Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I think GW's own website already kind of shows AOS in some light; you've got grand alliances but several factions are horribly mashed up within there. Elves are an utter mess right now in terms of how they are presented to the potential interested new player.
Honestly I think that Sigma needs the 40K treatment now and would greatly benefit from a big release of new rules for all factions updated with making the grand alliances a softer aspect and bringing back the stricter division and identity of factions in both lore and product display to customers.
Early Sigma was very much a "throw everything you own on the table" affair. Basically Apoc for fantasy. It was the extreme reaction of the culture of GW at the time and, as an extreme example showed how it was a very flawed approach to miniature business in the long run. In my view it took approaches (eg apoc and wide alliances) which worked as sales drives alongside formal rules; and took it to the extreme view of "Well lets get rid of the whole strict rules side and just focus purely on the bit that generates the biggest spikes in sales."
They repaired it a lot with the Generals Handbook; but I feel that they've still got a long long way to go. Also the lore aspect was a mess; they had no real need to remove the old lore to intorduce the new game approach; but they did and its kind of destroyed the lore totally. I think GW either has to backpeddle or invest a lot in rebuilding fantasy.
That said based on their work with 40K I'm very optimistic that they are now in a good position to do just that. Granted I think rank and file is gone; but who knows all they'd need is some square/rectangular premade bases with round slots to hold the new round bases and rank and file could easily come back. Even if not I think they can build upon what they've got now with Sigma. It would be fantastic to see fantasy return to its glory and strength.
Overread wrote: I think GW's own website already kind of shows AOS in some light; you've got grand alliances but several factions are horribly mashed up within there. Elves are an utter mess right now in terms of how they are presented to the potential interested new player.
Honestly I think that Sigma needs the 40K treatment now and would greatly benefit from a big release of new rules for all factions updated with making the grand alliances a softer aspect and bringing back the stricter division and identity of factions in both lore and product display to customers.
Early Sigma was very much a "throw everything you own on the table" affair. Basically Apoc for fantasy. It was the extreme reaction of the culture of GW at the time and, as an extreme example showed how it was a very flawed approach to miniature business in the long run. In my view it took approaches (eg apoc and wide alliances) which worked as sales drives alongside formal rules; and took it to the extreme view of "Well lets get rid of the whole strict rules side and just focus purely on the bit that generates the biggest spikes in sales."
This is exactly what is happening, for what it is worth. Everything is becoming more battletome focused, with the option for allies. Or you can go for the Grand Alliance approach. I think the balance between rigid and broad factions is handled much better than in 40k. There are strong advantages to staying in faction, but not universally.
Everyone realises a lot of those mini factions are a joke - the firebelly faction that has exactly one model sums it up - they are mostly legacy stuff that is being cleaned up as new books are released. I suspect there are several they would rather just get rid of altogether but that remain for the sake of people already owning the model (which is a good thing!).
They repaired it a lot with the Generals Handbook; but I feel that they've still got a long long way to go. Also the lore aspect was a mess; they had no real need to remove the old lore to intorduce the new game approach; but they did and its kind of destroyed the lore totally. I think GW either has to backpeddle or invest a lot in rebuilding fantasy.
That said based on their work with 40K I'm very optimistic that they are now in a good position to do just that. Granted I think rank and file is gone; but who knows all they'd need is some square/rectangular premade bases with round slots to hold the new round bases and rank and file could easily come back. Even if not I think they can build upon what they've got now with Sigma. It would be fantastic to see fantasy return to its glory and strength.
The lore aspect is building up nicely now. They clearly made a huge mistake in how they handled the transition. Whilst they won't admit it publicly (understandably), they clearly are regretful for that. As it is the new world is far, far better. Allows for greater creativity. Also worth noting that the entire old world can exist within the AOS. Everything that made it great fits within AOS and more. Obviously it takes time to build. But let's also not pretend the Old World was some marvellous, original world either.
