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Martel732 wrote:
That's 160 pts of guardians to kill 40 pts of spastic losers. You won't be able to project past the first squad with 12" guns.

You can't get out of LoS vs IG.

It's still more efficient than pretty much anyone else. And, you could drop your guardians in a congaline and hit multiple squads that were lined up at the outer most layer.

Maybe. Sometimes IG players add a cheap tank to the outer line to prevent such shenanigans, though. When everything is so cheap, you can basically do whatever you want.

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. Sometimes IG players add a cheap tank to the outer line to prevent such shenanigans, though. When everything is so cheap, you can basically do whatever you want.

Yeah I get it.

The best answer to Guard is to try and shoot past their chaff.

CSM do well leveraging berzerkers though.

Berzerkers are THE melee unit in 8th. Thematically appropriate, but leaves all other melee-wannabes in the cold.

 Marmatag wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Maybe. Sometimes IG players add a cheap tank to the outer line to prevent such shenanigans, though. When everything is so cheap, you can basically do whatever you want.

Yeah I get it.

The best answer to Guard is to try and shoot past their chaff.

CSM do well leveraging berzerkers though.

Hmm....funny link.

One of the tyranid / cultists list has one detachement of nids, 1 5 man understreangh unit of GSC and then the rest astra militarum. So several of the lists have more IG then the 20 at the top should indicate. Some of the imperial lists probably have IG in them.

Martel732 wrote:
That's 160 pts of guardians to kill 40 pts of spastic losers. You won't be able to project past the first squad with 12" guns.

You can't get out of LoS vs IG.

wait.. you're complaining about a 10 man squad of conscripts?!? bs5+ ld 5 conscripts? commisar actually causes more losses to morale conscripts? regular squads are 50 pts nude. for bs3 ld7. but 10 bodies of any basic infantry aren't that hard to remove and get around..

No, regular guardsmen. They are 4ppm, not 5.

600 points of Ork boyz vs 600 points of guardsmen in a vacuum. Who wins? Here's a hint. In their first volley that guardsmen will kill on average 1/5th of the Orkz and be beyond Ork range. Turn 2 they walk backwards a bit and shoot again. Turn 3 they repeat and on turn 4 they double tap and then overwatch the survivors for an easy win.


That is why they are too cheap.

SemperMortis wrote:
600 points of Ork boyz vs 600 points of guardsmen in a vacuum. Who wins? Here's a hint. In their first volley that guardsmen will kill on average 1/5th of the Orkz and be beyond Ork range. Turn 2 they walk backwards a bit and shoot again. Turn 3 they repeat and on turn 4 they double tap and then overwatch the survivors for an easy win.


That is why they are too cheap.

I think that is a little disingenious. Forcing your opponent to kite back in his own deployment zone is already half a victory, because you get board control and a lead in victory points. I actually think Orks can deal with Guardsmen better than many other factions simply because we have access to cheap wounds and lots and lots of low-strength attacks. Tyranids can also do some damage with their insane Termagant+stratagem alphastrike. But many other factions just has nothing that can deal with Guardsmen efficiently. They are four points per wound, a decent armour save, they can fall back and shoot, they can fire four shots per model out to 12" (18" for Armageddon). They are just bananas.

And yes, big blobs of fearless cultists (with Abbadon or, what is it, Iron Warriors?) are a tough nut to crack too. Even though they only have a 6+ save and don't get that sweet FRFSRF order.

Martel732 wrote:
That's 160 pts of guardians to kill 40 pts of spastic losers. You won't be able to project past the first squad with 12" guns.

You can't get out of LoS vs IG.

Why are we assuming IG infantry always have a table value of 40pts? In most cases, especially outside the most insanely min/max'd if lists where they all just get a mortar and thats it, most IG infantry squads are gonna cost 50-70pts, most 55 or 60. At that point, 160pt Guardian unit costing 2.5-3x what that IG squad costs is not an inappropriate level of force to bring to bear, thats about what you should be bringing to bear with most units in the game. If I want to kill a Predator with Manticores, i need to average 4 turns worth of fire to do it, or about 3x the cost of the Predator in Manticores if I want to do it all in one turn.

Likewise, why are we assuming that IG can always hit anything, anywhere, and with enough firepower to obliterate it? Most IG weapons do not ignore LoS, including most of the big ones. Even among those that can, theyre not annihilating everything at the drop of a hat. A Manticore is averaging 2 dead marines a turn, or 3 wounds to a tank/weeny infantry. Without running a company of them, they're not just obliterating everything on the board.

Also, those -1 to hit traits *really* do hurt.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
T3 doesn't matter when you have a 2+ save, or you're hiding behind LOS, with the ability to move into view, shoot, and then move back out of LOS. Also, you have Tempest Launchers, which are really good.

Reapers are so good. So incredibly good.

Do you think people bring 30 reapers to the table because they aren't balls out awesomesauce? Oh look a swiss army knife unit that is very protectable and has amazing synergy with everything in my codex. I should bring none of this.

I lol'd.

Surely reapers aren't fun for Eldar players either? I know what it's like to have an auto include unit and it sucks. It limits list design and kills any possible interesting choices.

