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Bran Dawri wrote: I disagree. Captain Marvel most definitely did not avoid the first pitfall, and I wouldn't argue with someone who claimed it fell for both. Alita did manage to avoid both.
Of what pitfall are we talking about? Are we talkingg about the pitfall of lost memories or the pitfall of "Mary Sue". I personnaly think Alita fell face first in both, while Captain Marvel made a narrow dodge on one and fell in the other.
I was referring to the post above mine. First pitfall is "forget to give the character traits (or, heck, a personality) other than "strong", which CM definitely failed to do, while Alita dodged it, IMO.
The second one is a little harder to argue, but even there Alita stays much further away than CM, who manages to overshadow (or even completely not need) anyone beyond the need for plot exposition.
CM had personality traits besides "Strong". She was reckless. Abrasive. Hot headed. Shes also clearly nurturing with her friends and willing to sacrifice to protect them.
She gets captured in her first mission because she charges forward and gets caught. She can't follow orders. She grabs for her powers and uses them in destructive ways without thought for potential consequence like destroying the juke box instead of explaining things to Fury. It's played for laughs in the movie but those aspects of her personality are going to come back.
If you think in future movies that hot headedness isn't going to create more problems in the way getting captured made a problem for her in this movie then you are out of your mind. Hopefully she eventually learns from it. But right now, reckless I would say is her primary personality trait. Easily manipulated.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Agree to disagree. None of those "bad" consequences actually had bad consequences for her. Getting captured only served to further the plot, and a destroyed jukebox ain't exactly an important item to have destroyed, while not following orders is not necessarily a weak point. Cap, for example, does it all the time. Except for him there actually are consequences. His willingness to bear them for doing what's right is what makes him a hero.
But take away the consequences because the hero is too powerful, and all that's left is at worst an egotist, at best a character that's hard to root for because what's the point?
And what exactly was she willing to sacrifice? At no point was there any actual danger to her.
Bran Dawri wrote: I was referring to the post above mine. First pitfall is "forget to give the character traits (or, heck, a personality) other than "strong", which CM definitely failed to do, while Alita dodged it, IMO.
If I was to make a list of both character traits here is what I came up with.
Alita: she's determined, adventurous, impulsive, stubborn and selfless
In my opinion, Alita character traits are fundamentally utilitarian to the story. The things she finds fun (blood sports, fighting) are the things she needs to do to make the plot advance and are things at which she is naturally gifted with. Her personnality traits are basically a tool box for a hero. She needs to be determined, adventurous and stubborn to face challenges. She needs to be impulsive to place herself into trouble. Her selflessness and inate sense of justice is what is necessary to make her "good". Note that she doesn't seem to have learned or been thought her sense of justice and selflessness. Since Alita was "born" with all the tools and character traits to be hero, that makes her to my sense a more stereotypical hero. Her motivation to put her life at risk seem to be goodness itself. She hates injustice and is naturally attracted toward conflicts. That makes her a fairly standard hero's hero.
Captain Marvel character traits are, while very similar to those of Alita, less utilitarian. We know she likes things that are rather useless to her as a superhero. She enjoys karaoke, drinking with her friends and children. She also display more frequently character flaws. Her impulsiveness and abrasive personnality makes her come off as a jerk and she seem to be motivated by anger more than by an inate sense of justice even though she does have one. Captain Marvel appears to me more like a person. I have met people with similar personnality: angry, cocky, a bit show-off, but fundamentaly nice and caring underneath. Ironically, they were also soldiers (and one was a cop). Alita, to me, is more an archetypical hero (who talks like a teenager). In fact I would compare her more easily to Wonder Woman in terms of personnality. Both are more "iconic" superheroes, the hero of other heroes, then people with great power who uses them for a good cause.
The second one is a little harder to argue, but even there Alita stays much further away than CM, who manages to overshadow (or even completely not need) anyone beyond the need for plot exposition.
I don't think anybody gave much help to Alita beside her "father" who gave her a body to use (twice) and her boyfriend for helping her find a new body that links her to her past, but then again, he caused her about as much problem as he solved. The only big advantage of Alita next to Captain Marvel, is that the former actually sustained a defeat and needed to be rescued by her friends (more accurately, the cyber dog trainer and her "father"), but this failure has no consequence on Alita and seem to have been used as an excuse to give her immediately a "power-up". It didn't feel like a major event in the main character life anymore then her first fight against the villain. Alita didn't need any character to become a hero she did it against the will of her father for no other reason then for the sake of justice. Finding about her passed was completely irrelevent to the plot of hte movie. She could have remained oblivious to her passed as a URM elite soldier and still face the same antagonist for the same reason, but I suspect the sequel will throw this sideway.