There will be no more rank and flanks. But big units of infantry are very, very viable. I do miss the sight of ranked infantry, but everything else from playing with them to painting them is not missed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/18 13:18:41
I really hope GW can put power behind fantasy; it would be great to see a lot of its line leave the "online order only" block and to see armies bolstered back up to size; since they basically gutted a lot of models (Wood elves lost a huge portion of their army choices since htey were still being sold in metal)
I know there was fan rage and anecdotes but is there any hard info?
No hard info no, GWcoincidentally stopped reporting that kind of info right around the time AoS launched. .
Pretty sure they've never actually offered a 'by range' breakdown on their reports.
Certainly that's been the case since at least 2006/2007
In my opinion your best bet is to wait another month and see how they describe 8th ed 40k in their report (to get an idea how GW treats a successful game launch these days) and then go back two years and see what the report has to say about Age of Sigmar in a period of continued declining profit.
The investor reports are about as close as we can get to GW's evaluation of Age of Sigmar's (lack of) initial success.
Overread wrote: I think GW's own website already kind of shows AOS in some light; you've got grand alliances but several factions are horribly mashed up within there. Elves are an utter mess right now in terms of how they are presented to the potential interested new player.
Honestly I think that Sigma needs the 40K treatment now and would greatly benefit from a big release of new rules for all factions updated with making the grand alliances a softer aspect and bringing back the stricter division and identity of factions in both lore and product display to customers.
Early Sigma was very much a "throw everything you own on the table" affair. Basically Apoc for fantasy. It was the extreme reaction of the culture of GW at the time and, as an extreme example showed how it was a very flawed approach to miniature business in the long run. In my view it took approaches (eg apoc and wide alliances) which worked as sales drives alongside formal rules; and took it to the extreme view of "Well lets get rid of the whole strict rules side and just focus purely on the bit that generates the biggest spikes in sales."
They repaired it a lot with the Generals Handbook; but I feel that they've still got a long long way to go. Also the lore aspect was a mess; they had no real need to remove the old lore to intorduce the new game approach; but they did and its kind of destroyed the lore totally. I think GW either has to backpeddle or invest a lot in rebuilding fantasy.
That said based on their work with 40K I'm very optimistic that they are now in a good position to do just that. Granted I think rank and file is gone; but who knows all they'd need is some square/rectangular premade bases with round slots to hold the new round bases and rank and file could easily come back. Even if not I think they can build upon what they've got now with Sigma. It would be fantastic to see fantasy return to its glory and strength.
I think the biggest damage to Age of Sigmar is the half-assed destruction of Fantasy. I never got the impression Age of Sigmar was its own thing until the sky dorfs were released, a faction that can claim to be a purely Age of Sigmar thing. There are too many armies that remind people of what they lost and not enough that show the potential of the new setting.
I can understand that from a practical point GW wanted to have a large selection of models from the start, but if they had to insist on such a drastic cut, they should have gone the whole way and genuinely made Age of Sigmar its own thing with completely new designs instead of adding a few new trees to the existing forest (both literally and figuratively).
I don't think a bout of new rules will do Age of Sigmar that much good because if you accept the rules foundation that exists, the game isn't in too bad a place from what I can see. The biggest issue with Grand Alliances isn't the rules per se, but that Death and Destruction are made up of one and two Fantasy armies respectively. It's like Imperium versus Tau or Necrons in 8th ed. It's the variety of available models that make Imperial Soup a thing, because those rules only exist because the models do. I have my doubts GW is willing to sacrifice cross sales by reigning in Age of Sigmar armies into their old factions.
I have my doubts that GW will backpedal on the lore. They are happy to license out Fantasy to video game developers, so I wouldn't rule out Fantasy coming back in some fashion as a Specialist game, and if it's only Mordheim, but there's a big honking Sigmarine statue in Nottingham that says Age of Sigmar is here to stay no matter what.
