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Eumerin wrote:

Ulthuan in Total War: Warhammer 2 already has a gate mechanism in place. As is depicted in the fluff, Ulthuan has a mountain range that runs around the entire continent. And you can't get from the outer shores to the inner shores without going through one of the gates, which are located at the only passes through the mountain range. This is depicted in the game.

Well that explains that. I haven't done well enough in a game of Total Warhammer 2 to actually set foot in Ulthuan. I usually suffer some catastrophic, unrecoverable defeat before I leave Lustria or Nagaroth and have to start over.

I like Total Warhammer, I'm just terrible at it.

Mind you, the gates in Warhammer 2 are awful. Currently, heroes/agents just ignore them and when you attack them, for some reason you can't build siege equipment. It treats them as a open field battle despite the walls.

Not that you need siege equipment in warhammer city battles...

And here's Yuan Shu -

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-three-kingdoms-warlord-legends-yuan-shu?fbclid=IwAR2VxPw5VrOCCp2OSIWPeW0-hyJjPlqdOx8rI7PYwZhjmyYCIAIV8o_q6-4

Note that because Yuan Shu shared his family name with Yuan Shao, this write-up frequently refers to him simply by his given name, Shu. Please keep in mind that despite this name, he is in no way associated with the later Kingdom of Shu which was established by Liu Bei.

Yuan Shu was the half-brother of Yuan Shao, and the two absolutely did not get along. Shu believed that Shao had usurped the former's birth-right (in fact, there were apparently even claims that Shao was adopted into the family, and not a blood relative of their shared father), and when Emperor Xian was believed dead following the burning of Luoyang, the two brothers quickly turned on each other. Early in Shu's life, he was apparently a competent leader. But as time passed (and by the time the game begins), he had become known for an overly extravagant life-style. He eventually obtained the Imperial Seal from the Sun family. In 197, he used this to declare himself emperor. Unfortunately, this merely made him a target for all of the other warlords (the fact that the actual sitting emperor - Emperor Xian - had turned up alive just a year or two earlier only made things worse). The Sun family - who had provided the bulk of Yuan Shu's military strength - immediately turned on him, and nearly every other warlord in the region used the declaration as an excuse to attack Shu. Shu was thoroughly crushed. With his defeat apparent, he attempted to flee to take refuge with his half-brother, Shao. But the army sent by Shao to escort him to safety was forced to turn back before it could reach him, and Shu died of illness not long after.

Yuan Shu's initial dilemma will focus on the battle between Sun Jian and Liu Biao. Yuan Shu can ignore the squabble between the two, and focus on other matters. Or he can get involved to help Sun Jian, who is in dire straits. However, doing so will almost certainly anger Yuan Shao, who is the one who asked Liu Biao to attack Sun Jian in the first place. Not only is Shao Shu's half-brother, but historically he was also the most powerful warlord in the region, and angering him will no doubt cause problems. Regardless of which decision Shu makes, his starting location is one of the most precarious in the game as he's surrounded by powerful hostile warlords. Liu Biao is one of his neighbors. His territory is within range of Dong Zhuo's armies. And the aggressive and resourceful Cao Cao is to his east. Because of this, the article describes Yuan Shu as having one of the most difficult starts in the game.

Yuan Shu has a unique mechanic called "Legitimacy". Presumably based on a combination of his noble blood, and his later claim to the Imperial Throne, Shu relies on the Legitimacy mechanic to propel his rise through the ranks. He can demand that another warlord accept his claims. If the other warlord does so, then Shu's legitimacy will be increased, which will help to increase his rank. However, recruitable characters will need to acknowledge his claims. So without spending legitimacy, it appears that it will be difficult for Shu to get new characters to join his faction. In addition to the new mechanic, Yuan Shu will also receive bonuses to income from commerce and industry. He also has access to a unique mechanic that will allow him to make an initial monetary investment in a character, and then receive increased income from that character over the course of the game.


That's ten warlords down, with one remaining. I suspect that the last playable warlord will be Dong Zhuo. However, this will leave a rather sizeable gap in that there won't be any playable warlords in and around Chengdu, in the southwest. And Dong Zhuo's fate during the era (which happened soon after the game starts; Luoyang was burned in 190, and Dong Zhuo died in 192) doesn't really endear itself to a Total War game. A dilemma along the lines of, "One of your generals is sleeping with one of your chambermaids. Should you ignore it, or execute him?" just doesn't have the same ring to it that the other dilemmas do.

