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The best always comes to the top in any competitive environment. Right now dark reaper spam in the right hands can wreck anything in the game full stop. But when they get nerfed, and they will and should, IG is going to quickly become the unbeatable because reaper spam was the only predator to the otherwise unstoppable IG who have insane artillery, infantry, CP generation, and tanks which few normal lists can actually handle.

A percicieved streanght will also increase the liklyhood of people playing a list. Less exlorer type players as assassin and achievers start moving into the meta and play established things. So far 8tyeditionhas been great at fighting this!

Voted: girlyman, razors, ig infantry, scions, celestine. Haven't played vs dark reapers yet, so can't tell.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Dark Reapers: While I think they're almost priced reasonably, the game rules make them better than they should be. However I dislike stacking dozens of rules to make units unhittable so while I own 12 of these models, no more than six come out unless you're being a dick. If you can't target/kill a handful of Toughness 3 models, that's a problem. They shouldn't get more than one turn of shooting normally.

Totally agree and why I have yet to pick up any. There may be a ton of rules that you can stack on them to make them powerful, but they can't really survive without at least 2-3 of those rules all together. By that point, you are investing a lot more into them than you really should.

And Eldar having powerful stratagems not only makes sense from a fluff perspective (tricksy elves), but it balances out the fact that they can't get as many CPs as other armies with access to cheaper Troops/HQs to fill Battalions/Brigades.
Most competitive Eldar lists struggle to get 10 total CPs, while most Imperium lists can easily pump out over a dozen CPs

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You can make a very competitive 2x battalion elder list. All of these units are good in their own way.
Farseer100
Autarch on Jetbike Reaper launcher/starlance130
2x Spiritseer 90
3x5 Rangers 180
2x5x Dire-avengers w exarch 128
(Serpent 3x SC 134)
1x20 man guardian w 2x SC 190

That's a legit 9 command point army minimum for 862 points - You could still take 30 reapers and another hq in this army too in this army too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OFC Guilliman leading the way here with almost 1/6 people thinking hes a top 5 most broken units.

well people tend to have long memories of broken things, even after somethings been enrfed in a FAQ people still remember it as broken unless it was spectacularly nerfed. I think Gulliman though is a strong option that simply synergizes so well with anything (best with ultramarines yeah but any IoM army would benifit from having him along) thing is synergy is one of those things that is hard to price/balance around.

Guilliman, celestine and magnus.

Ban named LoWs for the sake of 40k.

To complete the top 5 I'd say stormraven and scions. Razorbacks should be included as well but with only 5 choices they're out. Dark reapers are overpowered only against some list, if they face a green tide they won't be that scary and hordes are pretty common in this edition, I think SM in particular hate them but they're definitely not in the top 5 of the strongest units.

AdmiralHalsey wrote:

Which five units would you pick that arn't on the list and are also better than every other unit in the game?

Off the top of my head I can think of a few more daemon units that I'd consider to be extremely powerful.
Not a single blood angel unit in the list?
There is at least one major Tyranid unit missing from the list.
There's no forge world units at all?
No Drukhari or Harlequins? No Ynarri?
Bullgryns?
AdMech are underrepresented.

The whole 5 choices is irrelevant when people can select every option.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
No Drukhari or Harlequins? No Ynarri?

Ynnari are dead. A detachment with Yvraine, Dark reapers and SS is somewhat competitive, but it's only because SS and DR are insanely good on their own. So the OP vote should still go to these two units.
Drukhari? Seriously?
Harlequins? Troupes with fusion and embraces in Starweavers are good for sure. But not OP, and completely useless against properly screened units.

fresus wrote:
Ynnari are dead.

I see what you did there.

fresus wrote:
A detachment with Yvraine, Dark reapers and SS is somewhat competitive, but it's only because SS and DR are insanely good on their own. So the OP vote should still go to these two units.

Are they better if they are allied with Ynarri? If so we should have the option to differentiate. Besides, it's a decision for the community to make, not you or I.

fresus wrote:
Drukhari? Seriously?
Harlequins? Troupes with fusion and embraces in Starweavers are good for sure. But not OP, and completely useless against properly screened units.

Yea Drukhari, I'm sure they have one or two units that can be considered powerful.
Harlequins are strong, they featured in all of the top Aeldari lists before Craftworld codex was released and they did well. Also the OP isn't calling for OP units, he's calling for strongest units. Harlies in Starweaver will be taken with some anti screening units I'd have thought so if we're going to assume Girlyman is the strongest unit in game, because of how he interacts with other units, we should surely assume the other units in this list are interacting with other units?

Anyway, as I said, the decision is not ours to make re Ynarri, Drukhari or Harlies but when a list is presented in such a way as this I can't help but feel it's a list of units that the OP perceives as too strong rather than the community.

