Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Galef wrote:

CassianSol wrote:
Dark Reapers are strong in a way that feels bad for the army design. Broadly the Eldar codex has good internal balance and it is pleasing that Guardians are now actually capable of things - they are no longer a burden! But Dark Reapers stick out like a sore thumb. They are a no brainer, even without buffs (of which there are plenty). A points hike to a level higher than the Index would easily resolve them.

I kind of agree, however you have to keep in mind that Reapers are still T3 1W models. I wouldn't go more the 32-35ppm total. Actually, it might be better just to drop their "always hit on 3+" rule and replace it with "never suffer -1 for firing Heavy weapons". Or even just drop the special snowflake rule entirely and give them BS2+ like the Crismon Hunters. That way they have to stay still of suffer -1 (thus hitting on 3+ as they do now), and can be affected by other units that impose other -1s

This would also make dropping them via Webway strike less appealing as they would count as moving (even though they'd still hit on 3+ like now). Also making them BS2+ would mess with the way they get re-rolls. A Guided Reaper unit with BS2+ could NOT re-roll 2s since re-rolls happen before modifiers.

-

Ehhh - bs 2+ would probably break them even more but it's more of a give and take there. First - I'd say that reapers should be capped at 5x models per unit. Next to compare them to a marine with a heavy. +1 T is worth roughly 2 ppm +1 S and a grenade is worth 1 ppm. Their weapons can be considered about even in krak mode but the reaper launcher secondary mode is far superior that alone is 5 ppm additional cost that needs to be added. The special rule to always hit on 3's is worth an additional 5 ppm - not only does it mean you can move and shoot without penalty - it also means -1 to stacking is ignored as well. So I think they should cost +9 to a marine with a missile.

 Galef wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
T3 is not a big deal at all. Just stop.

35 ppm is 2 pts cheaper than that marine with a ML.

Whether rules help a given model is completely relevant, as this is the philosophy that has crippled basal marines for decades.

To be fair, I'd argue the ML Marines are probably too expensive to begin with. I think you can agree with that too.
With no rules changes at all, just points, I agree that Reapers are worth more than ML Marines.

My point is that they SHOULDN"T be. Tweak what needs to be tweaked, but no 1 wound Eldar should be more than its equivalent role Marine.

-

Eldar have always been better than their equivalent role marine. Eldar get useful special rules and marines get S4 and grenades .

phillv85 wrote:
No, the point still stands exactly as I said. My point was that you needed numbers to make them viable. 10 guardsmen aren't doing anything with all the buffs in the game.

Hot damn. That is some useful information. A low point cost, low statline model needs large numbers to make them viable?! Holy cow man do you have any more incredible tips? I think all of my points still stand also. Ork Boyz aren't anywhere near OP in the same way IG Infantry are.

Yup 45 sounds about right for their rule set.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
No, the point still stands exactly as I said. My point was that you needed numbers to make them viable. 10 guardsmen aren't doing anything with all the buffs in the game.

Hot damn. That is some useful information. A low point cost, low statline model needs large numbers to make them viable?! Holy cow man do you have any more incredible tips? I think all of my points still stand also. Ork Boyz aren't anywhere near OP in the same way IG Infantry are.

Ork boyz aren't protecting the most broken tanks and artillery in the game.

Voted Maggy, Morty and Girly because of their force multiplication and buffing capabilities.
Stealers because when used right they are wrecking machines.
Manticore/Basilisk for similar reasons (i.e hidden behind IG gun walls/BLoS/screens).

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oblitorstors.

At worst, they are auto cannons, at best, statistical better laz cannons. I have melted knights in a single turn of shooting. A 195 point unit, wasting a 400+point unit in a single round.

I wish people would stop with gak like this. This is so unlikely as to not even be worth consideration.

Since Boyz are on here I have no idea why Bloodletters aren't? Particularly when they can deep strike for CP.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oblitorstors.

At worst, they are auto cannons, at best, statistical better laz cannons. I have melted knights in a single turn of shooting. A 195 point unit, wasting a 400+point unit in a single round.

I wish people would stop with gak like this. This is so unlikely as to not even be worth consideration.

Ehh I wouldn't call them a top 5 unit. They are getting better with these bonkers nurgle tress though. Being daemons they can benift from the +2 to cover save provided by being within 6 inches of the tree. This gives the Oblits a 0+ save. Meaning they will have a 3+ save against las cannons and a 2+ save against dark reapers....Prepare to watch these things get spammed to high heaven.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oblitorstors.

At worst, they are auto cannons, at best, statistical better laz cannons. I have melted knights in a single turn of shooting. A 195 point unit, wasting a 400+point unit in a single round.

