character too flawless generally people do not like it so much, if you make it too flawed you get the same issue.

A good example of this is John Wick, they killed his dog, we later find out that the dog was a gift from his dead wife, so this very flawed character (he is an assassin after all) suddenly becomes a character we can root for and we understand why he is so angry that he kills all those people, his heros journey is all implied though, we assume he retired because he found his wife, so that link to a normal life is ripped from him, his only link to it is his dog, as soon as that link is gone, he reverts back to the kind of man we assumed he was.

Now take away the wife and dog, we now have a homicidal serial killer that is super kung fu gunfighter, its stupid, we wouldnt route for that, some might i am sure but the rest of us would wonder why he is randomly killing all these people because they stole his car.... no heros journey because he is no longer a hero.

I think this is a good way of looking at it.

How much race, sex, or orientation matter is probably down to the kind of story being told. In Alita it doesn't really matter, nor does it matter in a story like John Wick or Die Hard where the story and character appeals are kind of universal. On the other hand, you have stories like the Hate U Give or Love, Simon, where these things are a bit more significant because they're the story.

Another good example (really showing my nerdess here) is a movie called brotherhood.

Brotherhood of war (Taegukgi) is a quintessentially Korean movie that could only be Korean and could only have Koreans in it, they could do a western version sure, Band of brothers etc., but this film has such themes and feel that you simply could not use western actors to get the same result, another really good one is R-point but that does not have the same issue, its a standard horror film, i just bring it up because I think its good

Go watch both of these films, Brotherhood though is very graphic though so be warned.

 Yodhrin wrote:
But that's exactly what I'm saying - I've never needed that and I can't grasp why some people do. I mean, I'm not straight(but don't fall into one of the nice definable categories that people like) and I have an ASD, there are basically zero characters "like me" in fiction, and it never prevented me from "seeing myself" in those fictions because they're fantasies, and if someone is capable of inserting themselves into a fictional world where radiation turns you into a rage monster, the Nazis had a guy with a bright red skull for a face, there's a talking raccoon who likes building doomsday weapons etc, it baffles me that the part they have trouble with is "seeing themselves" in a lead character with the wrong dangly bits or skin tone.

That's not an argument *against* having leads with different dangly bits or skin tones, of course, I just don't grasp "representation" as a concept - a good story should resonate and inspire regardless of how much any given viewer personally has in common with the characters.

@yodrin:

Actually you are not alone yodrin. I'm rather surprised to see how positive this thread is and how err 'progressive' it is. I am autistic and my half sister constantly watches shows about autistic people. Personally while i'm ok with her trying to show support i try to tell her being autistic isn't my only feature and rather not the feature of me i'd like represented above all else. I'd prefer to be considered a gamer or a nerd/geek or even a science and math enthusiast, guy that makes some jokes or is a pervert. Literally anything i like is what i'd want to represent who i am or anything that takes skill from me. Being straight, gay, male or female takes zero skill to do. You are (i suppose usually) born this way and it takes no effort. That'd be like asking for support because you like the color 'red' or 'chocolate ice cream' or something absurd. I don't mind any of these sub-groups but if you want a real role model try to be what you would want in a role model. Role models are often flawed and as we see a lot get tangled up in all sorts of allegations of sexual or corrupt nature or similar whether real or fake (for instance i used to like thomas edison with his inventing till i found out he screwed over inventors and was a sham). Of course those are real-life role models whereas trying to be a make pretend female super-bot with ninja skills may not be a realistic role model to have. If you want her confidence then sure but some of what she is is rooted in story and trying to be what isn't real might not work out for you.

----------
As far as the movie goes.

It's a good movie. The aesthetic is good as well as the rest of the art. The story is alright. There are moments i really enjoyed from it

I feel like alita is not entirely but fairly mary sue. I get it's her background that she's lost tech but aside from the one time she was in a crappier body and probably got a bit too cocky (which even then she did fairly well) i never felt like she was in much danger. Don't get me wrong she has loved ones who aren't as invulnerable as she is and her enemies get at them. She also has loss from time to time (. It just feels like she only plays rollerball a few times and within those few times she goes from not knowing the game too well to destroying an entire gang of baddies trying to kill her solo while trying to save her boyfriend. Perhaps i feel like going from noob to best in the world should take at least a couple movies.

I appreciate the art style and the aesthetic of the universe as well as some of the story elements but mary sues just tend to be boring or at least with good guys.

----------

This might not be a popular opinion but of the movies i saw recently i actually preferred 'Glass'. Maybe it's just more my type of movie. Of course i only saw it by itself and not the movies that came before. I've always been a story vs art style person however. Well most of the time (40k is kinda style over story).

Liking the color red has never prevented you from getting married, caused bullying to a degree that there is a alarming spike in suicide attempts, or prevented you from voting. Or in other countries get you beheaded for existing or stoned to death for trying to go to school.

Saying being gay or a woman is a nothing feature that requires nothing or costs them nothing is incredibly short sighted and is oblivious to the lives they live.