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2017/12/19 23:41:38
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
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Drager wrote: Galas wrote:Drager wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:Drager wrote: I can't find an explicit restriction to being only in the shooting phase in Cawl's rule
"You can re-roll any hit rolls in the Shooting phase "
Yes I have read the rule, it doesn't say only in the shooting phase.
What the... are you serious? "Oh man it says I can reroll in the shooting phase, but it doesn't specify I only need to rerroll them in the shooting phase". Are you saying Cawl hability applys in the overwatch sub-phase of the Charge phase and the Combat Phase? Are you serious?
No I'm not saying that. I'd suggest rereading, I'm happy to clarify if a specific part is unclear.
I’m not entirely sure where this conversation has gone. The exact wording for Lord of Mars is: you can reroll any hit rolls in the Shooting phase for friendly MARS units within 6”
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TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog |
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2017/12/20 00:27:45
Subject: "As If"
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Enginseer with a Wrench
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My question is why do you think you get to fight at all in his shooting phase. He is given permission to attack you. Where does it say both players treat this as fight phase so you go first.
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on the other hand Nobz they decided it was in the best interest of ork society that they "Go Green" as such they specifically modified their warbikes to not make giant smoke, dust, grit, clouds. Instead they are all about driving with clean air, one might say their bikes Gak out rainbows.
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2017/12/20 01:35:46
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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The order effects only the unit. no others
Even if your unit is in CC range of the guard squad, their the only ones that are effected by this order, so they only get to atk in melee
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2017/12/20 06:47:01
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Trigger-Happy Baal Predator Pilot
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Devils advocate ....If they are the only unit affected by it then they can do what they want and attack, but I do not have to take any damage to my guys from those melee attacks as my guys are not affected by that rule unless it says so in the rule?
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Now, we like big books. (And we cannot lie. You other readers can’t deny, a book flops open with an itty-bitty font, and a map that’s in your face, you get—sorry! Sorry!) |
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2017/12/20 07:09:50
Subject: "As If"
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Dakka Veteran
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This has kind of gone sideways. "as if" means all rules for that phase apply to the unit affected. So if they are within 6" of a character that gives them re-rolls to hit in the shooting phase, and they are acting as if they are in the shooting phase then they still get re-rolls.
The difference between "as if" and it being the actual phase is simply units not under the effect of the "as if" cannot trigger abilities, use powers, or stratagems for that phase.
So if I use some ability that says models in X unit can make a shooting attack "as if" it were the shooting phase during the movement phase. It's not the shooting phase so I can't pile a "In the shooting phase..." stratagem on top of that.
Also say my opponent has abilities that trigger when a model is killed in the shooting phase. They would not trigger because it's the movement phase.
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2017/12/20 07:27:25
Subject: "As If"
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Pretty decent explanation!
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 Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
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2017/12/20 10:34:10
Subject: "As If"
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Norn Queen
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Wagguy80 wrote: This has kind of gone sideways. "as if" means all rules for that phase apply to the unit affected. So if they are within 6" of a character that gives them re-rolls to hit in the shooting phase, and they are acting as if they are in the shooting phase then they still get re-rolls.
The difference between "as if" and it being the actual phase is simply units not under the effect of the "as if" cannot trigger abilities, use powers, or stratagems for that phase.
So if I use some ability that says models in X unit can make a shooting attack "as if" it were the shooting phase during the movement phase. It's not the shooting phase so I can't pile a "In the shooting phase..." stratagem on top of that.
Also say my opponent has abilities that trigger when a model is killed in the shooting phase. They would not trigger because it's the movement phase.
Except only the unit is acting "as if" it was, not Cawl.
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2017/12/20 10:56:25
Subject: "As If"
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Ork-Hunting Inquisitorial Xenokiller
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Yes, that's an excellent distinction and I completely agree with it.
If a model is given the ability to do something "as if it were the X phase" then I feel it gets to use all the relevant rules available to it for that phase.
However just because you create this instantaneous pseudo fight/shoot phase for one unit, doesn't mean you can then trigger other units, effects, abilities or stratagems which say "In the X phase you may..."
So... back to the OP... honestly the Tyranid warlord trait is (surprise surprise) badly worded. It doesn't say in YOUR fight phase, it says in THE fight phase.
But we are saying that the answer is that the player whose models are "acting as if it was the X phase" get to use their abilities, whereas the opponent does not...
I feel it could do with being clarified in the Designer's Commentary doc so have submitted it to the FAQ email address. FWIW
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TO of Death Before Dishonour - A Warhammer 40k Tournament with a focus on great battles between well painted, thematic armies on tables with full terrain.