I wish people would stop with gak like this. This is so unlikely as to not even be worth consideration.

Ehh I wouldn't call them a top 5 unit. They are getting better with these bonkers nurgle tress though. Being daemons they can benift from the +2 to cover save provided by being within 6 inches of the tree. This gives the Oblits a 0+ save. Meaning they will have a 3+ save against las cannons and a 2+ save against dark reapers....Prepare to watch these things get spammed to high heaven.

The other thing to consider is how cheap they are too. They are only 195 points for potentially 12 laz Cannon shots. That can benefit from heretics and daemon powers, can deep strike, have a 3+ armor and a 5++ are 3 wounds a piece.

They are honestly the best unit in the chaos codex on their own excluding primarchs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I have done that with my oblits to knights several times reliably. I run 2 squads of them with a sorcerer, so 24 shots are gonna burn most anything.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Oblitorstors.

At worst, they are auto cannons, at best, statistical better laz cannons. I have melted knights in a single turn of shooting. A 195 point unit, wasting a 400+point unit in a single round.

I wish people would stop with gak like this. This is so unlikely as to not even be worth consideration.

Ehh I wouldn't call them a top 5 unit. They are getting better with these bonkers nurgle tress though. Being daemons they can benift from the +2 to cover save provided by being within 6 inches of the tree. This gives the Oblits a 0+ save. Meaning they will have a 3+ save against las cannons and a 2+ save against dark reapers....Prepare to watch these things get spammed to high heaven.

The other thing to consider is how cheap they are too. They are only 195 points for potentially 12 laz Cannon shots. That can benefit from heretics and daemon powers, can deep strike, have a 3+ armor and a 5++ are 3 wounds a piece.

They are honestly the best unit in the chaos codex on their own excluding primarchs


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also I have done that with my oblits to knights several times reliably. I run 2 squads of them with a sorcerer, so 24 shots are gonna burn most anything.

They have 2+ armor.

Sorry 2+ not 3 + fat fingers on a little phone.

I still can't believe all the salt over IG here... Manticores already had their prices bumped, Scions had melta and plasma both increased to SM costs (thereby also making vet squads and CCS's, which were fine, less useful), and both conscripts and commissars were nerfed into uselessness. Can people give it a rest already?

Scions are just fine for their price. They cost almost as much as SM's, pay SM price for their weapons and don't benefit from even their own regimental doctrine most of the time. They drop in and die. I've never used them and seen them last more than 1 turn on the board. Their ability to deepstrike is nice, but at the end of the day they're a glass cannon.

Manticores... fore pete's sake people.. just shoot them with anti-tank weaponry and they go down! I don't want to hear all this gak about them being completely out of LoS all the time too when the IG player is supposedly dropping 9 of them. Can you kill a predator? GREAT. you can kill a manticore.

As far as IG infantry squads go, I keep hearing people go on about them being powerful because of buffs. You know aside from doctrines those buffs cost pts right? A company commander costs 30 pts and can only give 2 squads orders normally and is otherwise -literally useless-. That 30 pt price tag to issue orders to 2 squads raises the average price of those "buffed" guardsmen to 5.5 pts a model. Still sound OP? That's a 37% increase in the average ppm just to get orders that amount to firing 1-2 more shots, or rerolling 1's on something. I don't see anyone complaining about cultists that are the same price, come in blobs like conscripts, and are easily made fearless. I played all through 7th, and 5ppm IG infantry were utterly useless garbage.

Here's my synopsis.
-stop comparing units (ANY faction's unit) to equivalent units that are worse than the average.
-stop equating units being "Good" with "OP", or "too powerful". It's fine for a faction to have a unit that's better than another's equivalent unit.
-stop calling for knee-jerk reaction nerfs to units. GW has shown they're listening and has shown how stupid things get when you listen to the community's reactions. You get just as many bad nerfs as you get good ones and not much really improves.

Spoken like an IG player.

"Everything's fine here, move along."

Manticores are still too cheap. 4 ppm is too cheap for a model with 5+ armor. Basilisks are too cheap. Russes are too cheap. Mortar teams are too cheap. Scions are still too cheap. Shall I go on?

And IG infantry is powerful because it exists. They don't need buffs or upgrades or auras. Just stand there and win the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Spoken like an IG player.

"Everything's fine here, move along."

Manticores are still too cheap. 4 ppm is too cheap for a model with 5+ armor. Basilisks are too cheap. Russes are too cheap. Mortar teams are too cheap. Scions are still too cheap. Shall I go on?

And IG infantry is powerful because it exists. They don't need buffs or upgrades or auras. Just stand there and win the game.

