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2017/12/14 19:49:56
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Nobody has mentioned Tau yet. I have a few defenses against smite, like 6+ FNP from ethereals (and I have to get 1st turn to get that defense up), stim injectors (why would you take these when you have ATS/Target lock/shield gens..) and at best the shield drone with 5+ FNP.
Getting dumped on by ~6d3 smites (playing vs Eldar) + executioner (d3 + d3 mortal wounds) is a huge kick in the dick.
I'm fine with mortal wounds being good and all, but entire armies (DE, Necrons, Tau, to name a few) just NOT participating in a phase and removing models without saves/deny the witch sucks, and is not fun
2017/12/14 20:44:00
Subject: Re:Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Another factor in the smite debate and the presence of invulnerable saves: people keep defending invuln saves, saying they're weaker than they were in the past, and characterizing smite as solving a problem that doesn't exist. By and large though, characters have more wounds than they did in 7th edition, so while the invuln save may be worse, it still takes more oomph to chip a character away. As is, smite is an important tool, and while it doesn't allow for counterplay in every situation, it's not a sledgehammer either (well, except for in a couple situations on undercosted psykers.)
Except you aren't taking into account that multi-damage weapons are all over the place. Characters in 8th, once they're targetable, drop like chumps compared to last edition. Even G man, the upper end of protected characters, drops like a rock as soon as you start pumping lascannons into him.
As we keep saying, the days of amazing defense monsters with eternal warrior taking 1 wound from everything while using look out sir to a cheap unit to give them amazing staying power are over. If you are having a problem with tough units with good defenses, you aren't bringing enough multi damage weapons. Smite and other MW sources aren't necessary in the least.
They're just a mechanic that was terribly designed in what I consider to be an otherwise ok edition that can't be balanced by points, because either your army is ok against MW's, or your army has to be reduced in cost so much to be ok against MW's that it's overpowered against everything else.
I mean imagone trying to point cost necrons if all eldar attacks ignored their reanimation, saves, and quantum shielding. You can't. Either they're going to be underpowered against eldar and ok against others, or you reduce their cost to make them ok against eldar and they're absolutely ridic against everyone else.
prendeho wrote: Nobody has mentioned Tau yet. I have a few defenses against smite, like 6+ FNP from ethereals (and I have to get 1st turn to get that defense up), stim injectors (why would you take these when you have ATS/Target lock/shield gens..) and at best the shield drone with 5+ FNP.
Getting dumped on by ~6d3 smites (playing vs Eldar) + executioner (d3 + d3 mortal wounds) is a huge kick in the dick.
I'm fine with mortal wounds being good and all, but entire armies (DE, Necrons, Tau, to name a few) just NOT participating in a phase and removing models without saves/deny the witch sucks, and is not fun
Tau have drones. Practically the best defense against Mortal Wounds.
Did you manage to get close enough to my Tau Commander to inflict 2 Mortal wounds? Cool, I'll have these two drones eat them.
prendeho wrote: Nobody has mentioned Tau yet. I have a few defenses against smite, like 6+ FNP from ethereals (and I have to get 1st turn to get that defense up), stim injectors (why would you take these when you have ATS/Target lock/shield gens..) and at best the shield drone with 5+ FNP.
Getting dumped on by ~6d3 smites (playing vs Eldar) + executioner (d3 + d3 mortal wounds) is a huge kick in the dick.
I'm fine with mortal wounds being good and all, but entire armies (DE, Necrons, Tau, to name a few) just NOT participating in a phase and removing models without saves/deny the witch sucks, and is not fun
Tau have drones. Practically the best defense against Mortal Wounds.
Did you manage to get close enough to my Tau Commander to inflict 2 Mortal wounds? Cool, I'll have these two drones eat them.
Plus he's sinking ~350 points into psykers to get 6 smites and an executioner. That's 350 points of psychic damage that is limited to 18" range and auto targets the closest thing. Plus, he's either walking most of that across the table or else putting it in a transport that you can strand in his deployment zone. Or he's deepstriking it in a transport, in which case you have a turn to reposition and/or kill the tank.
