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 Red Harvest wrote:
The News and/or Rumors? Yeah, I'm That Guy today.

Alph used to keep us in line. Haven't seen a mod on this thread for a while now. Any news usually involves pics or videos.
You can ignore all the big blocks of text.

 Monkeysloth wrote:

I'm just looking at things from a business perspective. How do you bring in new players and keep the existing ones spending money. Is it pretty cynical, yes, but it really feels like what CB does as it's pretty much what anyone in the hobby at their size ends up having to do. Look at all the new Close Combat stuff that have been added over the past year (like guard) that are 90% what MA is but only 3-4 figures have and none of them are really CC figures either. So rules that rarely come into play that are very similar to common rules but not the same thing that no one is ever going to remember that you have to stop and look up if for some reason they do trigger.

From a business perspective, the 2 player starters, Beyond packs and 300 point army packs are the best thing they can do for new players. Giving new players a way to circumvent army building and just saying "start here" helps immensely, and for the most part, CB has done a good job of making sure those packs provide a playable and varied representation of the full game.

I think for long time players, it feels like there's a pretty industry wide push towards sub factions as the solution. It makes sense; sub factions work similar to mercenaries, giving players a way to branch into a new segment of the catalog and experience a new playstyle by buying a few things rather than needing to start over. Most companies seem to be doing something similar, be it Sectorals, Keywords, Theme Forces, Minor Guilds, etc. Smaller purchases that unlock the ability to buy into other areas of the game gradually. It's just a less centralized version of the Merc concept and mostly sidesteps the problem of powerful mercs homogenizing the game.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Monkeysloth wrote:

I'm just looking at things from a business perspective. How do you bring in new players and keep the existing ones spending money. Is it pretty cynical, yes, but it really feels like what CB does as it's pretty much what anyone in the hobby at their size ends up having to do. Look at all the new Close Combat stuff that have been added over the past year (like guard) that are 90% what MA is but only 3-4 figures have and none of them are really CC figures either. So rules that rarely come into play that are very similar to common rules but not the same thing that no one is ever going to remember that you have to stop and look up if for some reason they do trigger.

From a business perspective, the 2 player starters, Beyond packs and 300 point army packs are the best thing they can do for new players. Giving new players a way to circumvent army building and just saying "start here" helps immensely, and for the most part, CB has done a good job of making sure those packs provide a playable and varied representation of the full game.

I think for long time players, it feels like there's a pretty industry wide push towards sub factions as the solution. It makes sense; sub factions work similar to mercenaries, giving players a way to branch into a new segment of the catalog and experience a new playstyle by buying a few things rather than needing to start over. Most companies seem to be doing something similar, be it Sectorals, Keywords, Theme Forces, Minor Guilds, etc. Smaller purchases that unlock the ability to buy into other areas of the game gradually. It's just a less centralized version of the Merc concept and mostly sidesteps the problem of powerful mercs homogenizing the game.

It really is another straw man argument.
Infinity is definitely more accessible than ever before. I remember buying the original JSA sectorial box and feeling pretty clueless about what to get after that.
It took a bunch of games making huge mistakes to figure the game out. My poor oniwaban will forever be known as the idiot who died at the knife of some lowly ghulam. You know, cyber ninja, they kill everything!

It’s so different now with a WEALTH of entry points for new players.
3 two player boxes to pick from, each with direct expansion packs.
And a bunch of 300 pt army in a box choices out there.

Long time players meanwhile, are being directed toward expanding into new sectorials or resculpts on existing minis. It’s not brilliant, but what else can they do to keep it fresh?

CB is doing fine. If people are feeling otherwise they should probably take a break for a while. The game always feels fresh when I look away for a few months and jump back in.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

 Red Harvest wrote:
The News and/or Rumors? Yeah, I'm That Guy today.

Alph used to keep us in line. Haven't seen a mod on this thread for a while now. Any news usually involves pics or videos.
You can ignore all the big blocks of text.

He did, but he *retired* this past March. I hope that he and his family be well.

Thing is, I can't ignore the big blocks of text. Far too tempting to read them.