Read the blog at:
https://deathbeforedishonour.co.uk/blog |
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2017/12/20 18:17:28
Subject: "As If"
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Dakka Veteran
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BaconCatBug wrote:Wagguy80 wrote: This has kind of gone sideways. "as if" means all rules for that phase apply to the unit affected. So if they are within 6" of a character that gives them re-rolls to hit in the shooting phase, and they are acting as if they are in the shooting phase then they still get re-rolls.
The difference between "as if" and it being the actual phase is simply units not under the effect of the "as if" cannot trigger abilities, use powers, or stratagems for that phase.
So if I use some ability that says models in X unit can make a shooting attack "as if" it were the shooting phase during the movement phase. It's not the shooting phase so I can't pile a "In the shooting phase..." stratagem on top of that.
Also say my opponent has abilities that trigger when a model is killed in the shooting phase. They would not trigger because it's the movement phase.
Except only the unit is acting "as if" it was, not Cawl.
You may be correct if their Aura ability specifically call out a phase. However most characters are just worded "Units within X inches can re-roll hit rolls of 1..." so it's important to be clear that being a "as if" phase doesn't exclude all aura effects from nearby units or characters.
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2017/12/20 18:33:44
Subject: "As If"
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Norn Queen
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Wagguy80 wrote: You may be correct if their Aura ability specifically call out a phase. However most characters are just worded "Units within X inches can re-roll hit rolls of 1..." so it's important to be clear that being a "as if" phase doesn't exclude all aura effects from nearby units or characters.
True, but Cawls specifically does, which is the whole crux of the issue here.
It all comes down to what the aura actually says and whether it's given permission to work outside of a single phase or if it says it works at all times.
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2017/12/20 20:39:59
Subject: "As If"
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Hardened Veteran Guardsman
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Wait, is the question seriously "Can I use the Kraken WT to fight ahead of the 'Guard player when he uses "Fix Bayonets!" in his shooting phase to attack my unit?"
No. Just no. Fething no.
Voice of Command
This unit may issue one order per turn to the soldiers under their command at the start of their Shooting phase. Orders may only be issued to INFANTRY units within 6" of this unit that have the same <REGIMENT> keyword as this unit. To issue an order, pick a target unit and choose which order you wish to issue from the table below. A unit may only be affected by one order per turn.
Fix Bayonets!
This order can only be issued to units that are within 1" of an enemy unit. The ordered unit immediately fights as if it were the Fight phase.
This does not allow both the Guard unit AND the enemy unit within 1" to act as if it were the fight phase, simply the 'Guard unit.
One Step Ahead
In each Fight phase, you can pick one friendly KRAKEN unit within 6" of your Warlord. That unit can fight first in the Fight phase, even if it didn't charge. If the enemy has units that have charged, or that have a similar ability, then alternate choosing units to fight with, starting with the player whose turn is taking place.
You are NOT in the Fight phase. You are in the Shooting phase. Fighting first in the Fight phase has absolutely zero bearing on the order "Fix Bayonets!" allowing the 'Guard unit to fight. It also does not allow you to fight outside of the Fight phase.
So, "Voice of Command" has you issue orders in your Shooting phase. The order, "Fix Bayonets!" makes a squad act as though it were the Fight phase. Finally, "One Step Ahead" strictly applies only to the Fight phase.
Honestly how is anyone arguing that these rules could in any way interact?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/12/20 20:42:53
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2017/12/20 22:28:47
Subject: "As If"
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Been Around the Block
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My two cents.
If something says 'as if it was the shooting phase' it means that it follows all the rules that exist if it were the actual shooting phase.
Ie, it is the shooting phase for that unit. Comes with all the good and bad. Yes this includes strategems.
Yes it means that Cawl's ability works on units that are granted an 'As if it were the shooting phase' re-roll. The ability is always active (even when it isn't the shooting phase).
gakky argument to the 'As if it were the Shooting phase' doesn't work with 'In the Shooting Phase'
Read the first line of step 1 of the shooting phase (Choose Unit to Shoot With, pg 179)
'In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons'
If you are saying that 'as if it was the shooting phase' does not make it 'The Shooting Phase'
Then your guys can't even shoot. As it is not Your Shooting Phase. So you cannot choose them.
Unless somewhere along the line the words 'skip step one of shooting'
Anywho, that is my deduction of it.
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2017/12/20 22:38:15
Subject: "As If"
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Dakka Veteran
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Larks wrote:Wait, is the question seriously
Honestly how is anyone arguing that these rules could in any way interact?