It's possible the 10th will be Lu Bu, who will have to choose between betraying Dong Zhuo or staying loyal to him. It's also possible they'll save Lu Bu for a DLC.

And the last starting leader is...

*Drumroll*

Gongsun Zan

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-war-three-kingdoms-warlord-legends-gongsun-zan?fbclid=IwAR3tEvet016eYUqLze9BvSvhS_HU0OhBQX72tcQ4p521pZNr308kIOkPcJA

Note that Gongsun Zan should *not* be mistaken for Gongsun Du. Gongsun Du was situated at the border with Korea, and he and his heirs spent most of their time fighting Koreans until they were finally removed by the Sima family. Gongsun Zan had nothing to do with them (though it's possible that he was a distant relative), and was historically defeated relatively early on in the period.

Gongsun Zan is a military-focused warlord. He doesn't get civilian administrators. Instead, his generals oversee provinces. His "reinforcement radius" is 50% larger than that of other warlords (i.e. armies can reinforce each other while further away), and he has access to some of the best shock cavalry in the game. His faction also gets access to superior horse archers. He has a good relationship with Liu Bei at the start of the game (they're childhood friends), and he starts with the services of Zhao Yun, one of the greatest warriors of the era.

Gongsun Zan starts near the northeast corner of the map. The aforementioned Gongsun Du is to his east. But aside from the possibility of stabilizing Zan's flanks, advancement along this route is a dead end. Zan's western border is occupied by his rival, Lui Yu. One fork of Zan's initial dilemma is to permanently resolve his rivalry with Lui Yu by defeating him and claiming Lui Yu's territory. Alternately, Zan's old ally Yuan Shao has recently suggested that Zan should launch an attack on Han Fu. This is what Zan did historically, and the result of that is briefly discussed in Yuan Shao's write-up.


And that's it for the list of starting leaders. To review, they are -

Sun Jian
Cao Cao
Liu Bei
Ma Teng
Liu Biao
Zhang Yan
Yuan Shao
Zheng Jiang
Kong Rong
Yuan Shu
Gongsun Zan

Judging by facebook reacts to this announcement, looks like alot of folks were waiting on this dude and what he brings to the table.

I know feth all about this era and its inspiration but even I am liking this dude. I always love the more militant type of factions/leaders.

Happy to see Gongsun Zan. Surprised not to see Lu Bu, but then again he is perfect DLC fodder.

I'm not surprised they didn't include Lu Bu at launch. He is most famous for betraying pretty much everybody he served and then losing to Cao Cao. The RotTK games from Koei have traditionally presented him as an attack dog for Dong Zhuo and not much of a leader in his own right. In fact, of the various starting maps in those games, only one map ever features Lu Bu ruling a province. Gongsun Zan is usually featured on at least 2 maps.

squidhills wrote:
I'm not surprised they didn't include Lu Bu at launch. He is most famous for betraying pretty much everybody he served and then losing to Cao Cao. The RotTK games from Koei have traditionally presented him as an attack dog for Dong Zhuo and not much of a leader in his own right. In fact, of the various starting maps in those games, only one map ever features Lu Bu ruling a province. Gongsun Zan is usually featured on at least 2 maps.

Certainly true. Even as a warrior lots of Historians consider Lu Bu's reputation to be exaggerated by folk myth and legend. He won few battles during his career. Sun Jian famously kicked his ass while having half as many men because Lu Bu was completely ineffective as a commander and couldn't get his officers to respect him.

I am a Yuan Shu man myself.....





Note: I only know what Koei has taught me.....

 nels1031 wrote:
Judging by facebook reacts to this announcement, looks like alot of folks were waiting on this dude and what he brings to the table.

I know feth all about this era and its inspiration but even I am liking this dude. I always love the more militant type of factions/leaders.

Historically, he didn't really bring much. Liu Bei linked up with him, and hit it off with Zhao Yun, who bailed on Gonsun Zan to follow Liu Bei when an opportunity presented itself. And then Zan got beaten and killed by Yuan Shao.

But that's more than Zheng Jiang brings. The only - and I mean *ONLY* - thing that we know about her is that she was defeated and killed by Cao Cao's forces in 210.

Lu Bu is a bit problematic as a warlord for a very simple reason. When the game starts, Dong Zhuo is still alive. And Dong Zhuo was Lu Bu's leader right up until Lu Bu betrayed him (which historically would be within two years of the game start). There are ways to work around that, of course. But those ways kind of up end the existing mechanics very dramatically. He might appear in a DLC, though, with some special mechanics.