Captain Marvel used the help of Fury who was essential in her avoiding capture, her friend Rambeau who was essential in recovering her memories and fighting off some bad guys. Unlike Alita's dead mentor, that of Carol was actually important to her and shaping her sense of morality. She imparts a mission and some values into her beside pure combat skills. The leader of the Skrull is also important both as an antagonist for the movie first part, but also as a moral compass in the second part and helded the key to her passed and her identity. Without several other characters, Captain Marvel would have remained oblivious to her passed and continued to serve loyally the Kree and the movie would have been radically different.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 18:16:45
Bran Dawri wrote: Agree to disagree. None of those "bad" consequences actually had bad consequences for her. Getting captured only served to further the plot, and a destroyed jukebox ain't exactly an important item to have destroyed, while not following orders is not necessarily a weak point. Cap, for example, does it all the time. Except for him there actually are consequences. His willingness to bear them for doing what's right is what makes him a hero.
But take away the consequences because the hero is too powerful, and all that's left is at worst an egotist, at best a character that's hard to root for because what's the point?
And what exactly was she willing to sacrifice? At no point was there any actual danger to her.
Do you mean when cap disobeyed orders in first avenger, raided the hydra base, saved the platoon, and then suffered the consequences of getting respect and leading a team of howling commandos? Or was that just furthering the plot?
When she stepped up to pilot the experimental craft for her mentor. A risky prospect on the best of days. That turned into an attack that ruined her life years.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Which is part of her past, not who she is now, after six years of Kree brainwashing. Even in the movie, it seems she onky remembers these things distantly, as if they happened to someone else. Even so, almost all of the flashbacks had one common theme they kept hammering in: this girl won't back down. She gets back on her feet and tries again. Ie, she's strong.
At no point did Fury seem necessary for her avoiding capture, as she could effortlessly plow through pretty much anything SHIELD could throw at her. Plus (spoiler alert) the person in charge of SHIELD wasn't the enemy.
And Cap's foray into the Hydra base eventually led to him being frozen in the ice. In TWS, his actions led to the destruction of SHIELD (and Hydra buried within, but still). In CW, they led to the Avengers breaking up and ended with him a fugitive.
Regardless of whether you think his actions were justified, there were real consequences, both for him and the people around him.
Cap disobeying orders did not create him being forzen in ice. HIS actions didn't create that scenerio. Red Skulls did.
Carols actions are the ones that got her captured by the kree. Then captured by the skrull. Then captured by the kree again.
The fact that she came out on top of each of those situations is every one of these movies. Only like... 4 of them have the protagonists walk away from the movie actually worse off then when they started.
Thor Ragnarok.
Infinity War.
Civil War. (Again, not Caps actions. Starks.)
What else.... Nope. Thats it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/17 20:40:24
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Neither of these characters struck me as mining the true depths of courage and self-sacrifice. At best they gave us Goku vs Cooler levels of power-up wish fulfillment, and that can be an enjoyable enough experience on its own.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Neither of these characters struck me as mining the true depths of courage and self-sacrifice. At best they gave us Goku vs Cooler levels of power-up wish fulfillment, and that can be an enjoyable enough experience on its own.
I agree with you on that. Neither character were really "good character", but I would say Captain Marvel was a bit better if only because the rather lackluster performance of Larson was better then the poor performance of Salazar which is a bit strange since both actress were known to do better.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Neither of these characters struck me as mining the true depths of courage and self-sacrifice. At best they gave us Goku vs Cooler levels of power-up wish fulfillment, and that can be an enjoyable enough experience on its own.
Agreed. I liked Alita better, but neither went far beyond enjoyable popcorn entertainment, while I felt CM fell a little short of even that. I suppose my expectations going into Alita were a little lower as it was an unknown quantity, while I felt CM fell short of the usual Marvel standard.
Not just in talent, but Cash and Tech. I know Alita was like 500 theatres less than How to Train Your Dragon at its best. I saw very little Promotion for Alita outside of Movie Previews. If not for those I would have never heard of it. Captain Marvel was all over the place with sneak peaks and such like all Marvel movies.
