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 Primark G wrote:
I chose Hellblasters as with some easy buffs they can easily erase hard targets.

Not as easily as you think. You have to get to 15" to be truly effective. That's not easy.

Inceptors are really good too with the point reduction from CA - the plasma option is strong. I just wonder how long before Dark Reapers get hit with the nerf bat.

Given that, on average, Mortarion (with 18 wounds and a 4+ invul and Disgustingly Resilient) will require 81 Manticore shots (or about 12 vehicles worth of fire), the idea that Mortarion just routinely dies to hails of manticore fire doesnt jive terribly squarely in most practical contexts.

As for IG infantry, aside from board control, theyre not generally contributing much, and while board control has very real value, thats no different than literally every other edition of 40k where they were largely considered subpar garbage or mediocre at absolute best. There may be an argument for slight adjustments to certain things, but putting them in amongst the top 5 strongest units is being hyperbolic, much like previous claims about other IG units that have been addressed before.

Are there some things that should probably change? Yeah, indirect fire, in general, should require a spotter or have a modifier or something. Yeah the Shadowsword is a wee bit ridiculous. But the basic Infantry Squad being at the top of the powergaming list is...reaching.

I don't think so. The infantry squad facilitates the rest of the list. They don't have to contribute actively. They contribute by BEING.

 Elbows wrote:
Dark Reapers: While I think they're almost priced reasonably, the game rules make them better than they should be. However I dislike stacking dozens of rules to make units unhittable so while I own 12 of these models, no more than six come out unless you're being a dick. If you can't target/kill a handful of Toughness 3 models, that's a problem. They shouldn't get more than one turn of shooting normally.

Totally agree and why I have yet to pick up any. There may be a ton of rules that you can stack on them to make them powerful, but they can't really survive without at least 2-3 of those rules all together. By that point, you are investing a lot more into them than you really should.

And Eldar having powerful stratagems not only makes sense from a fluff perspective (tricksy elves), but it balances out the fact that they can't get as many CPs as other armies with access to cheaper Troops/HQs to fill Battalions/Brigades.
Most competitive Eldar lists struggle to get 10 total CPs, while most Imperium lists can easily pump out over a dozen CPs

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Martel732 wrote:
I don't think so. The infantry squad facilitates the rest of the list. They don't have to contribute actively. They contribute by BEING.

and how was the same not true in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th? Their tactical role, deployment methodology, etc hasnt really changed. Being a meatshield has what theyve always most famously been.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think so. The infantry squad facilitates the rest of the list. They don't have to contribute actively. They contribute by BEING.

and how was the same not true in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th? Their tactical role, deployment methodology, etc hasnt really changed. Being a meatshield has what theyve always most famously been.

8th edition changed. Number of bodies matters more now, as do bubble wraps. Arguably way more than prior editions.

-

They are much harder to remove as well. No more deep striking heavy flamers saying "bye-bye" instantly.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think so. The infantry squad facilitates the rest of the list. They don't have to contribute actively. They contribute by BEING.

and how was the same not true in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th? Their tactical role, deployment methodology, etc hasnt really changed. Being a meatshield has what theyve always most famously been.

They used to be extremely fragile with mediocre damage output. Now they are very durable with a very high damage out (with FRFSRF)

Attacking with S3 used to be very bad and a 5+ save used to be worthless. And they used to be 5 points per model (which I am sure they will be again)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:

Boyz: Still the most bang for your buck in the entire game when Ork character abilities are layered. I think there's no excuse for a cheap basic infantry model to get 5 attacks for any reason...at all. If they get better in the eventual Ork codex they'll be even more broken. So - not broken alone, but can be broken through assistance.

They can actually be buffed to 6 attacks per boy hitting on 2+. That is one attack per point. But that is not so easy to pull off.

Martel732 wrote:
They are much harder to remove as well. No more deep striking heavy flamers saying "bye-bye" instantly.

In some ways thats a fair point, I'll grant (though also limited largely to Space Marine armies in relevance) but given how you can also charge after deep striking now, and that DS is basically free of any variables or risk (no more scatter or mishap), that opens up new worlds of hurt for guardsmen. Also that you can doubletap with rapid fire weapons and still charge is another bonus to dealing with them. Sure they can fall back, but in most cases they're still probably dead or functionally broken either way.

pismakron wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't think so. The infantry squad facilitates the rest of the list. They don't have to contribute actively. They contribute by BEING.

and how was the same not true in 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and 7th? Their tactical role, deployment methodology, etc hasnt really changed. Being a meatshield has what theyve always most famously been.