Granted, smite is pretty great against commander spam, but commander spam is a temporary crutch that is indicative of poor balance and will hopefully be less of a thing in a couple months.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2017/12/15 09:28:10
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
v0iddrgn wrote: Smite is fine as is. It is incredibly short ranged and can only hurt units that are closest which emphasizes movement strategy. The problem is cheap (<70 point) psykers that can be spammed with Supreme Command Detachments and the like. Also, I'm firmly in the "Mortal Wounds are Necessary" camp.
They absolutely are not necessary. The things that needed them vanished with the edition change.
Nope, they're just hiding in the shadows of the horde problem.
Anyway, just say it like it is: "I want my overpowered elite units back, with no counters to Invul save because that's how it was 10 years ago".
2017/12/15 10:14:54
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
You may also want to check any scenerio's deployment rules if you are using the books scenerio. IIRC if you go 1st and he does not have any troops on the board by the end of your turn then you win automatically (some one else will have to say if this is correct or not and where that rule comes from but I'm pretty sure that it's right).
The auto win comes into affect at the end of turn 2, rather than turn 1. This gives the player going first who holds off part of his army in reserve has a chance when faced with a powerful alpha/beta strike.
2017/12/15 12:24:00
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
ATM the toughest non LOW to kill in the game is a kraken tervigon with the chameleonic bio artefact, adaptive biology warlord trait, catalyst cast on it, and standing near a malanthrope and in cover.
14 wounds, toughness 8, 2+/5+++ save, -2 to hit, and -1 damage after the first phase it takes damage.
Pretty sure no other non LOW is as tough to kill. Granted he can be shot at from across the board, but with -2 to hit and toughness 8 only str 9 D6 damage weapons really threaten him.
Takes almost an average of 50 lazcannon shots from marines to kill him on turn 1.
Granted this doesnt take rerolls or BS2 into account but yeah.
If you don't kill him the first round its far worse since he has -1 damage from multi-damage weapons.
Points cost for this is 383 points. He's also basically immune to small arms fire.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/15 12:26:44
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2017/12/15 12:46:54
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
v0iddrgn wrote: Smite is fine as is. It is incredibly short ranged and can only hurt units that are closest which emphasizes movement strategy. The problem is cheap (<70 point) psykers that can be spammed with Supreme Command Detachments and the like. Also, I'm firmly in the "Mortal Wounds are Necessary" camp.
They absolutely are not necessary. The things that needed them vanished with the edition change.
Nope, they're just hiding in the shadows of the horde problem.
Anyway, just say it like it is: "I want my overpowered elite units back, with no counters to Invul save because that's how it was 10 years ago".
Citation needed. And I play BA sir. I haven't had an overpowered or even survivable unit for its points in over half a decade. Nice try with the bait though.
v0iddrgn wrote: Smite is fine as is. It is incredibly short ranged and can only hurt units that are closest which emphasizes movement strategy. The problem is cheap (<70 point) psykers that can be spammed with Supreme Command Detachments and the like. Also, I'm firmly in the "Mortal Wounds are Necessary" camp.
They absolutely are not necessary. The things that needed them vanished with the edition change.
Nope, they're just hiding in the shadows of the horde problem.
Anyway, just say it like it is: "I want my overpowered elite units back, with no counters to Invul save because that's how it was 10 years ago".
Smite spam is part of the horde problem. If hordes did not have auto-wounds backing them then there are a bunch of assault units that could be natural counters to them. Those counters are removed by smite because it takes several turns to grind down the horde.
2017/12/15 15:38:57
Subject: Re:Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Gene St. Ealer wrote: Another factor in the smite debate and the presence of invulnerable saves: people keep defending invuln saves, saying they're weaker than they were in the past, and characterizing smite as solving a problem that doesn't exist. By and large though, characters have more wounds than they did in 7th edition, so while the invuln save may be worse, it still takes more oomph to chip a character away. As is, smite is an important tool, and while it doesn't allow for counterplay in every situation, it's not a sledgehammer either (well, except for in a couple situations on undercosted psykers.)
Except you aren't taking into account that multi-damage weapons are all over the place. Characters in 8th, once they're targetable, drop like chumps compared to last edition. Even G man, the upper end of protected characters, drops like a rock as soon as you start pumping lascannons into him.