Because people like to read for Easter Eggs. They feel like GW hid a secret bonus for the best and most technical reader to find in the rules even if this is clearly not how GW writes rules.
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2017/12/20 23:00:16
Subject: "As If"
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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Korbee11 wrote:My two cents.
If something says 'as if it was the shooting phase' it means that it follows all the rules that exist if it were the actual shooting phase.
Ie, it is the shooting phase for that unit. Comes with all the good and bad. Yes this includes strategems.
Yes it means that Cawl's ability works on units that are granted an 'As if it were the shooting phase' re-roll. The ability is always active (even when it isn't the shooting phase).
gakky argument to the 'As if it were the Shooting phase' doesn't work with 'In the Shooting Phase'
Read the first line of step 1 of the shooting phase (Choose Unit to Shoot With, pg 179)
'In your Shooting phase you can shoot with models armed with ranged weapons'
If you are saying that 'as if it was the shooting phase' does not make it 'The Shooting Phase'
Then your guys can't even shoot. As it is not Your Shooting Phase. So you cannot choose them.
Unless somewhere along the line the words 'skip step one of shooting'
Anywho, that is my deduction of it.
100% agreed. Picking and choosing what rules you follow and putting the term " RAW"'in your post to try and legitimise it... eh, no, doesn't work.
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Stormonu wrote:For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
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2017/12/21 18:40:11
Subject: "As If"
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Been Around the Block
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I always thought as is comes with everything. As in an exact copy of that phase.
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2017/12/21 18:41:22
Subject: "As If"
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Norn Queen
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Ozeo wrote:I always thought as is comes with everything. As in an exact copy of that phase.
It is, for the unit that is acting "as if". Other units don't get to act "as if" while that unit does something. If Unit A is acting "as if" it were the Shooting Phase, and Unit B has a rule that only works in the Shooting Phase, Unit A does NOT benefit because Unit B is not acting as if it were the Shooting Phase.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 18:43:31
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2017/12/21 21:35:22
Subject: "As If"
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Sinewy Scourge
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BaconCatBug wrote:Ozeo wrote:I always thought as is comes with everything. As in an exact copy of that phase.
It is, for the unit that is acting "as if". Other units don't get to act "as if" while that unit does something. If Unit A is acting "as if" it were the Shooting Phase, and Unit B has a rule that only works in the Shooting Phase, Unit A does NOT benefit because Unit B is not acting as if it were the Shooting Phase.
I almost agree, but not quite. I agree that the nid ability to select a unit to fight first would do nothing, it's an active ability that can only be used in the fight phase, but for something like Cawl's rerolls the unit acting "as if" might be fulfilling the condition by my reading. If it were the shooting phase they would get rerolls. They behave as if it is the shooting phase, hence they get rerolls. Cawl wouldn't need to behave as if it were the shooting phase for this interpretation to work. I can't make a cast iron argument that this is how the rules work, however.
I can see the argument on the other side too, but it isn't any stronger, maybe a little weaker. As such I can't really see either as RAW, or, rather I suppose I can see both so. This leaves me in the position of simply acknowledging the ambiguity.
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2017/12/21 21:59:23
Subject: "As If"
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Been Around the Block
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Drager wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:Ozeo wrote:I always thought as is comes with everything. As in an exact copy of that phase.
It is, for the unit that is acting "as if". Other units don't get to act "as if" while that unit does something. If Unit A is acting "as if" it were the Shooting Phase, and Unit B has a rule that only works in the Shooting Phase, Unit A does NOT benefit because Unit B is not acting as if it were the Shooting Phase.
I almost agree, but not quite. I agree that the nid ability to select a unit to fight first would do nothing, it's an active ability that can only be used in the fight phase, but for something like Cawl's rerolls the unit acting "as if" might be fulfilling the condition by my reading. If it were the shooting phase they would get rerolls. They behave as if it is the shooting phase, hence they get rerolls. Cawl wouldn't need to behave as if it were the shooting phase for this interpretation to work. I can't make a cast iron argument that this is how the rules work, however.
I can see the argument on the other side too, but it isn't any stronger, maybe a little weaker. As such I can't really see either as RAW, or, rather I suppose I can see both so. This leaves me in the position of simply acknowledging the ambiguity.
The argument you are looking for is that Aura's don't turn off.
They are always on.
So units that meet the Parameters (Withing 6" and from MARS) are always effected by it at all times. If there were status tags, a unit from MARS within 6" to Cawl would have the 'Under the effects of Lord of Mars' at all times.
The benefit that Lord of Mars relays to the unit is 'In the shooting phase, re-roll any hits'
So when a unit acts 'as if' it were the Shooting Phase, it gets the Reroll.