I'm amazed not to see Broodlord on the list. Genuinely.
I'm amazed not to see Fiends of Slaanesh on the list. They have a unique ability that completely changes one of the core rules of the game.
Where are Bloodletters? Their biggest weakness (having to footslog) has now been removed.
No Skarbrand? Again we can't leave combat and he is a beast. If positioned correctly he only buffs his allies.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Anyway, as I said, the decision is not ours to make re Ynarri, Drukhari or Harlies but when a list is presented in such a way as this I can't help but feel it's a list of units that the OP perceives as too strong rather than the community.

The OP cannot add every single unit to the list, he has to make a choice, and we can point out specific units if we think they should be included.
I still can't think of any Drukhari unit that comes even close to the top 5.
Harlequin troupes were indeed very good when the index came out (when they were featured in most good Aeldari lists), but I really don't see them close to the current top 5. It's impossible to remove a good screening unit efficiently and fast enough to leverage the Harlies offensive power (melee and 6" fusion guns), which is why they can't compete with the top dogs that bring mass cheap infantry.

The goal is not to list good units, but just the 5 best in the game. That's why some factions don't even appear on the list.

fresus wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Anyway, as I said, the decision is not ours to make re Ynarri, Drukhari or Harlies but when a list is presented in such a way as this I can't help but feel it's a list of units that the OP perceives as too strong rather than the community.

The OP cannot add every single unit to the list, he has to make a choice, and we can point out specific units if we think they should be included.
I still can't think of any Drukhari unit that comes even close to the top 5.
Harlequin troupes were indeed very good when the index came out (when they were featured in most good Aeldari lists), but I really don't see them close to the current top 5. It's impossible to remove a good screening unit efficiently and fast enough to leverage the Harlies offensive power (melee and 6" fusion guns), which is why they can't compete with the top dogs that bring mass cheap infantry.

The goal is not to list good units, but just the 5 best in the game. That's why some factions don't even appear on the list.

And as I said, there are units that should be on the list and aren't, in my opinion.

I've mentioned a number.

It really depends what is meant by strongest unit. If you mean, strongest unit in a vacuum, it would have to be Magnus/Mortarian.

If we mean most overpowered in an army context, then Imperial Guard Infantry is vastly too good relative to points. However, this is with regiment/character buffs/orders factored in. The IG army has a huge issue where this are too many layers of bonuses. Crap units like guard should not be getting rerolls from characters - the synergy should come through the orders system (which is already great). Guard units should not be getting rerolls, they are the worst of the worst - they should be boosted through regimental discipline and command structure. Similarly, they should be tactically inflexible. That warlord trait where they can recycle CP is absurd - they already get a vast amount of CPs through their design, to be able to do this as well just is unfluffy and bad design. These all add up to make the guard units far too good relative to function and value (they also slow the game down).

Dark Reapers are strong in a way that feels bad for the army design. Broadly the Eldar codex has good internal balance and it is pleasing that Guardians are now actually capable of things - they are no longer a burden! But Dark Reapers stick out like a sore thumb. They are a no brainer, even without buffs (of which there are plenty). A points hike to a level higher than the Index would easily resolve them.

Gulliman and Cawl are silly ones for the same reason as Dark Reapers, they are far too obvious choices. Yes, you can argue that what they are buffing isn’t the greatest but they significantly shape the Chapter Tactics/Forgeworld taken, deployment, formation and movement. They require no skill or thought to use, are difficult to kill and slow the game down. They are bad for the game because of the wider impact they have on army building and play style. Give them a couple more wounds and they’d be fine.
Magnus and Mortarian unbalance the game for different reasons. They tend to make an all or nothing game. If the Primarch user is able to preserve them until they get into the enemy, then they are likely to win, but quite often they have every AT weapon wiping them off the table. It makes for an incredibly binary outcome. You also end up with weird armies where significant portions are spent increasing the survivability of this already high cost unit.

Boyz: Still the most bang for your buck in the entire game when Ork character abilities are layered. I think there's no excuse for a cheap basic infantry model to get 5 attacks for any reason...at all. If they get better in the eventual Ork codex they'll be even more broken. So - not broken alone, but can be broken through assistance.

I was waiting for someone to use this argument. This edition started and I said boyz would be doing well until everyone figured out how easy it is to kill them. Now don't get me wrong, they are without a doubt the strongest unit Orkz possess, but they are only good if you take 120+ of them or a similar unit like Kommandos or stormboyz which are basically boyz with cool deployment or movement options. To me that isn't OP, it's just spam. If you took only 30 or 60 of them it wouldn't be even considered good let alone OP.