Anyway, despite my complaints/criticisms, which are fairly consistent, and not particularly numerous, I still want to start the Vedics as my next force. All the new stuff just looks so good. And it's not painted black and red.

Not that there is anything wrong with red. Or black. It's just an over-used color scheme these days.

Has anyone had a chance to play through the ASA mission set, Runenberg Beseiged? I think that this sort of thing, mission packs, are a pretty good idea.

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*

Totally agree with your post; this bit in particular.

I've been following the lead-up to Guild Ball's latest edition, and one of the key goals its creators had was streamlining and de-bloating, which has increased my desire to get into that game. True, it's a very different sort of game, but it is nice to see creators keeping an eye on this sort of thing.

Complexity does not necessarily lead to increased tactical depth; there is a sweet spot here, and saying that I want Infinity to cut the bloat absolutely is not meant to imply that I want to play something more beer 'n' pretzels. I like that Infinity demands so much of your attention, I like that it has depth and that you really have to think your moves through; I just don't want to constantly be re-reminding myself of what extra gubbins each level of a skill adds (instead of the bonuses just increasing in such way that you could work it out without ever having to read past level 1) or which skills have which other skills nested within them.

It doesn't even feel like I'm getting anything in return for the extra hassle, just complexity for its own sake. If they toned it down even a little bit, I'd be pretty happy.

 Red Harvest wrote:
The News and/or Rumors? Yeah, I'm That Guy today.

Sorry, I was asleep

From the forums: Tikbalan in MO is likely o get DA CCW. Apparently it's possibility that it may - *may* - lose Mimetism also. And the Seraph rework may see it getting two profiles, one sans Aux Bot.

TIK without Mimitism loses a lot of its appeal. But also, MO seems liek a weird place for it anyway. I understand wanting to move it to another sectorial, but honestly Varuna seems like a MUCH better place for it.Or just let it be a vanilla option? Its pretty good in vanilla, isn't it?


I keep hoping we'll get some kind of indication of whether theres anything more to the MAF update beyond what we were shown. I wasn't particularly impressed or excited ove are those changes, but some love for Zerats, Oznats, Sogarats, Kurgats and Rasyats would get me to unpack my Morats again after a nearly year long break. Otherwise, I can't really see returning to the army any time soon.

Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.

I'm excited about a Seraph rework, though. I'm a big fan of it as is and think it's fantastic value, and the ability to just disconnect from the Auxbot doesn't make it the anchor some see it as. But I'll take anything that's a leg up for it. Having an aux-bot-less profile for a bit cheaper would be nice.

Now we just need some indication KotHS is getting some love....

 .Mikes. wrote:
Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.

Then they didn't have to give VIRD the Uhlan.

This isn't complicated.

I'm excited about a Seraph rework, though. I'm a big fan of it as is and think it's fantastic value, and the ability to just disconnect from the Auxbot doesn't make it the anchor some see it as. But I'll take anything that's a leg up for it. Having an aux-bot-less profile for a bit cheaper would be nice.

Yeah, no. Auxbots need a price drop or more variation. That'd go a long way towards fixing issues with the Seraph and design philosophy of PanO pre-VIRD.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:
Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.

Then they didn't have to give VIRD the Uhlan.

This isn't complicated.
.

It's not because they didn't.

 .Mikes. wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 .Mikes. wrote:
Re the Tik, I agree it would seem to be more suited thematically to varuna, but I could see sticking it there would give them athird heavily armed TAG, which all three having BS15 HMGs. For that reason alone I'm glad MO is getting it, but yeah, losing mimetism would be a blow.

Then they didn't have to give VIRD the Uhlan.

This isn't complicated.
.

It's not because they didn't.

Sorry, I misspoke. I meant the Squalo.

If they didn't want VIRD to have three fighty TAGs? They didn't have to give them the Squalo.

Ah, that makes more sense. And I agree. I was surprised to see the Squalo in there with the Cutter. But of redundancy going on.

 .Mikes. wrote:
Ah, that makes more sense. And I agree. I was surprised to see the Squalo in there with the Cutter. But of redundancy going on.