Aura's don't care what phase it is. Aura's are always active.
You can even see it on Cawl's Datasheet. If it was supposed to work only during the ACTUAL Shooting phase, it would be worded as 'At the start of the Shooting phase' As it would have a clear trigger for it to turn on.
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2017/12/21 22:03:40
Subject: "As If"
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Norn Queen
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Korbee11 wrote:Aura's don't care what phase it is. Aura's are always active.
Literally and categorically untrue. Cawl's Aura only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't need some sort of "trigger" like you say, this isn't MTG.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/12/21 22:04:13
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2017/12/21 22:10:30
Subject: "As If"
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Sinewy Scourge
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BaconCatBug wrote:Korbee11 wrote:Aura's don't care what phase it is. Aura's are always active.
Literally and categorically untrue. Cawl's Aura only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't need some sort of "trigger" like you say, this isn't MTG.
Could either of you provide a justification for your assertions?
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2017/12/21 22:11:55
Subject: "As If"
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Been Around the Block
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Oh snap! An MTG reference.
I happily disagree with you.
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2017/12/21 22:12:31
Subject: "As If"
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Norn Queen
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Drager wrote: BaconCatBug wrote:Korbee11 wrote:Aura's don't care what phase it is. Aura's are always active.
Literally and categorically untrue. Cawl's Aura only works in the shooting phase. It doesn't need some sort of "trigger" like you say, this isn't MTG.
Could either of you provide a justification for your assertions?
I already have. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/746927.page#9750431
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2017/12/22 08:15:10
Subject: "As If"
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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The aura is always there while the effect of the aura only applies to the shooting phase. Since the affected unit acts "as if it was the shooting phase", the aura does something.
I'm pretty sure that no aura says "if it is the shooting phase, units within 6 inches are allowed to re-roll to-hit rolls" - that would make the aura work only in the shooting phase (or whenever the aura-giving unit acts as if it was the shooting phase)
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2017/12/22 08:59:38
Subject: "As If"
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Sinewy Scourge
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You made a claim that something outside the shooting phasing acting "As if" it were the shooting phase answers no to the question "Is this the shooting phase?". I don't see any good support for that claim. In basic English, it can go either way based on context as you and I have shown with examples previously (my example with the Lord, yours with the Doctor). As such I don't think an assertion that your reading is correct to be compelling evidence.
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2017/12/22 11:19:30
Subject: "As If"
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Brain-Dead Zombie of Nurgle
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Drager wrote:You made a claim that something outside the shooting phasing acting "As if" it were the shooting phase answers no to the question "Is this the shooting phase?". I don't see any good support for that claim. In basic English, it can go either way based on context as you and I have shown with examples previously (my example with the Lord, yours with the Doctor). As such I don't think an assertion that your reading is correct to be compelling evidence.
If it was ment so that the unit acting as if it was fight phase on shooting phase wouldnt get any normal fight phase benefits.
I think that it would be worded diferently some way like this "unit can make normal melee attack instead of shooting when this ability is activated on shooting phase".
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2017/12/22 12:11:17
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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how is this post still going? This is literally getting to the point of the post deviating WAAAAYYYY past the actual original post.
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2017/12/22 16:32:40
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Witch Hunter in the Shadows
Aachen
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mchammadad wrote:how is this post still going? This is literally getting to the point of the post deviating WAAAAYYYY past the actual original post.
Isn't this literally still about whether or not "as if it is the XY phase" allows stuff that grants buffs to some unit affected by something saying "in the XY phase, do this and that" - and isn't that literally the topic?
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2017/12/23 00:43:59
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Confessor Of Sins
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I think the discussion is totally on subject and totally deadlocked:
1. We pretty much all agree that only the unit subjected to "as if it was the <blank> phase" are allowed to act.
2. We pretty much have deadlocked on whether "as if it was the <blank> phase" means the unit that is acting is allowed to benefit from anything that has a "in the <blank> phase" rider on it.
I'm pretty sure this is a question that could only be answered by GW and is actually worth asking them.
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2017/12/23 12:12:19
Subject: Re:"As If"
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Courageous Space Marine Captain
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 alextroy wrote:I think the discussion is totally on subject and totally deadlocked:
1. We pretty much all agree that only the unit subjected to "as if it was the <blank> phase" are allowed to act.
2. We pretty much have deadlocked on whether "as if it was the <blank> phase" means the unit that is acting is allowed to benefit from anything that has a "in the <blank> phase" rider on it.
I'm pretty sure this is a question that could only be answered by GW and is actually worth asking them.
Yeah, pretty much this.
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