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What crappy wording. Let me try and fix it

"Make two To-Hit Rolls using your opponent's WS (applying modifiers). If both roll are successful then your opponent's unit has a -1 to hit."

That's...even worse actually.

"At the start of the fight phase, roll 2d6 and drop the highest. Any to-hit rolls made by your opponent that match the result rolled (after modifiers) automatically miss."

 CrownAxe wrote:
What crappy wording. Let me try and fix it

"Make two To-Hit Rolls using your opponent's WS (applying modifiers). If both roll are successful then your opponent's unit has a -1 to hit."

I have no idea what this says, but I'm pretty sure it's an entirely different rule from the one GW wrote.

 CrownAxe wrote:
What crappy wording. Let me try and fix it

"Make two To-Hit Rolls using your opponent's WS (applying modifiers). If both roll are successful then your opponent's unit has a -1 to hit."

That's...Not at all like the rule. That's just an entirely different rule with similar wording.

 vaklor4 wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
What crappy wording. Let me try and fix it

"Make two To-Hit Rolls using your opponent's WS (applying modifiers). If both roll are successful then your opponent's unit has a -1 to hit."

That's...Not at all like the rule. That's just an entirely different rule with similar wording.

It's actually basically the same thing.

Not even close and way more clunky then what GW wrote.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Not even close and way more clunky then what GW wrote.

In one case, you roll 2d6 drop the highest. If the number is equal to or greater than their WS, they'll hit 1/6 less times.

In the other case, you roll 2d6, and if both beat the WS, they'll hit 1/6 less times.

edit: never mind, misread

 Gargantuan wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
What crappy wording. Let me try and fix it

"Make two To-Hit Rolls using your opponent's WS (applying modifiers). If both roll are successful then your opponent's unit has a -1 to hit."

Ok, my 30 slugga boyz attack. that's up to 120 separate two dice rolls you have to make.

That's not clunky at all.

You didn't understand what he wrote. YOU, the player BEING ATTACKED, make just two hit rolls using your opponent's WS. If both hit, then all your opponent's attacks take a -1 penalty.

Edit: I see you noticed you misread. I'll delete this post, if you like, or keep it up to try to clarify for others.

Guys I know we can fix this, I think if we just add a few more dice rolls to it...

Just compare these abilities to other chapter tactics. For instance, -1 to hit outside 12".

Limits your army? Limited to not choosing a handful of need

Here's a clue. Tzeentch models mostly do not want to be in melee.

 Sim-Life wrote:
You're all assuming The Changlings rules will stay the same.

This. If you like speculating, by all means carry on. Otherwise, perhaps wait for the codex?

Worth ditching mixed god detachments for the loci at this point you guys think? Will likely leave you cp starved methinks.

Tzeentch det, khorne det, nurgle det. Not much different to ravenwing det, ultra det and ig det for optimal trait for units

Well, depends on what you go for honestly, not all units care for the loci all that much.

Flamers dont care for negligble CC durability boost, skull cannons are not all that into rerolling charge range, some seekers currently already can advance and charge.

If a decent chunk of your army is composed of units that just dont care, and you got yourself a mix of units that making multiple detachments would be costly in points are you need several more units for it-than a multigod detachment might be for the best.

Two gods is easy to split. but if you already have all four, very few HQs and many units that don't care all that much of the god-spesific trait, you'd rather just stick to multigod.

Why all the crying over modifiers to hit?
-1 and -2 were normal for cover in 2nd ed.
-1 and -2 were normal for speed in 2nd ed.
-1 for camo cloaks/shields
-1 for holo fields
+1 to hit with Targeter
+1 to hit Large targets
-6 if you were a Vindicare shooting at a Hidden target

Many a games -3 or -4 were my go to protections and sooner than later the enemy will still hit you.

They should put in +1 to hit stationary large targets. That would equalize a lot of parking lot armies that are complained about.

We need more modifiers. Shooting at that giant Lord of War or shooting at that small Bike going over 20" should NEVER in any game system be the same to hit rates!!! That should be saved for a childrens game.

Targeters used to give Marines a +1. Marines had no problems hitting.
When you needed to hit a 7+ the mechanic was that first you needed to roll a 6 and then roll again and hit 4+ for a hit
When you needed to hit an 8+ the mechaninc was again you roll a 6 followed by another 6.

The way it is now you have NO CHANCE to hit...but you always have a chance to wound. Back then it was the reverse.

They want to make faster games. But DiceHammer is not it.
The less hits their are in a game ....means less to wound rolls, means less saving throws, means less FNP rolls, etc.

They had it right back then....we just need a few more tweeks to make 8th better....and less dice and rules that support that should be encouraged.

I see nothing wrong with this Chaos rule....and I did not even read it. Anything to make shooting harder.

 admironheart wrote:

We need more modifiers. Shooting at that giant Lord of War or shooting at that small Bike going over 20" should NEVER in any game system be the same to hit rates!!! That should be saved for a childrens game.

To be fair - when you're shooting that Baneblade, you're not looking to hit some random piece of armour to have shot harmlessly plink to the side. You're targeting vents, sensors, vision slits, etc etc. If you wanted to introduce a nerf such as superheavies being easier to hit, you'd need first to thoroughly test it to see if it doesn't bring any unforeseen rules interactions and if the superheavy is still costed correctly...

I think in 8th when you hit a bunker or such it is an auto hit.

Remember that every model in this game you need to hit a 'vital' spot.

How many times did that lascannon hit the marine. Did he always vaporize? No sometimes on a wound roll of a 1, his arm was just evaporated but he still kept fighting.

The 'to wound' roll is if you hit a vital spot...that is why a lasgun needs a 6 on that nasty tank/monster. Hitting it should be pretty much a given.

If the tank is as large as a Leman Russ or bigger I think any stationary target should be hit auto much like bunkers. That would keep those boring parking lot armies on the move.
They already have made rules in 40k for this stuff. Its not rocket science and it doesn't slow the game down with the current abstract style of rules.

Tanks have always had the decision to keep moving to stay less vulnerable OR to remain stationary to get maximum fire.
Right now that tactical part of the game has been dumbed down so it don't matter. I miss decisions like those in a tactical game.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Perhaps a game wide mechanic that any stationary unit is -1 to its saving throw if in the open. Thus getting in cover or moving will net you your normal save or a bonus. (So even tank that don't get a bonus from cover do to obscurement rules would still not suffer a penalty. That is why they parked that tank in the brush....to help somewhat even if it is just twigs....that super hot blast weapon will vaporize the twigs...but perhaps it was aimed slightly worse because of it)

If your a guardsman, hoverbike or tank and just sit on that open lawn you should get hit easier or have a less chance to make a save.

If your moving you are either harder to hit or get a normal save.....something like that so the sensibilities of it all don't seem so lame.