They used to be extremely fragile with mediocre damage output. Now they are very durable with a very high damage out (with FRFSRF)

they're no more durable now relative to their previous edition incarnations than Orks, Grots, Guardians, Kabalite Warriors, Kroot, Gaunts, or any other light infantry unit. FRFSRF also isnt new, its been around for 9 years and 4 editions.

Attacking with S3 used to be very bad

it still is, only difference is now they can *potentially* hurt T7+ units (though not terribly well), otherwise against most things theyll actually be shooting at, S3 isnt any different than it was before.

and a 5+ save used to be worthless.

It's more useful now than it was before, but that goes for a dozens of units that arent guardsmen too. Yes, they get the 5+ against small arms fire now, but before with 4+ cover commonly available it wasnt always an issue either.

And they used to be 5 points per model (which I am sure they will be again)

we're talking a 1ppm change, which, even on relatively numerous units, probably isnt having the effect that many are ascribing here. Most IG lists have ~60 guardsmen (yes, some have lots more, some have none, 60 is what a typical brigade or double battalion will roll with), at 1850 or 2k, 60pts isnt going to swing guardsmen from being "ok" to "top 5".

No other units have a 5+ save for 4 ppm.

Charging from deep strike is a poor tactic, and it directly hard countered by the existence of guardsmen.

There might be a few more tools to hunt guardsmen, but the IG player doesn't care what happens to them. They are just there to buy time.

Martel732 wrote:
No other units have a 5+ save for 4 ppm.

Again, we're basically quibbling over 1ppm and 40-80pts in most tournament lists, not anything that should be catapulting a unit from "ok" to "top 5" status.

Charging from deep strike is a poor tactic,

that depends on the units in question, and is more an issue of "cant quite reach" than "bad idea". Sure, it wont always be smart or doable, but regardless, its another factor that does allow players another tool in the kit to engage those guardsmen on their own terms. Charging from DS/Infiltrate/etc wont always be applicable, but its there and *can* be powerful.

and it directly hard countered by the existence of guardsmen.

Having to clear through a screen of guardsmen isnt exactly a new 8E development...and you can use that DS charge as a method to clear such a screen as well.

There might be a few more tools to hunt guardsmen, but the IG player doesn't care what happens to them. They are just there to buy time.

which...again...is exactly what theyve always done...nothing has changed there, except now you have more tactical options than you did before.

Then why does it feel like marines have zero options?

It's a race. A race to clear the 4 ppm models before all the units that ignore LoS table your marines. There's nowhere to hide ,and making the assaults doesn't even change the outcome that much.

Fail assault -> marines get shot and die

Make assault and guardsmen aren't wiped -> the guardsmen leave CC and then marines get shot and die

Make assault and guardsmen ARE wiped -> marines get shot and die

There is no scenario where the marines live and even in the best case scenario, the IG has suffered no meaningful losses. In fact, I can't make IG suffer meaningful losses without my own shooting unless they allow it. I'm trading hundreds of points for 40 pts and I have no say in the matter whatsover.

If a guardian costs 8 ppm, maybe guardsmen should be 7 or 8. And then, that WOULD make a difference. Or make IG artillery/tanks a lot more expensive to reflect their infantry making them functionally immortal. Bottom line, the guardsmen beat you in the movement phase. IT doesn't matter if you clear them or not. They physically bar your movement, and that's game over right there.

The only other option is to shoot past them, and that's where the Bobby G lists come in. Because anything else is insanity the way the IG operate. BA might as well not even show up against them.

1 point more in the context of Infantry squads represents a increase of 25% in price. Thats huge. Just like Brimstones going from 2ppm to 3ppm.

 Galas wrote:
1 point more in the context of Infantry squads represents a increase of 25% in price. Thats huge. Just like Brimstones going from 2ppm to 3ppm.

And still might not be enough.

The list is biased, it needs many more options.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The list is biased, it needs many more options.

Such as?

Martel732 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The list is biased, it needs many more options.

Such as?