I read plagueburster crawlers ? Are they really so powerful ? I thought they were some kind of mixed bags

SemperMortis wrote:

Boyz: Still the most bang for your buck in the entire game when Ork character abilities are layered. I think there's no excuse for a cheap basic infantry model to get 5 attacks for any reason...at all. If they get better in the eventual Ork codex they'll be even more broken. So - not broken alone, but can be broken through assistance.

I was waiting for someone to use this argument. This edition started and I said boyz would be doing well until everyone figured out how easy it is to kill them. Now don't get me wrong, they are without a doubt the strongest unit Orkz possess, but they are only good if you take 120+ of them or a similar unit like Kommandos or stormboyz which are basically boyz with cool deployment or movement options. To me that isn't OP, it's just spam. If you took only 30 or 60 of them it wouldn't be even considered good let alone OP.

That argument can be made for IG as well. If you have one unit of 10 guardsmen in your force they aren't taking out swathes of models. You just need a lot of them as a meat shield, and with that comes high volume of fire.

for units i have used/ faced against this edition

Eversor assassin for the points they are terrific value and can be horrific
Neutron dune crawlers
Bobby G
Dark Reapers
any unit that due to their faction benefit can get themselves to at least -2 to hit

phillv85 wrote:
That argument can be made for IG as well. If you have one unit of 10 guardsmen in your force they aren't taking out swathes of models. You just need a lot of them as a meat shield, and with that comes high volume of fire.

There are a few differences;
1. Guard have access to a plethora of buffs that allow them to perform way better than what's intended.
2. Guard have access to far more buffs than a unit of Ork Boyz.
3. Guardsmen serve primarily, as you have said, as a meatshield. They perform this role (and others) too well for their cost.
4. The scariest thing about Ork Boyz is when 30 suddenly appear just over 9" away. That is not an inherent strength - it's Boyz + Weirdboy that is scary.
5. There are certain units that Boyz can literally do nothing about - flyers of almost every flavour, for example. Guardsmen are more flexible in this regard.
6. While Boyz are the strongest thing in the index, they are the ONLY thing to be scared of in an Ork list. Guardsmen are not the only legitimate threat in an IG list, they are simply the thing stopping you getting to the other (juicier) threats.

The original statement; "Boyz: Still the most bang for your buck in the entire game when Ork character abilities are layered" is entirely incorrect. Boyz are more points efficient with no character buffs. Why do you think no one takes Painboyz or KFF Meks? The most useful 'buff' the OG statement refers to is likely "Warpath" (and if taken means the Weirdboy can't take....) and "Da Jump" which are both psychic powers. So they can be cast once per turn.

Trust me, as an Ork player, the thing any opponent should be most scared of is the Weirdboys and Warboss, in that order. Weirdboys allow da jump shenanigans and completely bypass the biggest Ork problem - lack of speed. They also enable Orks to hurt high Toughness, good save, multi-wound targets through Smite. Warbosses also help with the movement issues because they allow Boyz to advance and charge in the same turn.

If you want to know what's "OP" in regards Ork choices the only real candidate is the KMK, in my opinion. Something that again, isn't on the list.

No, the point still stands exactly as I said. My point was that you needed numbers to make them viable. 10 guardsmen aren't doing anything with all the buffs in the game.

Not played much but Saint Celestine was impressive

And now you can buy her on her own (well with the twins I think)

Oblitorstors.

At worst, they are auto cannons, at best, statistical better laz cannons. I have melted knights in a single turn of shooting. A 195 point unit, wasting a 400+point unit in a single round.

phillv85 wrote:
No, the point still stands exactly as I said. My point was that you needed numbers to make them viable. 10 guardsmen aren't doing anything with all the buffs in the game.

I said 30-60 boyz not 10. A comparable number of guardsmen points wise would be 45-90. And in that number they are amazingly good at their task of being a meatshield and being able to push out a ridiculous number of shots at 24inches with FRFSRF

Boyz in such small numbers are useless because to even threaten a target they have to be within 17 inches of them at the start of the turn, (23 with a warboss nearby) and that isn't even a real threat until they close to about 13 (19) inches. Boyz are not doing well anymore because people have been bringing more anti horde weapons and weapons that obliterate any chance of Orkz retaliating.

Commisars should cost 28-30ppm and reduce morale loses by D6 after killing 1 dude. (With Lord Commisars reducing morale loses 2d6 and Yarrick 3d6)

Since the release of codex: daemons, bloodletters have suddenly become amazeballs.
For a few CP and ~ 200ish points you can drop a 30 man blob 9" away and roll 3d6 charge. Stupid number of attacks with decent WS/STR/AP, and once the screen is dead your opponent has to deal with this blob of guys so the rest of your army is safer for a turn. Do it again next turn and suddenly all his big guns are tied up/dead. all for a little over 400 points and 6 CP

Dark Angels Hellblasters or Plasma cannonade Doreto are in my top 5.