Apparently they have improved on the background in the meantime, and if it's only because they managed to accumulate enough to flesh out the setting beyond the "use your imagination" stage. You could read the jump to the free cities after the liberation of the Realmgate Wars as a return to the world we know from Fantasy, just, you know, grander and fantasticker and Sigmarier with cities the size of a continent, but at least they seem to have realized there needs to be more at stake than who wins a whacking contest between golden super buff dudes with hammers and red super buff dudes with axes.
Going by what Mr. Hewitt said, things may actually be a little more in the hands of actual game developers again. So perhaps they'll make something of Age of Sigmar after all.
Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone?
Overread wrote: I really hope GW can put power behind fantasy; it would be great to see a lot of its line leave the "online order only" block and to see armies bolstered back up to size; since they basically gutted a lot of models (Wood elves lost a huge portion of their army choices since htey were still being sold in metal)
Yeah...that's not why Wood Elves "lost a huge portion of their army choices".
We lost:
Treekin(Finecast), Orion(Finecast), Waywatchers as a unit(Metal), Wardancers(Finecast and/or Metal...I can't recall on these ones), Shadowdancer(Finecast), Deepwood Scouts(Never had a kit, you were supposed to build them from the Glade Guard kit), Glade Riders(Plastic), Dryads(Plastic--went into Sylvaneth), Drycha(Finecast, she's still sold as a Branchwraith for Sylvaneth), Great Eagles(Finecast kit--really old kit at that), Treeman(Plastic--went into Sylvaneth), the Sisters of Twilight on their Forest Dragon(Plastic/Finecast kit IIRC--most likely the reason for its retirement is that they no longer had workable frames for the Forest Dragon as that was a really old kit), Glade Lord on Forest Dragon(Plastic/Metal kit--also incredibly old and wasn't sold for ages before AoS even happened), Glade Lord on Purebred Steed(Plastic/Metal kit--it used a horse from the Glade Rider kit and that went kerput), Glade Lord on Great Stag(Metal as of its retirement), Glade Captain with Battle Standard(Metal), Glade Lord on Great Eagle(Metal), and Warhawk Riders(Metal).
We kept:
Eternal Guard(Updated with a plastic kit in 8th), Waystalker(Metal still, renamed to Waywatcher for AoS when the Grand Alliance Order book hit), Araloth(Renamed to Nomad Prince), Glade Guard(Plastic kit), Spellweaver(1 in Finecast and 1 in metal), Wayfinder(Generic Glade Lord with bow and hawk perched on his arm; metal), Waystrider(Generic Glade Lord with greatsword; Finecast), and Wild Riders(Updated with a plastic kit in 8th).
We gained/kept the following new units:
Sisters of the Watch(Dual kit with the Shadow Warriors), Sisters of the Thorn(Dual kit with the Wild Riders), Wildwood Rangers(Dual kit with the Eternal Guard)
L: 18 units/kits. 3 of which were old or used old components(Dragon and Great Eagles solo...although many people just used the LOTR Great Eagles instead), 2 kits shared a component and were relatively new(Glade Lord on Purebred Steed and Glade Riders), 3 went into Sylvaneth(Drycha, Treeman, Dryads), 1 never had a kit(Deepwood Scouts), 2 were consistently out of stock despite at least one of them being Finecast(Shadowdancer and Wardancers both were incredibly hard to come by even during 8th, always out of stock despite not being great. There were lots of reports of mold issues on them as well), 5 kits were metal(Waywatchers, Glade Captain with Standard, Lord on Eagle, Warhawk Riders, and Lord on Great Stag), and the remaining two kits(Orion and Treekin) just went poof...although Orion was recently(as of the General's Handbook II) renamed to "Avatar of the Hunt" in the Wood Elf section for the AoS app so we might be seeing some movement there.
K: 8 units/kits. 2 in metal, 1 in Finecast, 1 with an option in both, 4 plastics. Two of those plastics were brought up to date with 8th edition and given new/unique options(Wild Riders had been, when a metal/plastic hybrid kit, using the same horses as the Glade Riders just with a unique head).