Gongsun Zan had a rather successful, if undefined, military career (one of the few men in the early stages of the period who did). He fought nonstop along the northern border for years, which is a role that generally gets a lot of credit in Chinese culture. Basically every defender of the North who didn't lose became a cultural badass as far as anyone is concerned.

He was also supposedly a genius. His defeat by Yuan Shao is generally attributed to his lackluster politics and administrative skill, rather than his military talent.

I also don't think Yaun Shao killed him. Pretty sure he committed suicide after his final defeat.

 LordofHats wrote:
Gongsun Zan had a rather successful, if undefined, military career (one of the few men in the early stages of the period who did). He fought nonstop along the northern border for years, which is a role that generally gets a lot of credit in Chinese culture. Basically every defender of the North who didn't lose became a cultural badass as far as anyone is concerned.

He was also supposedly a genius. His defeat by Yuan Shao is generally attributed to his lackluster politics and administrative skill, rather than his military talent.

I also don't think Yaun Shao killed him. Pretty sure he committed suicide after his final defeat.

Regardless, he died quite early on in the period. The stuff that he did fighting along the northern border was primarily before the start of the game. So while he may have been important in the time period leading up to the collapse of the Han Dynasty, he didn't accomplish much once the infighting started.

Yea I'm surprised Zhang Yan, Zheng Jiang and Kong Rong made it over Zhang Lu or Liu Zhang.

I suppose they must have been pet characters of someone in the office.

Liu Zhang would have been really cool, he could have had really disloyal generals and would not be allowed to declare war on other factions due to being an umabitious man, but could get a bonus to public oder and recruiting talented generals due to being a placid ruler.

As a long standing veteran i am going to skip this one, they overdid themselves with the yellow turban shenanigans, to bad, seems they'd finally gotten around to fix diplomancy. (granted TW ai diplomacy should be renamed to dickplomacy, since that is a more acurate form of describing it.)

Shenanigans?

Voss wrote:
Shenanigans?

Preorder bonus of an essential faction 6 months before release?

I don't like it when they take hostages in order to force you to preorder, especially since they have a bad record of delivering finished products ( empire and rome II)

Meh. The 'preorder' bonus lasts for the first week of launch (it's not like it was limited to 6 months ago), and they aren't shy with gameplay codes to youtubers, so they're will be plenty of content out to judge the game by before it launches.

Given how the history runs (especially considering the exact point when they framed this game), I wouldn't call the yellow turbans 'essential' anyway. It seems more overly cute than anything else.


Really, given their penchant for sales and dlc content, it doesn't seem much like 'hostage taking.' Just some minor bonus content if you bother to buy on launch for full price

Voss wrote:
Meh. The 'preorder' bonus lasts for the first week of launch (it's not like it was limited to 6 months ago), and they aren't shy with gameplay codes to youtubers, so they're will be plenty of content out to judge the game by before it launches.

Given how the history runs (especially considering the exact point when they framed this game), I wouldn't call the yellow turbans 'essential' anyway. It seems more overly cute than anything else.


Really, given their penchant for sales and dlc content, it doesn't seem much like 'hostage taking.' Just some minor bonus content if you bother to buy on launch for full price

Yeah. The game starts after the burning of Luoyang, and the relocation of the Emperor to Dong Zhuo's capitol. The major portions of the Yellow Turban Rebellions were already well over at this point. There were some localized uprisings later on (Cao Cao had to deal with one of them; iirc, after crushing the uprising, he "punished" the rebels by giving them farmland that had gone fallow), and that's presumably who the warlords in the Yellow Turban DLC represent. The original Yellow Turban uprisings were widespread enough to be considered a national emergency. The later ones that these guys represent were minor events in the history books.

These guys are nowhere near as important as the Warriors of Chaos from the first Warhammer game.

Eumerin wrote:

Voss wrote:
Meh. The 'preorder' bonus lasts for the first week of launch (it's not like it was limited to 6 months ago), and they aren't shy with gameplay codes to youtubers, so they're will be plenty of content out to judge the game by before it launches.

Given how the history runs (especially considering the exact point when they framed this game), I wouldn't call the yellow turbans 'essential' anyway. It seems more overly cute than anything else.