This is why Guard are so bizarre, it's not just infantry or leman russes or scions that are broken by themselves. Arguably they (and more) are very strong relative to other codexes' units. If a new player picks up Guard they can throw a relatively competitive list without thinking about it. This is unique. No other faction has such good internal balance and external strength.

Hrm, the army isn't *that* well balanced. Outside of some of the Russ variants, the codex artillery, and some of the infantry, theres a lot of mediocre and outright bad units. Deathstrikes, Chimeras, Vanquishers (the specialized AT tank that is bad at hunting tanks), Bane Wolfs, Eradicators, etc. Add in FW and the vast bulk of that is not terribly competitive. Not that the IG codex doesnt have some good units, but you cant take just anything and slap it together to make a usable army.

SemperMortis wrote:
600 points of Ork boyz vs 600 points of guardsmen in a vacuum. Who wins? Here's a hint. In their first volley that guardsmen will kill on average 1/5th of the Orkz and be beyond Ork range. Turn 2 they walk backwards a bit and shoot again. Turn 3 they repeat and on turn 4 they double tap and then overwatch the survivors for an easy win.


That is why they are too cheap.

table space to withdraw is not infinite, the table edge, terrain and other units matter. Likewise, give those Boyz shootas and the Orks are trading casualties at a point for point even ratio with the Guardsmen, albeit with a shorter max range but with dramatically superior CC capability to boot.

"Why are we assuming IG infantry always have a table value of 40pts? "

Because that's how my foes use them. They don't pretend they are anything other than expendable chaff. Giving them equipment paradoxically makes them less powerful. It's not min-maxing to accept them for what they are.

"Likewise, why are we assuming that IG can always hit anything, anywhere, and with enough firepower to obliterate it?"

Because they do? At least in my games against them.

"Also, those -1 to hit traits *really* do hurt. "

Not really. You just throw more dice and kill your opponent. -1 to hit just delays the inevitable. Once Eldar lose their dark reaper cheese, they'll be back to being victims. Because they can't kill fast enough.

I understand that many IG players can't accept that they are the Eldar of 8th ed. They have the most busted units, and field the armies with the least amount of available counterplay. Just own it and quit trying to deny it. Put 120-150 guardsmen down and every assault list in the game save alpha legion autoloses. No counterplay. There is no way to shift that many models. They need to cost more. Marines/admech/eldar can't outshoot IG, even though they are forced to do exactly that.

I voted for (in no particular order):
Roboute Guilliman: Even with the price bump, he gives insane buffs to his Ultramarine buddies and is disgusting in close combat.
Magnus the Red: He moves fast, he has a pretty solid invulnerable save, and he can cast a 2d6 mortal wound Smite. He's undercosted for sure.
Mortarion: Of the ones I voted for, this is the only one I've actually fielded myself. Morty has so many special rules and abilities that make him extremely powerful. He's even better when he's surrounded by his Death Guard brothers.
Saint Celestine: She can move insanely quick thanks to her Act of Faith, getting into your face turn 1 easily, and she hits like a truck. And usually you have to kill her twice. Very powerful.
Biovores: These murder machines hand out mortal wounds like candy, and when they miss they make a minefield that you have to waste precious shots to destroy or else take even MORE mortal wounds. I suspect they are criminally undercosted, but I honestly don't know how many points they cost as I don't have the Tyranids book.

Individually Dark Reapers are far beyond anything else power-level wise. Along with stratagems far superior to what other codexes have (like auspex without range limit) and hardest in the game transports - they are the staple of Eldar power.
And Eldar players who field more than 10 reapers should burn in warp.

But considering the synergy with other units, Stormravens, Guilliman, Berzerkerz and Poxwalkers are also pretty powerful.

Stormravens are unparalleled in leveling hordes of screening units... along with anything else. But I think GK Stormravens are the most powerful, because Draigo can jump along them, providing aura for many turns.

Berzerkerz in vacuum are very situational, but hydradominatus there are certain stratagems which make them shine even without Mr. Kharn Rapetrain.

Poxwalkers are excellent power multiplier for screening units. If you go first or put them out of threat range you essentially make your screen impregnable. I usually carry 80 Poxwalkers with me, but recent games forced me to expand my collection to 120 Poxwalkers to absorb all the Brimstones and Cultists my enemy can kill, along with enemy's infantry lucky enough to get in close combat with my zombies.

Guilliman... well, nothing to add here. Undercosted monstrosity with superior protection and synergy, counterchange potential. The only thing which made other SM stand-and-shoot armies viable is his lack of protection for his troops (like index Azrael).
I think he will receive new influx of popularity with new Custodes aura of 5++ for every Imperium unit within 9".

Depends on what surrounds them

Dark reapers are good without support, and Eldar support only helps them so much, while, say, obliterators can be buffed half a dozen different ways to create both a ferociously deadly, and extraordinarily hard to shift unit.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

This is why Guard are so bizarre, it's not just infantry or leman russes or scions that are broken by themselves. Arguably they (and more) are very strong relative to other codexes' units. If a new player picks up Guard they can throw a relatively competitive list without thinking about it. This is unique. No other faction has such good internal balance and external strength.