G: 3 units. All in plastic. All three were also introduced in 8th edition, with one of them even being part of the High Elf army instead of Wood Elf.
TL;DR version: The idea of "Most things we Wood Elves lost were metal" isn't true. 5 of the kits that are just flat gone were Finecast. 5 were metal. 2 were metal/plastic hybrids(and one of them dated back to 5th edition, at least, and hadn't been on sale in almost 8-9 years). 1 was plastic, period, and was shared components with one of the metal/plastic hybrids(Glade Riders and the Glade Lord on Steed). 1 never had a kit. 3 things got shifted over to Sylvaneth. 1 I don't know for sure what material it was at the time of its demise(Wardancers).
Question... “For Adeptus Titanicus - I heard that you really managed to capture that feel of a titan machine spirit railing against it's Princeps? So if the Princeps is playing it safe and staying back shooting from afar there's a chance the Titan will require some sort of self control check to stop it charging in with it's power fist and going against the player's wishes? If so, you're my favourite person. If not, well you might still place in the top 100 I suppose.
Is there a project you have been involved in which you were disappointed it didn't get the traction you felt it deserved? And why do you think it didn't take off?”
James’ Answer
“Do I get a special prize or something for being your favourite person? Because yeah, that's pretty much what happens. Basically, when you push your titan's reactors to do something cool and unusual (it involves rolling a number of special Reactor Dice, which can lead to your engines overheating, but lets you supercharge weapons, turn on the spot more easily, go faster, etc.) there's a chance that the Machine Spirit will rebel against this mistreatment. You get a Command check, representing your Princeps' Willpower trying to keep the machine in check, but if you fail there's a table you roll on. The plan (which is hopefully still the case) was that in campaign play, titans would each have their own personalities and preferred methods, a bit like Tyranid instinctive behaviour. In short, though, yeah, that can totally happen. I'll accept a certificate in the post.
As for 2, I dunno, not really? Everything I've worked on has been pretty widely accepted, mainly because it's been pushed through major sales channels by one of the biggest tabletop gaming brands out there. I suppose the only game I've done that I've never seen anyone even mention was "Canyon Run", one of those little four-page White Dwarf games that uses a deck of playing cards. It was a proper throwaway, but I actually quite enjoyed playing it!
(Oh, and Betrayal at Calth, maybe? People who have played the game enjoyed it, going by the buzz online, but so many other people just threw away the cardboard bits. But that's what you get when you release what's basically a battleforce, but call it a board game...)”
That whole machine spirit mechanic sounds awesome and very fluffy. The more I hear about AT the more it convinces me that I should horde my cash and not buy Necromunda. I’m really excited about it and hope we get to see the models soon. His comments about Betrayal at Calth are understandable, you spend time on a tight ruleset, but no one ever plays it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 16:45:14
I did play Calth, the cards make the game too swingy, but without them, it’s a very bland game. As he put it, its another “proper throwaway” ruleset.
The designer comments actually have me pretty upset. It almost sounds like a game of “it really isnt’t our fault, that’s all those marketing people’s fault!” - Us vs. them sort of thing instead of accepting as a general failure of GW overall (I don’t get the impression the designers were pushing all that hard or raising community red flags about this going on).
And while I knew GW was pretty bad about playtesting/balancing (from reading/playing my own games) those comments just disappoint me. Fixing the situation now would do little to assuage my skepticism - it could all too easily revert back old habits.
And here was me thinking this was about the AMA...
Same. Thankfully it's really easy to skip the "I still tear up with I think about AoS" posts - they tend to be completely and utterly off-topic, ramble and be overlong, confuse facts with personal feelings, be full of errors, and contain buzzwords such as "utter failure!" and "destruction of Fantasy!"
"...and special thanks to Judgedoug!" - Alessio Cavatore "Now you've gone too far Doug! ... Too far... " - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke
And here was me thinking this was about the AMA...