The entire IG codex?

Martel732 wrote:
IG: infantry squads should have a lot more votes. The fact that Bobby G has more votes shows a lack of understanding on the part of the community on what true power is in 8th.

Unless you're good at the game at which point...infantry squad ain't gak.

Necrons aren't exactly the shizzle these days, but Tesla Immortals and Scarabs and Wraiths might have deserved to be in position to be voted on.

ERJAK wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
IG: infantry squads should have a lot more votes. The fact that Bobby G has more votes shows a lack of understanding on the part of the community on what true power is in 8th.

Unless you're good at the game at which point...infantry squad ain't gak.

Until you play against another good player with ig squads in which case they are everything.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Still amused at how basic guardsmen are now a major powergaming element apparently...and Mortars?...oh my


For super serious though, for units that really force major shifts in how an opponent will have to deal with an army or can make or break a list or create killer combis, it's hard not to go with Dark Reapers, Bobby G, Celestine, Morty and Magnus.

They are only OP because they open up a brigade for as well as provide near assault immunity at the same time + their anti infantry firepower is quite massive for their cost.

Martel732 wrote:
Then why does it feel like marines have zero options?



It's a race. A race to clear the 4 ppm models before all the units that ignore LoS table your marines. There's nowhere to hide ,and making the assaults doesn't even change the outcome that much.

Fail assault -> marines get shot and die

Make assault and guardsmen aren't wiped -> the guardsmen leave CC and then marines get shot and die

Make assault and guardsmen ARE wiped -> marines get shot and die

There is no scenario where the marines live and even in the best case scenario, the IG has suffered no meaningful losses. In fact, I can't make IG suffer meaningful losses without my own shooting unless they allow it. I'm trading hundreds of points for 40 pts and I have no say in the matter whatsover.

Is this an "IG OP" thing, or more the type of build you want to play not working?

Because I want to play my chimera mounted mechanized grenadier stormtrooper regiment that ive been trying to make work since 4E and its not viable either.

Is every IG army literally able to table all your marines in one turn? You're assuming everything is gonna die as soon as it hits the table and that everything the IG have will be able to engage and destroy anything you have. Any time your Marines can be shot at, theyre automatically destroyed? There's never a gap in a line, and the IG player isnt also ceding control of the field in the process?

I have yet to accomplish such a feat or seen it accomplshed.

Likewise, in most of the above circumstances, the outcome wouldnt have been much different in previous editions, if you made it ito CC (though obviously not from DS) you probably wiped the unit and were exposed to fire. You could fail charges and be stuck for a turn. About the only difference is that, if the arent wiped, they can withdraw, but that is relatively minor most of the time too (as usually theyll be wiped one way or the other). For the most part, I'm not seeing where theres a huge difference from 7E to 8E here with basic guardsmen.

I find myself forced to wonder, is every army you face 9 Manticores behind an LoS blocking hill and 90 guardsmen arrayed in front playing from short edges? If so, ok, but otherwise it doesnt make much sense.

If a guardian costs 8 ppm, maybe guardsmen should be 7 or 8

When they get battle focus, BS3+, S4 pseuorending weapons, etc, then lets talk. As is, they have to rely on purchased officers being nearby for buffs and they end up in that range after kit and support units. Im also all for making Guardians cheaper, they should have been cheaper for the last 5 editions.

. And then, that WOULD make a difference. Or make IG artillery/tanks a lot more expensive to reflect their infantry making them functionally immortal.

Yes, the presence of infantry makes IG tanks immortal. Ok. There's no other way to engage and destroy tanks than through the use of heavy infantry assault units? We've been through most IG vehicles and their comparative performance before and they didnt appear to be wildly overpowered in doing so. As I stated before, im all up for some changes to no-LoS weapons in general, but not everything in the IG army ignores LoS, and those units generally arent being run by the dozen either. To reference earlier, when Morty was brought up, yeah Manticores can kill him, but it takes a dozen turns worth of Manticore fire to do so...

 Galas wrote:
1 point more in the context of Infantry squads represents a increase of 25% in price. Thats huge. Just like Brimstones going from 2ppm to 3ppm.

5 would make them appropriate. They would still be great at that price. IMO they are much better than a hormagant which costs 5. They are probably better than a gargoyle at 6 too. Manticore should be 165-175 IMO.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
The list is biased, it needs many more options.