Spoken like a true salt shaker. "Everything is too cheap. Nerf it all"

Better nerf conscripts and commissars again, just to play it safe.

Not everything. Just a lot of things. Guardsmen in particular are in nearly every high-placing Imperial list. That's a huge red flag. Just like people fielding 50 dark reapers. The red flags will draw attention from GW.

Lots of IG players are not handling their Eldar moment very well.

Martel732 wrote:
Not everything. Just a lot of things. Guardsmen in particular are in nearly every high-placing Imperial list. That's a huge red flag. Just like people fielding 50 dark reapers. The red flags will draw attention from GW.

Lots of IG players are not handling their Eldar moment very well.

There's a difference between spamming, and using. Just because it's in most high placing imperial lists, doesn't mean it's a red flag. 50 dark reapers is a lot of points invested in them. 60 guardsmen is hardly any.

That's exactly the problem. 60 guardsmen should be a more significant investment because of all the utility they provide. It IS a red flag.

240 points for more models than my entire army of primaris infantry at 2000 points? GTFO.

 Xenomancers wrote:
240 points for more models than my entire army of primaris infantry at 2000 points? GTFO.

You remember my post? Where I said stop comparing any army's units to equivilent units that are worse than average? Apparently you didn't read it. But sure.. go ahead, keep comparing an above average infantry like IG, to a terrible infantry like pure primaris marines, and keep expecting your perspective not to get skewed.

OMG, you can put 60 primaris models on the board for 2k pts, but I only get 15 Leman russes for that costs? PLZ NERF.

There is no infantry comparable to guardsmen. That's the problem. There is no artillery comparable to IG artillery. There are no psykers comparable to your psykers. There are few tanks comparable to the Russ. Hell, Bullgryns are better at CC than my BA.

 Xenomancers wrote:
240 points for more models than my entire army of primaris infantry at 2000 points? GTFO.

OOOH Model count is the entire way to measure strength to an army (sarcasm, but muted.. because GK are bad, Primaris are bad), in that way Orks will field 240 boyz, THEY must be the strongest

It's not model count per se, but immunity to assault and deep strike and objective capping power. Those things are derived from model count. I respect these things way more than Bobby G. IG can throw out Bobby G level firepower and cover the board. Bobby G is buffing non-flyers and so they have to huddle in a corner. Frankly, I'm surprised Bobby G ever does well in ITC.

 chrispy1991 wrote:
I played all through 7th, and 5ppm IG infantry were utterly useless garbage.

Here is where your argument falls down. You are scared of 5ppm Infantry because you didn't have a good time in 7th. This isn't 7th. They are way, WAAAYYY better now. They are worth at least 5 ppm.

Martel732 wrote:
It's not model count per se, but immunity to assault and deep strike and objective capping power. Those things are derived from model count. I respect these things way more than Bobby G. IG can throw out Bobby G level firepower and cover the board. Bobby G is buffing non-flyers and so they have to huddle in a corner. Frankly, I'm surprised Bobby G ever does well in ITC.

Model count seems to have an impact in the metas, I don't want to make It sound like it doesn't. But non-power armor factions all have some cheap bodies, even (relatively) elder. And SM/imperium have a HUGE advantage in you can take those same "OP" units as a battleforged list for basically no penalty (1 hq 2 troops) and keep your fancy chapter tactics. But just as Crispy noted, comparing apples to apples, not apples to raisins. If we compare 8th ed riptides to primaris, primaris looks good

Once you start swapping out marines for guardsmen, there's no reason to stop. That's the problem. Guardsmen are a crutch for Imperial soup lists; a crutch that needs changed.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 chrispy1991 wrote:
I played all through 7th, and 5ppm IG infantry were utterly useless garbage.

Here is where your argument falls down. You are scared of 5ppm Infantry because you didn't have a good time in 7th. This isn't 7th. They are way, WAAAYYY better now. They are worth at least 5 ppm.

They wern't bad in 7th ether. Azreal in a 50 man infantry blob was quite hilarious.

Guardsmen were better at sucking up scatterlasers than marines, too. Still are.

Martel732 wrote:
Guardsmen were better at sucking up scatterlasers than marines, too. Still are.

Worse than gretchin, so gretchin more op than guardsmen?

No, that was just a fun fact.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

phillv85 wrote:
No, the point still stands exactly as I said. My point was that you needed numbers to make them viable. 10 guardsmen aren't doing anything with all the buffs in the game.

Hot damn. That is some useful information. A low point cost, low statline model needs large numbers to make them viable?! Holy cow man do you have any more incredible tips? I think all of my points still stand also. Ork Boyz aren't anywhere near OP in the same way IG Infantry are.

How very childish.