Same. Thankfully it's really easy to skip the "I still tear up with I think about AoS" posts - they tend to be completely and utterly off-topic, ramble and be overlong, confuse facts with personal feelings, be full of errors, and contain buzzwords such as "utter failure!" and "destruction of Fantasy!"
Sadly it's a tad harder to ignore the frequent tendency of some folk to respond to any even remotely negative view of any aspect of AoS - even when entirely on topic as in this case - with self-satisfied whinging that other people are permitted to have and express opinions.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
-----
"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal
there's a big honking Sigmarine statue in Nottingham that says Age of Sigmar is here to stay no matter what.
And Sigmar be praised for that!
Apparently they have improved on the background in the meantime, and if it's only because they managed to accumulate enough to flesh out the setting beyond the "use your imagination" stage. You could read the jump to the free cities after the liberation of the Realmgate Wars as a return to the world we know from Fantasy, just, you know, grander and fantasticker and Sigmarier with cities the size of a continent, but at least they seem to have realized there needs to be more at stake than who wins a whacking contest between golden super buff dudes with hammers and red super buff dudes with axes.
That's been the build up the entire time. Those "whacking contests" were each done to shutdown the endless waves of chaos reinforcements so Order could come out and build again. The Age of Chaos was what most fictions would have as a tale of legend where the mythical armies of the past fought back the darkness to set up the main setting, we got to experience it though.
They did include more stories than that anyway, "Daemon of the deep" was one where a city rejected a impure baby and leaves him to die as he's an affront to Sigmar.
@Kanluwan, nice sum-up! I think people forget how wonky the old lines were when they talk about them being discontinued.
The more I hear about AT the more it convinces me that I should horde my cash and not buy Necromunda. I’m really excited about it and hope we get to see the models soon.
If the "I don't like AoS" conversation is for my first post, I actually enjoy AoS and actively play it.
And as much as people want to deny that AoS was a flop wen released, everything points to the contrary. When have you seen GW reboxing the boxes of the flagship faction of the game to offer a discount? (Stormcast, going from 5 man boxes to 10 man boxes). Thats not something you do with a product that sells well. But I will not comment more about this tangent, because this thread is not about AoS at his release, at least not about if it was an success or not.
I just pointed out the relation of AoS being so heavely handed by the managment guys, with his initial flop. Has even James Hewitt said, the release of 8th edition was an stellar sucess compared with AoS. Because they learned what to do and what not.
To be honest as Kanluwen pointed out 90% of the models they discontinued where gaky old ones. (And poor Tomb Kings They didn'd deserved that fate, that Spynx, was beautifull and new! Bretonnia had a much older model line and lets be honest, it wasn't something you can't do with most historicals out there). But there was one model that I miss. Throgg, the Troll King. That dude was beautifull. I bought one, lucky me, in a comic shop, 6 months ago. But on Ebay now he is triple the original price.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/18 20:23:10
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
there's a big honking Sigmarine statue in Nottingham that says Age of Sigmar is here to stay no matter what.
And Sigmar be praised for that!
Apparently they have improved on the background in the meantime, and if it's only because they managed to accumulate enough to flesh out the setting beyond the "use your imagination" stage. You could read the jump to the free cities after the liberation of the Realmgate Wars as a return to the world we know from Fantasy, just, you know, grander and fantasticker and Sigmarier with cities the size of a continent, but at least they seem to have realized there needs to be more at stake than who wins a whacking contest between golden super buff dudes with hammers and red super buff dudes with axes.
That's been the build up the entire time. Those "whacking contests" were each done to shutdown the endless waves of chaos reinforcements so Order could come out and build again. The Age of Chaos was what most fictions would have as a tale of legend where the mythical armies of the past fought back the darkness to set up the main setting, we got to experience it though.
They did include more stories than that anyway, "Daemon of the deep" was one where a city rejected a impure baby and leaves him to die as he's an affront to Sigmar.