I agree we all have fond impressions of the MCU in general so every movie is a Sequal in one way ala Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. They have a built in fan base like us. It is trying to get those that don't like Comics, Nerd stuff, Sci-Fi to go and see it. MCU has cracked that barrier fairly well.
koooaei wrote: We are rolling so many dice to have less time to realise that there is not much else to the game other than rolling so many dice.
Not just in talent, but Cash and Tech. I know Alita was like 500 theatres less than How to Train Your Dragon at its best. I saw very little Promotion for Alita outside of Movie Previews. If not for those I would have never heard of it. Captain Marvel was all over the place with sneak peaks and such like all Marvel movies.
I agree we all have fond impressions of the MCU in general so every movie is a Sequal in one way ala Star Wars, Star Trek, etc. They have a built in fan base like us. It is trying to get those that don't like Comics, Nerd stuff, Sci-Fi to go and see it. MCU has cracked that barrier fairly well.
Alita did had little marketing, but is a popular manga (or so I heard). It's also a movie of James Cameron, one of the biggest name in Hollywood who is known to have produced several of the most loved science-fiction movie and to be a master of the visual spectacle. That certainly could attract crowds.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Neither of these characters struck me as mining the true depths of courage and self-sacrifice. At best they gave us Goku vs Cooler levels of power-up wish fulfillment, and that can be an enjoyable enough experience on its own.
I agree with you on that. Neither character were really "good character", but I would say Captain Marvel was a bit better if only because the rather lackluster performance of Larson was better then the poor performance of Salazar which is a bit strange since both actress were known to do better.
Interesting. My opinion is that Salazar did quite a bit better than Larson. I felt Alita seemed more... human... than Captain Marvel did.
Ah, well. Everyone has their own opinion, nothing says we have to have the SAME opinion!
Vulcan wrote: Interesting. My opinion is that Salazar did quite a bit better than Larson. I felt Alita seemed more... human... than Captain Marvel did.
Ah, well. Everyone has their own opinion, nothing says we have to have the SAME opinion!
Alita has a huge romance subplot which makes a more classic feminine character, the kind we are more used to see and relate to. I didn't clic with the romance plot of Alita, but clicked much more with the life story of Captain Marvel. Maybe this explains our difference in opinion.
I liked the romance plot in Alita because it felt pretty realistic. It’s a crush but at a certain age a crush is all one knows of love. When she holds out her heart to him, that’s a beautiful example of something Tolkien said about fictional characters — they get to be on the outside what we feel like on the inside (paraphrasing).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/03/19 07:09:19
I'm admittedly quite late to the party but I just watched this last night. I was initially turned off by the big goofy eyes in the first trailer (despite being a fan of anime since the mid 80s) as a faux live action effect so skipped it during the theatrical run. A recently returned interest in cyberpunk reminded me of this and I watched it. It's better than I expected and I quickly got used to the BESM effect on the main character model. Regarding the romance aspect, it was a bit contrived but didn't feel forced though IMO. She went full on creepy overly attached girlfriend like the YouTube skits from a few years ago but I like that it was jokingly referred to as such.
I don't currently have a 4k HDR setup as I'm still rocking my now outdated 2008 1080p LED dumb tv combo. For those with an upgraded system, would you consider Alita as a title that takes full advantage of that? It doesn't have to be a showcase for viewing tech like the 5th Element was in the 1990s but I'm curious if it'll be a worthwhile experience to rewatch if I upgrade. I'd expect that James Cameron spared no expense being associated with this but my opinion of him has somewhat soured in recent years.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
I tried watching it recently and had to stop as it appeared they wanted to do a whistle stop past loads of major plot points. Not for me since I still have to catch up with reading the manga first.
I've never been into manga in general and my last experience with Alita was watching the anime decades ago (iirc on vhs) so I'm coming at this from the perspective of a largely lapsed anime fan just wanting escapist entertainment.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Overread wrote: I tried watching it recently and had to stop as it appeared they wanted to do a whistle stop past loads of major plot points. Not for me since I still have to catch up with reading the manga first.
This. I started reading the manga out of curiosity, after the film came out and I missed it. The manga's fantastic, even if it does get a bit decompressed and crazy in places. But the film went the other way, cramming the first four volumes in a memberberry, I-saw-it-and-I-clapped kind of way. I'm not entirely sure the storyline was chopped up and tacked back together in a very coherent way, but I don't have much impetus to go back and check.