Really, given their penchant for sales and dlc content, it doesn't seem much like 'hostage taking.' Just some minor bonus content if you bother to buy on launch for full price

Yeah. The game starts after the burning of Luoyang, and the relocation of the Emperor to Dong Zhuo's capitol. The major portions of the Yellow Turban Rebellions were already well over at this point. There were some localized uprisings later on (Cao Cao had to deal with one of them; iirc, after crushing the uprising, he "punished" the rebels by giving them farmland that had gone fallow), and that's presumably who the warlords in the Yellow Turban DLC represent. The original Yellow Turban uprisings were widespread enough to be considered a national emergency. The later ones that these guys represent were minor events in the history books.

These guys are nowhere near as important as the Warriors of Chaos from the first Warhammer game.

And thanks to your sheepish attitudes we will get less and less complete games.

Not Online!!! wrote:

And thanks to your sheepish attitudes we will get less and less complete games.

That's a load of crap.

Early sales are important in the industry. Early sales push more sales, which push profits, which push repeat games.

Creative Assembly, in this instance, has chosen to push early sales by adding in DLC content, much as they did with both of the Warhammer Total War games. But there's a critical difference this time around. The pre-order DLC faction in the first Warhammer game was an important part of the setting, and played a major role in the campaign arc. The middle of that game essentially revolves around what that faction does. The Three Kingdoms pre-order DLC faction, on the other hand, adds something that ONLY the people who care about the setting will be interested in. If you don't have the DLC, then it won't subtract from your enjoyment of the game. The Yellow Turban warlords featured in the DLC are the last lingering remnants of a group that was destroyed long before the game started.

If the game started during the Yellow Turban uprisings, then your complaint would have merit. But it doesn't. It starts long after the uprising had been crushed. As such, the Yellow Turban DLC is a neat little bonus for the era fanatics and completionists. If you aren't one of those, and you don't have the DLC, you'll likely never even care about the warlords that aren't playable. If you are one of those, then you'll likely pre-order the game anyway.

What you're complaining about is the equivalent of whining because a car company announces that everyone who purchases a new model car within one week of the model roll-out gets free chrome rims instead of steel.

Eumerin wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

And thanks to your sheepish attitudes we will get less and less complete games.

That's a load of crap.

Early sales are important in the industry. Early sales push more sales, which push profits, which push repeat games.

Creative Assembly, in this instance, has chosen to push early sales by adding in DLC content, much as they did with both of the Warhammer Total War games. But there's a critical difference this time around. The pre-order DLC faction in the first Warhammer game was an important part of the setting, and played a major role in the campaign arc. The middle of that game essentially revolves around what that faction does. The Three Kingdoms pre-order DLC faction, on the other hand, adds something that ONLY the people who care about the setting will be interested in. If you don't have the DLC, then it won't subtract from your enjoyment of the game. The Yellow Turban warlords featured in the DLC are the last lingering remnants of a group that was destroyed long before the game started.

If the game started during the Yellow Turban uprisings, then your complaint would have merit. But it doesn't. It starts long after the uprising had been crushed. As such, the Yellow Turban DLC is a neat little bonus for the era fanatics and completionists. If you aren't one of those, and you don't have the DLC, you'll likely never even care about the warlords that aren't playable. If you are one of those, then you'll likely pre-order the game anyway.

What you're complaining about is the equivalent of whining because a car company announces that everyone who purchases a new model car within one week of the model roll-out gets free chrome rims instead of steel.

Aaaaaaaannnnnd that is a load of horseshite.

Early sales are important, however a company can achieve that without pre order bonuses, especially not when you announce them 6 months before the freaking game realeases, because at that point it is on disc dlc. (or hostage /paywalled content, and we all know how well polished the total war series has become after medieval II, hint, barely and only after a feth up trustworthy, F.e.empire total war or rome II or britania, heck Attila had one of the mainfactions nigh unplayable, which points to quite some problems of quality controll. )

Secondly the relevance of the faction still is completly irrelevant to the discussion. It merely is a gak practic and the only reason why ca and Sega didn't took a more important one is because they got gak on after rome II and the greek dlc were in Attila afterwards the irrelevant vikings were pre order and then tried it again with total war warhammer.
Morale of the story if you didn't like that then you can't condone this either.

Therefore your point about the relevancy of the faction is moot and my point still stands.
Or have you forgotten what they pulled the last time?

What they "pulled" last time was the Norse faction DLC with the Warhammer 2 release.

You seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that we would have access to these warlords in the main game if they hadn't been slated for pre-release DLC. That is wrong. Again, these aren't the Warriors of Chaos. The closest comparison is to the aforementioned Norse faction in the Warhammer games - i.e. a group that exists within the setting, but who players would not have complained about if they'd never appeared within the game.