The illusion of choice.
Though really... cutter is a 20pt bump for TO. Something you may not always want or need.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pumpkin wrote:

 Ronin_eX wrote:
Do we really need near half a dozen levels of AD? What do we gain from 5 levels of MA where only ~2 are used? Do we need a host of close combat skills sitting outside the MA heading that do similar things? Why Marksman and Fatality? Why do hacking devices bloat up with so many useless programs when only a handful are used? Why does MA contain Stealth and Courage? Why does Berzerk contain Assault? Why does Veteran contain... *he just trails off*

Totally agree with your post; this bit in particular.

I've been following the lead-up to Guild Ball's latest edition, and one of the key goals its creators had was streamlining and de-bloating, which has increased my desire to get into that game. True, it's a very different sort of game, but it is nice to see creators keeping an eye on this sort of thing.

Complexity does not necessarily lead to increased tactical depth; there is a sweet spot here, and saying that I want Infinity to cut the bloat absolutely is not meant to imply that I want to play something more beer 'n' pretzels. I like that Infinity demands so much of your attention, I like that it has depth and that you really have to think your moves through; I just don't want to constantly be re-reminding myself of what extra gubbins each level of a skill adds (instead of the bonuses just increasing in such way that you could work it out without ever having to read past level 1) or which skills have which other skills nested within them.

It doesn't even feel like I'm getting anything in return for the extra hassle, just complexity for its own sake. If they toned it down even a little bit, I'd be pretty happy.

Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.

Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.

Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.

Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.

Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.

Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".

Makes sense considering Infinity grew into a tactical skirmish game from an RPG.
The recent escalation of game scale doesn't mean it should function like a wargame. Too many people making lists with 15-20 orders will make the game too complicated for the current rues.
Encouraging people to limit themselves to one combat group will hopefully fix this.

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.

Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.

Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".

Makes sense considering Infinity grew into a tactical skirmish game from an RPG.

Cool, then let's cut all the armies and just give you a single model to play with.

The recent escalation of game scale doesn't mean it should function like a wargame. Too many people making lists with 15-20 orders will make the game too complicated for the current rues.

This isn't "recent". It's been happening since the outset for Ariadna. This is also a ridiculous statement in thinking that it's the number of Orders that will "make the game too complicated".

Encouraging people to limit themselves to one combat group will hopefully fix this.

Sure, and while we're at it let's just cut Ariadna from the game. Their whole schtick is cheap, low tech troops fielded en masse. Even their "elite" USARF can still do a 20 Order list easypeasy.

See earlier remarks I made about "backdating" Sectorials and why them shifting design philosophies based upon metas is not good for the game.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Bladerunner2019 wrote:

Again, where you see bloat, I see depth. If these skills levels were distilled we would need hero specific rules buried somewhere in an army book for guys like Mushashi, Van Zant, Zoe, or Achilles. That or neuter them entirely to keep the game simpler.

Infinity has always had heroes to define its character. It really is better that everything is out there.

Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".

Makes sense considering Infinity grew into a tactical skirmish game from an RPG.

Cool, then let's cut all the armies and just give you a single model to play with.

The recent escalation of game scale doesn't mean it should function like a wargame. Too many people making lists with 15-20 orders will make the game too complicated for the current rues.

This isn't "recent". It's been happening since the outset for Ariadna. This is also a ridiculous statement in thinking that it's the number of Orders that will "make the game too complicated".

Encouraging people to limit themselves to one combat group will hopefully fix this.

Sure, and while we're at it let's just cut Ariadna from the game. Their whole schtick is cheap, low tech troops fielded en masse. Even their "elite" USARF can still do a 20 Order list easypeasy.

See earlier remarks I made about "backdating" Sectorials and why them shifting design philosophies based upon metas is not good for the game.

I could ask why you are here complaining when you could go play a proper wargame with 100 minis?
An avatar list is basically a 1 mini list.
I'm not talking Ariadna lists. I'm talking ITS lists designed to spread functionality as thin as possible. All the button pushing they put into scenarios made it impossible to take high value point sink. It's why TAGs were never used & why a list would have one low value HI choice at most in competition.
The meta is going to change regardless. It's in a better place now.