I am a big Alita fan, it was the first manga I read (as opposed to looking at the pictures) in Japanese and I even read all of Last Order.
If you've read Last Order you know how much of a commitment that took.
Why yes Mr Kishiro, I would like 200 pages of Karate Robots expounding on their personal philosophies. Oh you say we'll get more of the same in the next 3 volumes too? Well then, let's go.
(for the record Mars Chronicles is actually good as opposed to being a hollow echo of a once-great series. Shocked though it's on like book 6 and not much has happened, which goes to show how good the 9 books of Alita were.).
Anyway point being, I liked it. I would not upgrade my DVD player, TV and then pay $30 for the 4k disk however.
But I did like it. And would watch Alita 2 Electric Boogaloo.
Anyway point being, I liked it. I would not upgrade my DVD player, TV and then pay $30 for the 4k disk however.
But I did like it. And would watch Alita 2 Electric Boogaloo.
Fwiw, at least in the US, it's $20 for the 4k UHD HDR disc as a standard price... And it comes with a normal bluray and a 3d bluray and a code for a digital copy. I just bought it this weekend at Best Buy (same price at Wal-Mart but they were seemingly out... Hard to tell as their DVD section was so disorganized that it looked like it was hit by a hurricane and looters simultaneously). I don't have a 4k setup but for $3 over the normal bluray/DVD/digital combo and $5 over the only the DVD it was worth it just to futureproof potentially.
Edit: Apparently I chose wisely (due to sheer dumb luck) for my first ever 4k purchase according to one of the two Youtubers that I'm subbed to in the media review space. The other was also happy with it although not to this extent.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/07/27 18:33:21
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
The romance was perfect IMO in that we’ve all been there, thinking that a minor infatuation is a much bigger deal, making fools of ourselves. I enjoyed seeing a teenage female protagonist unreservedly portrayed as a horndog, which is the most actually progressive thing I’ve seen from Hollywood when it comes to “representation of women.“
If you've not read it the romance in the Manga (Book 2 IIRC) is even better and more heart breaking since we don't have the origin and roller derby stories going on at the same time.
Again, I really recommend the original 9 book series. It'll make you want to learn Japanese so you can read the next book before it's translated.
I'd have preferred if she had gone even further away from the "perfect doll" (pun intended) role model trope and don't think that would have detracted from her strong (both mentally and physically) persona.
I know it's not authentic to the manga/anime but I really liked a semi-alternate ending that they initially had planned but it sounds like it was cut to maintain her pure heroine status. Initially, she was supposed to continue to go bezerk (she is after all a UDM Bezerker!) after killing Vector and try to finish her original mission by going up the pipe to the Zalem and Hugo was supposed to be the one to follow her and talk her down. In the end, the pipe cleaner would still come down and cut him to shreds and she'd try (and fail) to save him but I think it would have been a more meaningful progression of her character arc to explicityly completely embrace and then disavow her bezerker heritage than the movie ending we actually got.
I've heard that she's a more complex character and goes through those beats in the obviously longer manga stories so I'm not saying it's a blanket better choice in all mediums but rather one that I think would have been better for a 2 hour movie story arc. Of course, I'm coming at this from an uncharacteristically filthy casual/normie perspective so YMMV.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/07/29 15:53:45
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: If you've not read it the romance in the Manga (Book 2 IIRC) is even better and more heart breaking since we don't have the origin and roller derby stories going on at the same time.
(and there aren't 3-4 villains to distract, as if this was a late 90s Batman film)
Again, I really recommend the original 9 book series. It'll make you want to learn Japanese so you can read the next book before it's translated.
When I went to Japan they'd only translated up to book 4 or 5.
As for now there's the original 9 books (***** awesome), 19 (I think) books in the Last Order Sequel (*** readable but drags), the Ashen Victor side story, the tales of book, and 5 or 6 volumes of Mars Chronicles (****, good character progression, ongoing).
I'd gladly pick up the next book of Mars Chronicles in Japanese if I came across it.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: and 5 or 6 volumes of Mars Chronicles (****, good character progression, ongoing).
I'd gladly pick up the next book of Mars Chronicles in Japanese if I came across it.
Aah. I'd gotten to the end of MC book 6 and somehow got the impression that was it. I thought it was a bit weird considering where the 'present day' stuff left off.
Gotta go, they're calling me back to the room with the nice soft walls.
(and there aren't 3-4 villains to distract, as if this was a late 90s Batman film)