As we keep saying, the days of amazing defense monsters with eternal warrior taking 1 wound from everything while using look out sir to a cheap unit to give them amazing staying power are over. If you are having a problem with tough units with good defenses, you aren't bringing enough multi damage weapons. Smite and other MW sources aren't necessary in the least.
They're just a mechanic that was terribly designed in what I consider to be an otherwise ok edition that can't be balanced by points, because either your army is ok against MW's, or your army has to be reduced in cost so much to be ok against MW's that it's overpowered against everything else.
I mean imagone trying to point cost necrons if all eldar attacks ignored their reanimation, saves, and quantum shielding. You can't. Either they're going to be underpowered against eldar and ok against others, or you reduce their cost to make them ok against eldar and they're absolutely ridic against everyone else.
You can't just blow past the "once they're targetable" caveat; that's a big deal. In fact, with the new rules on targeting characters, these elite units get even more defense. The play and counterplay involving positioning is actually one of the more nuanced aspects of 8th, and smite is definitely a part of that. As long as those restrictions are in place, I think it remains a tool in the meta that some armies need to make use of.
2017/12/15 15:56:46
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
I thought this thread might be interesting as I am in the same position as the OP; not seeing the problem.
Unfortunately no one in this thread has provided any evidence to show that smite spam is an issue. It's all anecdotes about bad match ups or waffley theory hammer what ifs.
If you want to demonstrate that smite spam is a problem (post chapter approved) you need to post tournament results that show smite spam armies dominating. That is the closest you will get to some objective fact about it.
Failing that you could post a list that spams smite so that everyone can look at it and go "OMG my army could never beat that!".
I would also like to add that Sprirtseers are the best smite spammers in the game right now but, despite using them extensively, I almost never cast smite with them.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/15 16:01:28
2017/12/15 16:20:58
Subject: Re:Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Here is an AM psyker spam list. 6 full size psykers in a 1k list. I didnt bother picking different psykana disciplines,and optimizing the list, just an example. Two psykers and one inf squad are in a chimera, transports advance and pop smoke. Next turn all pop out and psykers spam their powers. Chimeras and inf squads act as shields for the psykers.
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 66pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [14pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 66pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [14pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts]
v0iddrgn wrote: Smite is fine as is. It is incredibly short ranged and can only hurt units that are closest which emphasizes movement strategy. The problem is cheap (<70 point) psykers that can be spammed with Supreme Command Detachments and the like. Also, I'm firmly in the "Mortal Wounds are Necessary" camp.
They absolutely are not necessary. The things that needed them vanished with the edition change.
Nope, they're just hiding in the shadows of the horde problem.
Anyway, just say it like it is: "I want my overpowered elite units back, with no counters to Invul save because that's how it was 10 years ago".
Citation needed. And I play BA sir. I haven't had an overpowered or even survivable unit for its points in over half a decade. Nice try with the bait though.
Codex Space Marine had 2+ saves, on T5, with Jink and Storm Shield saves.
They still have 2+/3++ Terminators.
Blood Angels had sanguinary Priests giving out FNP.
If you want to win a pissing contest about losing survivability try playing 8E Necrons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 16:41:15
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: I thought this thread might be interesting as I am in the same position as the OP; not seeing the problem.
Unfortunately no one in this thread has provided any evidence to show that smite spam is an issue. It's all anecdotes about bad match ups or waffley theory hammer what ifs.
If you want to demonstrate that smite spam is a problem (post chapter approved) you need to post tournament results that show smite spam armies dominating. That is the closest you will get to some objective fact about it.
Failing that you could post a list that spams smite so that everyone can look at it and go "OMG my army could never beat that!".
I would also like to add that Sprirtseers are the best smite spammers in the game right now but, despite using them extensively, I almost never cast smite with them.