@Kanluwan, nice sum-up! I think people forget how wonky the old lines were when they talk about them being discontinued.
The more I hear about AT the more it convinces me that I should horde my cash and not buy Necromunda. I’m really excited about it and hope we get to see the models soon.
40k noob here, didn't they already get models?
Sorry, I didn’t write that sentence very clearly. I’m talking about the models for Adeptus Titanicus.
As a GW manager during the release of AoS, it was very successful for me and for other GW/Warhammer stores who embraced it and promoted it. There was some fallout from older players, but the vast majority of the moaners I encountered weren't actually customers anyway, so wasn't a big issue. The real boost was from people coming back to the hobby and into a far more accessable game, and new hobbyists who previously would have been put off by the excessive bulk of rules, being able to play AoS within 30 minutes.
Words from HQ at the time said that the first 6 months of AoS beat the previous 3 years of Oldhammer in sales. And the main AoS core box was selling equally to Dark Vengeance in UK and Europe. Which was unheard of with Oldhammer.
That was the two high point of the start up release. The easy to get into game and the amazing core box. (Seriously, that starter box has so much stuff in it with even a solitaire scenario.)
And here was me thinking this was about the AMA...
I also feel this was aimed at me, but I'd like to point that my comment was entirely objective and neutral. I wasn't playing "Oldhammer" at the launch of AoS, and I'm not playing AoS now. My feelings towards AoS are completely neutral. To me AoS is just another thing that exists, like so many other things. I've tried to find something about it to interest me, but it's a real struggle.
As for my anecdotal evidence, I know the people working at the large, non-GW gaming store. Their AoS starter sets weren't selling at all during the first couple of months and they were displayed prominently in the shop next to the counter, all the while gathering dust. I really don't know how well it fared at the Oslo GW shop, as I don't go there unless I have to. I'd also argue that my post was a comment to the AMA, wherein James Hewitt describes the development and release of AoS, and while there were other parts I found more interesting and engaging, the development of AoS was the only bit I felt I could comment in a meaningful way.
Just because I didn't play Warhammer FB and had no interest in it, nor AoS, doesn't mean I didn't pay attention to how it all unfolded, because at the time I was worried it would have a negative effect on the future development of 40k. And in some ways it has changed to the worse, but only in terms of fluff, I quite like what the game itself has turned into.
He gives a pretty good insight to why it was such a "drama" at the time as older hands that had definite directions they wanted to take "project Stanley"(which properly started in 2012) but had actually left since then and he and the dev team had to make do with those instructions along with the higher ups that had other directions they wanted to take it with the dev team caught in the middle.
No wonder the release was like herding cats despite the large prep time!
Awesome to hear about the inner workings of new GW being so on the ball now with listening to new ideas and more hands on by the devs instead of the market guys.
Mordheim getting a mention was interesting. Before he left it was on the list of things to do but it was such a huge list with it towards the bottom he doubted it'd ever be done. Sad as that is for Mordheim the possibilities for what's coming up is amazing.
Also, had a good chuckle that his favorite thing to work on while simultaneously being his most disliked thing to work on was Silver Tower. Though I can understand how things like that can become a chore of love.
He gives a pretty good insight to why it was such a "drama" at the time as older hands that had definite directions they wanted to take "project Stanley"(which properly started in 2012)
Forge World's Tamurkhan book was supposed to be the first of four, and would tell of the ultimate victory of Chaos. Described by Rick Priestley as a "what if" alternate to the "proper" Warhammer setting, but I wonder how it tied in with the planning for the End Times and Age of Sigmar.
He gives a pretty good insight to why it was such a "drama" at the time as older hands that had definite directions they wanted to take "project Stanley"(which properly started in 2012)
Forge World's Tamurkhan book was supposed to be the first of four, and would tell of the ultimate victory of Chaos. Described by Rick Priestley as a "what if" alternate to the "proper" Warhammer setting, but I wonder how it tied in with the planning for the End Times and Age of Sigmar.