CassianSol wrote:
Dark Reapers are strong in a way that feels bad for the army design. Broadly the Eldar codex has good internal balance and it is pleasing that Guardians are now actually capable of things - they are no longer a burden! But Dark Reapers stick out like a sore thumb. They are a no brainer, even without buffs (of which there are plenty). A points hike to a level higher than the Index would easily resolve them.

I kind of agree, however you have to keep in mind that Reapers are still T3 1W models. I wouldn't go more the 32-35ppm total. Actually, it might be better just to drop their "always hit on 3+" rule and replace it with "never suffer -1 for firing Heavy weapons". Or even just drop the special snowflake rule entirely and give them BS2+ like the Crismon Hunters. That way they have to stay still of suffer -1 (thus hitting on 3+ as they do now), and can be affected by other units that impose other -1s

This would also make dropping them via Webway strike less appealing as they would count as moving (even though they'd still hit on 3+ like now). Also making them BS2+ would mess with the way they get re-rolls. A Guided Reaper unit with BS2+ could NOT re-roll 2s since re-rolls happen before modifiers.

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SemperMortis wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
No, the point still stands exactly as I said. My point was that you needed numbers to make them viable. 10 guardsmen aren't doing anything with all the buffs in the game.

I said 30-60 boyz not 10. A comparable number of guardsmen points wise would be 45-90. And in that number they are amazingly good at their task of being a meatshield and being able to push out a ridiculous number of shots at 24inches with FRFSRF

If we're doing a numerical comparison and are taking FRFSRF into account, we have to take into account Officers as well.

90 guardsmen and the bare minimum number of officers to make FRFSRF available for all squads is 500pts before any upgrades or kit, in which case we're looking at more than 80+ Boyz for that same investment, not 60.

 Galef wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Dark Reapers are strong in a way that feels bad for the army design. Broadly the Eldar codex has good internal balance and it is pleasing that Guardians are now actually capable of things - they are no longer a burden! But Dark Reapers stick out like a sore thumb. They are a no brainer, even without buffs (of which there are plenty). A points hike to a level higher than the Index would easily resolve them.

I kind of agree, however you have to keep in mind that Reapers are still T3 1W models. I wouldn't go more the 32-35ppm total. Actually, it might be better just to drop their "always hit on 3+" rule and replace it with "never suffer -1 for firing Heavy weapons". Or even just drop the special snowflake rule entirely and give them BS2+ like the Crismon Hunters. That way they have to stay still of suffer -1 (thus hitting on 3+ as they do now), and can be affected by other units that impose other -1s

This would also make dropping them via Webway strike less appealing as they would count as moving (even though they'd still hit on 3+ like now). Also making them BS2+ would mess with the way they get re-rolls. A Guided Reaper unit with BS2+ could NOT re-roll 2s since re-rolls happen before modifiers.

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Compared to a marine with a ml, they are 40 ppm easy. Lose some rules or pay a lot of points.

Martel732 wrote:
Compared to a marine with a ml, they are 40 ppm easy. Lose some rules or pay a lot of points.

T3 is still a big deal (not as much as prior editions, but still). I'd say a 35ppm Reaper with BS2+ and no other special unit rules (other than the general Eldar ones) would be fair.
Keep in mind the part of the Marine's points cost is the S4, grenades and morale mitigating ATSKNF. Whether those rules actually help a devastor shoot is irrelevant, he has the rules and they cost.

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T3 is not a big deal at all. Just stop.

35 ppm is 2 pts cheaper than that marine with a ML. They are still an autotake. You have to price them so that its' actually a question of whether to use them.

Whether rules help a given model is completely relevant, as this is the philosophy that has crippled basal marines for decades.

Shadowsword
Guilliman
Magnus
Manticore

the last slot is close between Scions and AL Bezerkers, I think. Scions are still too strong for cost, but they're nowhere near where they were when they were released [mostly because you can only have 1 CS unit], but Bezerkers are also hilariously strong. I've heard there's some Eldar stuff, but it's basically SM, IG, and Tyranids where I am, so I haven't seen the Eldar in action.

I'm not entirely certain that the Shadowsword is better than Guilliman or Magnus, but it's definitely up there.

Martel732 wrote:
T3 is not a big deal at all. Just stop.

35 ppm is 2 pts cheaper than that marine with a ML.

Whether rules help a given model is completely relevant, as this is the philosophy that has crippled basal marines for decades.

To be fair, I'd argue the ML Marines are probably too expensive to begin with. I think you can agree with that too.
With no rules changes at all, just points, I agree that Reapers are worth more than ML Marines.

My point is that they SHOULDN"T be. Tweak what needs to be tweaked, but no 1 wound Eldar should be more than its equivalent role Marine.

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