I'm not sure I agree that spirtseers are the best smite spammers (they are the cheapest by a point) if only because they lack access to a super cheap screen of bodies. I'm far less worried about smite spam if I can directly engage the psykers, and if you are paying for say guardians to protect your spirit seers your smite base costs far more than it would for Guard. In fact if we include screeinging units Malefic lords are basically as good at spamming smite as spirit seers are now, because they have access to cheaper screening units.
guardians are as cheap as it gets for a screen in eldar so you are paying a 40-50 point premium (per 10 models) on your screen compared to Chaos or guard. Maybe a little less than that if they are using pox walkers (20 points at that point). So if we assume that if you want to spam 5 smite psykers and say 50 screening models (most screens are larger than that in armies I have seen spamming smite) Guard is paying 230 points for 5 Primaris psykers + 200 points for their screen = 430 points. Eldar is paying 225 points for spirit seers + 400 points for their screen = 625 points. CSM is paying 400 points for psykers + 150(brims)-200(cultists)(300 if pox walkers) points for their screen = 550-600(700) So if we account for the screen Guard is by far the most points efficient with eldar the least efficient, this gets much worse if you want larger 100 man screens as some armies have been using.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
p5freak wrote: Here is an AM psyker spam list. 6 full size psykers in a 1k list. I didnt bother picking different psykana disciplines,and optimizing the list, just an example. Two psykers and one inf squad are in a chimera, transports advance and pop smoke. Next turn all pop out and psykers spam their powers. Chimeras and inf squads act as shields for the psykers.
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 66pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [14pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 66pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [14pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts]
That isn't even a very good list, more infantry squads, different heavy weapons and a couple Basilisks instead of chimeras and you have a real problem army.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 16:41:35
2017/12/15 16:45:58
Subject: Re:Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
p5freak wrote: Here is an AM psyker spam list. 6 full size psykers in a 1k list. I didnt bother picking different psykana disciplines,and optimizing the list, just an example. Two psykers and one inf squad are in a chimera, transports advance and pop smoke. Next turn all pop out and psykers spam their powers. Chimeras and inf squads act as shields for the psykers.
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 66pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [14pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts]
Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 66pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [26pts]: Lascannon [20pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team [14pts]: Heavy bolter [8pts]
That doesn't seem so bad. It's a decent amount of armor for 1k, but I'd only have to kill the Russ and 6 heavy weapons teams to basically neuter your ranged offense. I typically run dark reapers and a night spinner these days, so I feel like I can probably kill all your big guns by the end of turn 2 pretty reliably while keeping my distance from any approaching psykers. I can probably spare a cheap screen to eat your smite the first turn you come out of the chimeras. Your guardsman screens are squishy, so they should evaporate the turn after they disembark. Then I just have to toss any old unit into melee with your psykers and chimeras. The chimeras will effectively be silenced for a bit, and I stand decent odds of murderizing the psykers over the course of a couple turns. If I take a farseer as an HQ (to guide and probably mind war as needed), then I stand a good chance of shutting down 1 or 2 smites each turn. If I happen to take rangers as one of my troops, I might get lucky and kill off psykers even faster.
So basically, focus on your big guns turn 1 and 2, clear out disembarked infantry screens turns 2 and 3. Turns 3 and 4, I take some damage as a few smites and chimera shots get through, but at that point I'm basically just having to finish off the psykers. After that, it's mop up.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
2017/12/15 17:23:36
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Martel732 wrote: Of course, they are slow, don't shoot at all, and have very expensive transport options.
I think this is why I forgot about them, they strike me as far too expensive to be effective given their drawbacks. Maybe deep striking them with a librarian to cast Veil of Time on them, but then it's even more expensive (~365) and they'll still probably only be able to charge a screen unit. Even with those saves dedicated firepower will bring them down, whether you have smite or not. I don't really see why smite is needed to counter a unit like this.
2500 pts Raven Guard, painted
2017/12/15 17:43:47
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
So, one of the problems i have with smite is there is absolutely no flavor behind it.
I would much prefer every faction or discipline getting their own primaris power to spam, rather than a bland mindbullet power.
And on that same vein, you've got Primaris Psykers, which cast the power better than Grand Master Voldus. From a lore standpoint that's gross, and from a game balance standpoint that's also gross, a 200 point psyker sucks at smiting while a 50 point psyker is ballsout awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also, that Kraken Tervigon is a perfect example of what smite is for....
I don't understand this statement... could you clarify?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 17:47:25
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/12/15 17:47:44
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Blood Angels had sanguinary Priests giving out FNP.