With Hindsight, I can see that the planned 4 part series was most likely canned due to Stanley. It probably also played into Priestly's suspected disillusionment. Wonder how far along that black skull pass book was before it too was canned.
Lorizael wrote: Anecdotal again, but...
Words from HQ at the time said that the first 6 months of AoS beat the previous 3 years of Oldhammer in sales. And the main AoS core box was selling equally to Dark Vengeance in UK and Europe. Which was unheard of with Oldhammer.
In fairness, dark vengeance had been on the shelves for what, 5+ years by that point? And at the time, fantasy was less than 10% of the total turnover, so people buying out of curiosity alone would have been enough to surpass those sales. From what I have heard from former colleagues, it's the general's handbook that has really gained the upward traction in AoS sales.
Looking forward to Titanicus, delays notwithstanding.
As a GW manager during the release of AoS, it was very successful for me and for other GW/Warhammer stores who embraced it and promoted it. There was some fallout from older players, but the vast majority of the moaners I encountered weren't actually customers anyway, so wasn't a big issue. The real boost was from people coming back to the hobby and into a far more accessable game, and new hobbyists who previously would have been put off by the excessive bulk of rules, being able to play AoS within 30 minutes.
Words from HQ at the time said that the first 6 months of AoS beat the previous 3 years of Oldhammer in sales. And the main AoS core box was selling equally to Dark Vengeance in UK and Europe. Which was unheard of with Oldhammer.
What i remember from aos was a ton of meh at the beginning with the lack of points. but the second they put points in with the GH the game started booming.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if AoS was actually doing well pre-generals handbook in the 'invisible' area of the hobby, that don't go out to play anywhere and basically juts game with people they know
but it's certainly pick up with more folk now there are points
Lorizael wrote: Anecdotal again, but...
Words from HQ at the time said that the first 6 months of AoS beat the previous 3 years of Oldhammer in sales. And the main AoS core box was selling equally to Dark Vengeance in UK and Europe. Which was unheard of with Oldhammer.
In fairness, dark vengeance had been on the shelves for what, 5+ years by that point? And at the time, fantasy was less than 10% of the total turnover, so people buying out of curiosity alone would have been enough to surpass those sales. From what I have heard from former colleagues, it's the general's handbook that has really gained the upward traction in AoS sales.
Looking forward to Titanicus, delays notwithstanding.
Yes, it had. But Dark Vengeance is a core box being sold to new players and used as a measure of recruitment. After the initial release and a surge in sales to established hobbyists, core boxes sell at a pretty consistant rate, irrelevant of age- because they are the go-to kit for new customers.
And for sure, Warhammer sales had deteriorated, and probably weren't the hardest to surpass. But that fact that AoS did comfortably do that, is still a good indicator that it was popular.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I wouldn't be at all surprised if AoS was actually doing well pre-generals handbook in the 'invisible' area of the hobby, that don't go out to play anywhere and basically juts game with people they know
but it's certainly pick up with more folk now there are points
General's handbook definitely boosted the game, and opened it up to more people. Though I'm convinced that a lot of those people should have just given it a try in the first place and they would have enjoyed the game!
But as you say, there are lots of hobbyists out there that just get on and collect, paint and play without making themselves known to the wider community.
Each GW, FLGS, gaming club, hobby-basement and internet forum, is a snapshot of the hobby, and never really shows everything that's going on.
The people with bad things to say often shout the loudest. The rest of us just get on with our hobby! I've played AoS open right from the start and have always enjoyed it. I've never felt the need to rave about the game on blogs or forums though. I'd rather spend my time building more Stormcast!
But as you say, there are lots of hobbyists out there that just get on and collect, paint and play without making themselves known to the wider community.
Heck even on Steam forums where you've got games bought by hundreds of thousands of people the number of people actually active and posting in the comments is often a tiny fraction of that population. And that's a population where everyone is already signed up to the steam system to get onto the game; ergo everyone is (be default) already online and registered.