Without DLC, you never see the Yellow Turban warlords. There is no realistic path in which someone decides to include these three warlords as unique and playable in a game set during this particular era.

My chrome rims comparison still stands.

Eumerin wrote:
What they "pulled" last time was the Norse faction DLC with the Warhammer 2 release.

You seem to be operating under the mistaken belief that we would have access to these warlords in the main game if they hadn't been slated for pre-release DLC. That is wrong. Again, these aren't the Warriors of Chaos. The closest comparison is to the aforementioned Norse faction in the Warhammer games - i.e. a group that exists within the setting, but who players would not have complained about if they'd never appeared within the game.

Without DLC, you never see the Yellow Turban warlords. There is no realistic path in which someone decides to include these three warlords as unique and playable in a game set during this particular era.

My chrome rims comparison still stands.

What they pulled last time willfully misintepreted, i gave you their Modus operandi but pls be more apologistic torwards their practices

Again this is nothing more then a " look we are great we give you this faction for free if you preorder! Don't mind the gak quality controll or the fact that it is cut content so you can pay us more before it gets reviewed or before the flaws are known. "

In any pre empire total war era game we would've just gotten them as an unlockable faction. So try again.

Yeah, OK, if you think the games quality is going to be bad, don't buy it.

But the rest is nonsense.

For one thing, the preorder bonus is going to be available for a week after the release date. So there is no 'before it gets reviewed' possibility.

Second, youtubers and streamers will (as is the norm with CA) have codes at least a week before hand, and will comb over the entire game before the release date even hits, so no, it won't be 'before the flaws are known.'

Thrones of Britannia got hit rather hard by that in fact, but they've still kept handing out because the know the bad press from not doing pre-release advertising is worse. The only thing kept back from Vampire Coast with the intro video and the final battle (the first was puzzling, the latter justifiable).

The preorder bonus is a minor incentive. This feels like shaking a fist at grocery stores for running 'buy two get one free sales,' and you missed the particular sale on <specific product> for this month, despite knowing there will be future sales.

Voss wrote:
Yeah, OK, if you think the games quality is going to be bad, don't buy it.

But the rest is nonsense.

For one thing, the preorder bonus is going to be available for a week after the release date. So there is no 'before it gets reviewed' possibility.

Second, youtubers and streamers will (as is the norm with CA) have codes at least a week before hand, and will comb over the entire game before the release date even hits, so no, it won't be 'before the flaws are known.'

Thrones of Britannia got hit rather hard by that in fact, but they've still kept handing out because the know the bad press from not doing pre-release advertising is worse. The only thing kept back from Vampire Coast with the intro video and the final battle (the first was puzzling, the latter justifiable).

The preorder bonus is a minor incentive. This feels like shaking a fist at grocery stores for running 'buy two get one free sales,' and you missed the particular sale on <specific product> for this month, despite knowing there will be future sales.

Mhm, sure and we are just ignoring that they cancled access before release for critical players for thrones?

I fail to understand why people are arguing that paying extra money for day 1 DLC that could have been in the game at launch is a good thing lol!
Admittedly it isn't the worst practice that the game industry has right now, but it is still definitely not customer friendly.

I think I'll wait a couple years to pick this game up, when I can get the whole game with all the factions for a tenner in some sale.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Mhm, sure and we are just ignoring that they cancled access before release for critical players for thrones?

Ignoring? No. Just not something I'm aware happened. The youtubers I watched were not particularly impressed or happy with it, yet never CA 'cancelled access.' CA even went out of their way to provide beta builds to a couple so that patches wouldn't screw up their Let's Plays.
Going to have to back this up with something.


@Kroem- there is no extra money involved. Either get it at release for zero dollars, or wait for a sale and get the base game and dlc for less dollars (than the base price of the main game).

Voss wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Mhm, sure and we are just ignoring that they cancled access before release for critical players for thrones?

Ignoring? No. Just not something I'm aware happened. The youtubers I watched were not particularly impressed or happy with it, yet never CA 'cancelled access.' CA even went out of their way to provide beta builds to a couple so that patches wouldn't screw up their Let's Plays.
Going to have to back this up with something.


@Kroem- there is no extra money involved. Either get it at release for zero dollars, or wait for a sale and get the base game and dlc for less dollars (than the base price of the main game).

Legend of totalwar is no youtuber in that case?

What part of 'not something I'm aware of' equals 'Specific guy is no youtuber?'

I don't keep track of them all, as there are unapologetically a lot of them. As I said, it didn't come up with the ones I do watch.