If you want to win a pissing contest about losing survivability try playing 8E Necrons.
Survivability is tied to cost, though, and terminators are sooo expensive.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Martel732 wrote: Why bother? The smites won't get to target that thing against a good Tyranid player. Ever.
Does it matter? You can target it with anti-tank already, erasing its save.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/15 17:49:56
Galas wrote: I remember when Marmatag was a nooby, all shiney and full of joy. How playing the unbalanced mess of Warhammer40k in a ultra-competitive meta has changed you
Bharring wrote: He'll actually *change his mind* in the presence of sufficient/sufficiently defended information. Heretic.
2017/12/15 17:51:25
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Unit1126PLL wrote: *Talks about TH/SS terminators and not about the damn near unkillable unit mentioned above*
Probably because smite doesn't counter him, like, at all? Besides auto hitting I suppose, but he'll have SITW almost doubling your odds of failing the smite (6/36 to 10/36 chance to fail) and, most likely, at least a hive tyrant or two denying vs your roll-1. And then after all that he gets a 5+ save against all the mortal wounds.
There are very few armies that can honestly complain that much about psykers being un-counterable in 8th. Dark Eldar for sure, Tau even more (though as mentioned ubiquitous drones help the tau) and arguably necrons have very few units though they do have a universal defense in res protocols.
TH/ss terminators are counterd by smite. But they're not bad because of smite. They're bad because of how incredibly easy it is to screen them away from stuff that's actually valuable.
Which is kind of the theme of the whole thread: Missing the real core of the problem (no good anti-infantry weapons existing in the game+really broken character targeting restrictions leading to the current Hordes+Characters meta) and complaining about something that SEEMS really broken (taking wounds you can never ever not in a milion years get a save against or block, except when you can of course.)
"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"
2017/12/15 17:58:37
Subject: Explain to Wyldhunt Why Smite is a Problem
Unit1126PLL wrote: Also, that Kraken Tervigon is a perfect example of what smite is for....
Except it is a terrible example of what smite is for. It has FNP which is a save against smite. So on average every 3 smites does 4 wounds to it? It also has shadows in the warp and is a backfield unit so screening it (with gaunts it literally spawns) is easy. You'd be better off shooting it with lascannons.
So point in fact smite is significantly better against TH/SS terminators than that Tervigon. Because they are a unit that needs to be on the front fighting to do anything, have no save (unless Iron Hands) against wounds from smite.
The issue is that the fix to units like that tervigon is to not allow them to be created in the first place, because anything you make to kill it (unless very specific) does as much or worse to less unkillable units. This was the problem with say stomp in the past, or D weapons. They were perfectly good answers to things like Screamer star, but they murdered all the other options as well.
Unit1126PLL wrote: *Talks about TH/SS terminators and not about the damn near unkillable unit mentioned above*
Probably because smite doesn't counter him, like, at all? Besides auto hitting I suppose, but he'll have SITW almost doubling your odds of failing the smite (6/36 to 10/36 chance to fail) and, most likely, at least a hive tyrant or two denying vs your roll-1. And then after all that he gets a 5+ save against all the mortal wounds.
There are very few armies that can honestly complain that much about psykers being un-counterable in 8th. Dark Eldar for sure, Tau even more (though as mentioned ubiquitous drones help the tau) and arguably necrons have very few units though they do have a universal defense in res protocols.
TH/ss terminators are counterd by smite. But they're not bad because of smite. They're bad because of how incredibly easy it is to screen them away from stuff that's actually valuable.
Which is kind of the theme of the whole thread: Missing the real core of the problem (no good anti-infantry weapons existing in the game+really broken character targeting restrictions leading to the current Hordes+Characters meta) and complaining about something that SEEMS really broken (taking wounds you can never ever not in a milion years get a save against or block, except when you can of course.)
Smite adds to the horde problem, because it murders those TH/SS termies while they try to get through said screen. If you had 5 TH/SS termies, assault a screen. 5 smites is fairly likely to kill the entire squad.
Makes me kind of hope GK get full smite at that time (or ignore this rule) otherwise they become even worse. Beyond that I like that as a potential fix.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/15 18:10:46
20000+ points
2500 pts Raven Guard, painted 