For hobbies the number of active people online is tiny compared to the real world population; even in very geeky hobbies like warhammer. It's not abnormal that most people at a club will only glance at websites, most won't register and chances are there's probably only one or two in most clubs who do. Facebook has gobbled up many, but even there its sitll only a smaller number that take part in the online world .
Lorizael wrote: Anecdotal again, but...
Words from HQ at the time said that the first 6 months of AoS beat the previous 3 years of Oldhammer in sales. And the main AoS core box was selling equally to Dark Vengeance in UK and Europe. Which was unheard of with Oldhammer.
In fairness, dark vengeance had been on the shelves for what, 5+ years by that point? And at the time, fantasy was less than 10% of the total turnover, so people buying out of curiosity alone would have been enough to surpass those sales. From what I have heard from former colleagues, it's the general's handbook that has really gained the upward traction in AoS sales.
Looking forward to Titanicus, delays notwithstanding.
Well, dark vengeance came in about 3 years prior to the starter set and the year prior had an update with new stuff, so there's that. But there's no doubt the momentum picked steam with ghb and the newer, better and more reasonably priced, battletomes.
But as you say, there are lots of hobbyists out there that just get on and collect, paint and play without making themselves known to the wider community.
Heck even on Steam forums where you've got games bought by hundreds of thousands of people the number of people actually active and posting in the comments is often a tiny fraction of that population. And that's a population where everyone is already signed up to the steam system to get onto the game; ergo everyone is (be default) already online and registered.
For hobbies the number of active people online is tiny compared to the real world population; even in very geeky hobbies like warhammer. It's not abnormal that most people at a club will only glance at websites, most won't register and chances are there's probably only one or two in most clubs who do. Facebook has gobbled up many, but even there its sitll only a smaller number that take part in the online world .
I help run a club with 50 members or so; I only know of two other dakkanauts there, and none of my friends bother with forums (although they're a little more active on Facebook).
@lorizael I know that gw use the figures to measure recruitment (having had to hit those targets myself), but dv is a poor measure. Many existing players buy new boxes to get the rules and new models. Many of those sales didn't happen for 7th, as it was a repack of 6th. Those two army and rules boxes like death storm, and storm claw(?) would have also been bought by new hobbyists, but didn't count towards core game sales. Saying that AoS sales matched 40k isn't a real like for like comparison. I'm not trying to be argumentative, only pointing out that the statement doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
But as you say, there are lots of hobbyists out there that just get on and collect, paint and play without making themselves known to the wider community.
Heck even on Steam forums where you've got games bought by hundreds of thousands of people the number of people actually active and posting in the comments is often a tiny fraction of that population. And that's a population where everyone is already signed up to the steam system to get onto the game; ergo everyone is (be default) already online and registered.
For hobbies the number of active people online is tiny compared to the real world population; even in very geeky hobbies like warhammer. It's not abnormal that most people at a club will only glance at websites, most won't register and chances are there's probably only one or two in most clubs who do. Facebook has gobbled up many, but even there its sitll only a smaller number that take part in the online world .
I help run a club with 50 members or so; I only know of two other dakkanauts there, and none of my friends bother with forums (although they're a little more active on Facebook).
It's the same in my store many don't bother with forums only like two people I know actually visit them.
" - Rick Priestley "I've decided that I'd rather not have you as a member of TMP." - Editor, The Miniatures Page "I'd rather put my testicles through a mangle than spend any time gaming with you." - Richard, TooFatLardies "We need a Doug Craig in every store." - Warlord Games "Thank you for being here, Judge Doug!" - Adam Troke 
They didn'd deserved that fate, that Spynx, was beautifull and new! Bretonnia had a much older model line and lets be honest, it wasn't something you can't do with most historicals out there). But there was one model that I miss. Throgg, the Troll King. That dude was beautifull. I bought one, lucky me, in a comic shop, 6 months ago. But on Ebay now he is triple the original price.