Again we're vastly off topic and in the weeds about meta vagueries. Every post you make, I'm left asking why you even play this game anymore?

And every post you make I'm left asking "Has he actually played?".

The different levels of the skills matter a fair bit. They tend to define the strengths of different factions. Everyone has everything, but a faction with cheaper models likely has a worse version of advanced deployment. The difference between say and Yuan Yuan and Hellcat are pretty important.

I think it could be organized a little better. What they really need is a better way to do branching trees. X level skills kind of work, but could be cleaner. Some skill branches are pretty well grouped, others could use some work (Vet Level 2 is messy at best). It's not awful though, just something that could be better.

The one that always bugged me (and is what Kanluwen is objecting to, if I'm not mistaken) was Martial Arts L2; it gives you the benefit of the Valor: Courage skill. Why not just give the model Valor: Courage too and make it less confusing? It's the same s when 7th edition 40k had "<Obscure unit special rule>: This unit has Feel No Pain", which everyone seemed to complain about.

There's a few where the levels don't seem to advance from one to the other; I can see how you'd want to group them into a similar category, but they're not necessarily adding to a base skill level as you increase.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The one that always bugged me (and is what Kanluwen is objecting to, if I'm not mistaken) was Martial Arts L2; it gives you the benefit of the Valor: Courage skill. Why not just give the model Valor: Courage too and make it less confusing? It's the same s when 7th edition 40k had "<Obscure unit special rule>: This unit has Feel No Pain", which everyone seemed to complain about.

There's a few where the levels don't seem to advance from one to the other; I can see how you'd want to group them into a similar category, but they're not necessarily adding to a base skill level as you increase.

This is the nested skill thing that most people here are agreeing about as all MA levels gives you stealth and courage. Morat gives you Veteran and Religious. There's no reason for Morat to exist as a skill as all it does is give you two others skill. MA shouldn't have these other skills hidden in it and all profiles that CB wants to have those skills should just be listed.

Vet Level 2 is my current favorite of these, giving 2 other skills and just Vet Level 1.

I guess the answer to the MAF question is "Yes, there is more. Sogratas can no longer form fireteams."

So thats nice.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Sure it's better there's options, but at the same time we don't need to have all these "This skill is this one plus this one, renamed!".

How many of those actual skills are there? Veteran lvl 2, Morat... I'm sure theres a few more. But its not that many, is it. 10 total maybe? Thats hardly a problem. Thats hardlya game breaking issue. At worst its a matter of a quick lookup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Monkeysloth wrote:


This is the nested skill thing that most people here are agreeing about as all MA levels gives you stealth and courage. Morat gives you Veteran and Religious. There's no reason for Morat to exist as a skill as all it does is give you two others skill. MA shouldn't have these other skills hidden in it and all profiles that CB wants to have those skills should just be listed.

Sure. But thats not actually a game breaking problem, is it? How often does Martial Art's inclusion of Stealth and Courage actually cause a problem? Every now and then? I don't disagree that incuding these skills on the profile might be better, but its hardly something that needs to be complained bout either, is it? I mean, if you've played the game more than a few times you've probably used a troop with MA. And while you may forget it has Stealth the first few times you use it, eventually you'll remember. Not a huge deal Same f you're facing a MA model. You'll eventually remember they ALL have access to Stealth.
'
It would be nice if, going forward, they'd just go ahead and list those skills. But if they don't I don't think its really a big deal.

Ya there's not a lot of them but it's indicative of a larger part of the rules that need to be rewritten if only to make things clearer and not change said rules.