Such as?

The entire IG codex?

Which five units would you pick that arn't on the list and are also better than every other unit in the game?

 Galef wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Dark Reapers: While I think they're almost priced reasonably, the game rules make them better than they should be. However I dislike stacking dozens of rules to make units unhittable so while I own 12 of these models, no more than six come out unless you're being a dick. If you can't target/kill a handful of Toughness 3 models, that's a problem. They shouldn't get more than one turn of shooting normally.

Totally agree and why I have yet to pick up any. There may be a ton of rules that you can stack on them to make them powerful, but they can't really survive without at least 2-3 of those rules all together. By that point, you are investing a lot more into them than you really should.

And Eldar having powerful stratagems not only makes sense from a fluff perspective (tricksy elves), but it balances out the fact that they can't get as many CPs as other armies with access to cheaper Troops/HQs to fill Battalions/Brigades.
Most competitive Eldar lists struggle to get 10 total CPs, while most Imperium lists can easily pump out over a dozen CPs

-

You can make a very competitive 2x battalion elder list. All of these units are good in their own way.
Farseer100
Autarch on Jetbike Reaper launcher/starlance130
2x Spiritseer 90
3x5 Rangers 180
2x5x Dire-avengers w exarch 128
(Serpent 3x SC 134)
1x20 man guardian w 2x SC 190

That's a legit 9 command point army minimum for 862 points - You could still take 30 reapers and another hq in this army too in this army too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OFC Guilliman leading the way here with almost 1/6 people thinking hes a top 5 most broken units.

I think assault sucks this edition. I don't like running things that suck. So no, it's not about what i want. You were the one that brought up assault from ds, not i. My position is that guardsmen almost win by default because almost nothing in the game is efficient at removing them. Theres mortars and grav flux bombards i guess.

Yup, here we go again. The community will not be satisfied until every unit in the IG codex is irrelevant. If the people calling for nerfs to IG actually had any interest in balance they would be asking for buffs to commissars. That hasn't happened. In your crusade against conscripts you have essentially deleted not 1 but 2 units from our codex. Commissars are just as likely to help you as screw you over now. No point in taking them. Just take regimental standard for leadership buffs. Conscripts & commissars will end up like penal legion, medusas, & half of our special characters. Now its guardsmen & mortars? Not everyone plays Catachans. The effectiveness of Catachan mortars is vastly better than other regiments. Nerfing them would essentially delete them from non Catachan lists. Guardsmen 5+ ppm? How did that work out in 7th? IG players got absolutely murdered.

As long as every single top Imperium list spams guardsmen, I will call for a nerf on them. As long as IG artillery tanks punch above their point cost, I'm going to call for a nerf on them. IG are frustrating and outrageous to play against. They are neo-Eldar of 8th ed. Sorry if that bothers you but it's empirically true, I think.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
Yup, here we go again. The community will not be satisfied until every unit in the IG codex is irrelevant. If the people calling for nerfs to IG actually had any interest in balance they would be asking for buffs to commissars. That hasn't happened. In your crusade against conscripts you have essentially deleted not 1 but 2 units from our codex. Commissars are just as likely to help you as screw you over now. No point in taking them. Just take regimental standard for leadership buffs. Conscripts & commissars will end up like penal legion, medusas, & half of our special characters. Now its guardsmen & mortars? Not everyone plays Catachans. The effectiveness of Catachan mortars is vastly better than other regiments. Nerfing them would essentially delete them from non Catachan lists. Guardsmen 5+ ppm? How did that work out in 7th? IG players got absolutely murdered.

The frustartion you feel comes from warhammer not having a lot of moving ellements. If you compare it to say magic the gathering you have different cards that are goodat diferent levels in the game. X-wing is smaller and has much bigger focus on movement of the small units and syngergi between units. Warhammer have some of this. Dark reapers + farseer is a synergistic unit, but you can not take many of it because of restrictions on the psykick phase. IG has fever of these restrictions. Orders is a good atemt, but it is not as important to the playstyle as just spamming the good units are. Lascannon has superior range and cost nothing negating a lot of counterplay. Mortars you can't even hide from. Quite good.Horrible hard to balance as their efectivness is often binary and can be deducted by mathhammer.