Here's a list of things, more or less, from the mayacast episode just around how the rules are written (but no the rules themselves)

Nested rules
rules in examples that are not in the actual rule text
rules in call out boxes that aren't actually in the rule text
Higher level skills that are less functional then the lower level skills
Rules that only exist for fluff reasons that actually don't do anything gameplay wise (Tohaa have some)
Rules that do the exact same thing as another rule but name different for fluff reason (symbiote armor and the others ones that flip profiles. Just have a different rule around Tohaa's fire weakness added in the unit box)
Inconsistency in what a label in the rule does (recent faq where even though a skill or equipment had a label meaning it got other rules it actually doesn't but they're also not removing that label)
Rules where equipment does something despite not having the required label (weapons that do breaker damage without being labeled as breaker)
Rules where the modifier to skills are different even though the equipment is the same "name" (medkit vs automed kit)
movement vs Movement
Dodge doing different things depending on who's active turn it is

There's a lot more too as those are just off the top of my head from when I listened to it two days ago. And I'm not even including the hacking and weapons and things like fury (which they make the argument doesn't need to exists as it's just impetuous 1 pretending to be something else) as that's a different argument to "are the rules hard to navigate or understand".

The rules need a rewrite not to remove things people can do but actually make it so people can understand fully what their units can do.

Not a big deal if it's a one time thing.

But they do that everywhere.

 Monkeysloth wrote:
Ya there's not a lot of them but it's indicative of a larger part of the rules that need to be rewritten if only to make things clearer and not change said rules.

Here's a list of things, more or less, from the mayacast episode just around how the rules are written (but no the rules themselves)

Nested rules
rules in examples that are not in the actual rule text
rules in call out boxes that aren't actually in the rule text
Higher level skills that are less functional then the lower level skills
Rules that only exist for fluff reasons that actually don't do anything gameplay wise (Tohaa have some)
Rules that do the exact same thing as another rule but name different for fluff reason (symbiote armor and the others ones that flip profiles. Just have a different rule around Tohaa's fire weakness added in the unit box)
Inconsistency in what a label in the rule does (recent faq where even though a skill or equipment had a label meaning it got other rules it actually doesn't but they're also not removing that label)
Rules where equipment does something despite not having the required label (weapons that do breaker damage without being labeled as breaker)
Rules where the modifier to skills are different even though the equipment is the same "name" (medkit vs automed kit)
movement vs Movement
Dodge doing different things depending on who's active turn it is

There's a lot more too as those are just off the top of my head from when I listened to it two days ago. And I'm not even including the hacking and weapons and things like fury (which they make the argument doesn't need to exists as it's just impetuous 1 pretending to be something else) as that's a different argument to "are the rules hard to navigate or understand".

The rules need a rewrite not to remove things people can do but actually make it so people can understand fully what their units can do.

TBH I’m having a harder time understanding this list than the rules on the wiki.
Infinity is a gamers game. It’s not a good entry point for new tabletop miniatures gamers.

You’re talking a complete tear down and rebuild.
That would be especially difficult because the naming conventions would be rearranged.
IE: It took me a while to realize marker became pitcher in N3.
You are talking about retooling, consolidating, and renaming of weapons, skills, & equipment just because it’s not perfect.
The core mechanic of active orders and AROs is solid. Otherwise, The rule bloat is just not that bad yet.

Most of that list is things you'll find in any game out there. Infinity has some unique quirks, but its remarkably approachable. The starters do a good job of focusing on the core firefight mechanics and its a pretty great game if you only go that deep. Hacking and melee are additional layers worth exploring, but fairly optional all things considered and pretty easy to wrap your head around once you've played a couple games with the guns.

Nested skills are fine IMO, as long as they aren't over used. GW over used them. CB does not, yet.

They are useful in the interest of saving space on a unit profile. It takes less space to print Veteran Lvl2 than to print V: No Wound Incapacitation and Sixth Sense lvl2. Plus it has the effects of Veteran Lvl1 so it does have something beyond just giving two other special rules.

Halloween scenarios are up: https://assets.infinitythegame.net/downloads/infinity_its_halloween18_missions/en/v1.0/infinity_its_halloween18_missions.pdf They look entertaining. Xenozombies, anyone?

This Episode of Maya cast covers alot of overhaul ideas... I agree with most of it as well
Over a 160 different individual weapon profile entries I do think it is time for a little bit of Cleanup in this game as much as I enjoy it and I'm not complaining...
The game does need a basic overhaul
https://mayacast.com/2018/08/17/mayacast-episode-194-reduce-reuse-recycle/