Hrm, the army isn't *that* well balanced. Outside of some of the Russ variants, the codex artillery, and some of the infantry, theres a lot of mediocre and outright bad units. Deathstrikes, Chimeras, Vanquishers (the specialized AT tank that is bad at hunting tanks), Bane Wolfs, Eradicators, etc. Add in FW and the vast bulk of that is not terribly competitive. Not that the IG codex doesnt have some good units, but you cant take just anything and slap it together to make a usable army.

I agree with this. Imperial Guard does not have great internal balance, unfortunately. Not like, say, Tyranids. No one is usinge mechanized Guard infantry these day. Melta-vets in chimeras used to be a go-to strat for many of my Guard opponents, but not anymore. In fact, I think the Elite and Fast Attack slots in Guard are pretty bland. And while Guard has the best bubble wrap in the game, Guard does not have great first turn, deep-strike denial like scouts or rangers. I see many Guard players using their mandatory scout sentinels for that purpose, which is hardly ideal.
The good thing is that the Regiment doctrines has good internal balance. I think I have seen at least Cadian, Catachan, Armageddon, Valhallan and Tallarn amongst my opponents. In some other factions Alaitoc, Alpha Legion and Raven Guard are totally dominant because the -1 to hit is simply a lot better than any of the alternatives. And incidentally, I think that Guard (and Tau) are suffering more because of these stacked hit modifiers than most other factions.

But Guardsmen are still a top five unit, and hands down the best troop choice in the game.

I wanted to vote for Wulfen but they aren't on the list .
Haven't faced any of the units mentioned here, used Bloat Drones and Obliterators myself. Drones are pretty nasty, only because they are very annoying: can't be killed, can't be tarpitted. Their damage output is mediocre, though.

pismakron wrote:
Guard does not have great first turn, deep-strike denial like scouts or rangers. I see many Guard players using their mandatory scout sentinels for that purpose, which is hardly ideal.

That's exactly what Scout Sentinels are for though isn't it? They aren't the worst chassis to be fulfilling such a role either, they are pretty decent little gun platforms truth be told.

They have probably the worst cost to occupied area ratio in the game. They are not a bad unit per se, but using them as anti deep strike is the same as using tac marines for chaff. They can do it, but it doesn't mean that they are good at it.

Spoletta wrote:
They have probably the worst cost to occupied area ratio in the game. They are not a bad unit per se, but using them as anti deep strike is the same as using tac marines for chaff. They can do it, but it doesn't mean that they are good at it.

They push out before the first turn, which is an advantage they have over guardsmen.

stratigo wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They have probably the worst cost to occupied area ratio in the game. They are not a bad unit per se, but using them as anti deep strike is the same as using tac marines for chaff. They can do it, but it doesn't mean that they are good at it.

They push out before the first turn, which is an advantage they have over guardsmen.

But marine scouts do that covering more area for same price. Think that's his point.

Though it's still fairly cheap so good brigade fillers while pushing deep strikers away.

stratigo wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They have probably the worst cost to occupied area ratio in the game. They are not a bad unit per se, but using them as anti deep strike is the same as using tac marines for chaff. They can do it, but it doesn't mean that they are good at it.

They push out before the first turn, which is an advantage they have over guardsmen.

Sure, but they push out after deployment where scouts and rangers infiltrate. That means the kroot and sentinels can be screened away by the infiltrating units. But sentinels are clearly better than nothing.

Apart from that, scouts and rangers can deploy on the upper floor of ruins or on top of buildings. Or they can deploy forwards but out of LOS. That can be a real nuisance for opponents.

pismakron wrote:

stratigo wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
They have probably the worst cost to occupied area ratio in the game. They are not a bad unit per se, but using them as anti deep strike is the same as using tac marines for chaff. They can do it, but it doesn't mean that they are good at it.

They push out before the first turn, which is an advantage they have over guardsmen.

Sure, but they push out after deployment where scouts and rangers infiltrate. That means the kroot and sentinels can be screened away by the infiltrating units. But sentinels are clearly better than nothing.

Apart from that, scouts and rangers can deploy on the upper floor of ruins or on top of buildings. Or they can deploy forwards but out of LOS. That can be a real nuisance for opponents.

Don't IG have Ratling Snipers that can infiltrate?

Scout Sentinels must be considered to have something above those units?

AM can literally make a list that's mathematically impossible to table by turn 5.

Take for example 500 infantry squads in a 2k point list:
500 wounds, 5+ Sv
-750 AP0 shots landed
-600 AP-1 shots landed
-500 AP-2~AP-4 shots landed

Why are AM infantries overpowered? It ignores/nullifies many primary damaging mechanics the game works on:
-multi damage weapons have no increased effect
-AP is largely irrelevant because they're already base 5+ save

Obviously it doesn't factor in morale issue, but there's not a single army in the game that can guarantee 500 AP-2~AP-4 shot hits in any given game.

 skchsan wrote:
AM can literally make a list that's mathematically impossible to table by turn 5.

Take for example 500 infantry squads in a 2k point list:
500 wounds, 5+ Sv
-750 AP0 shots landed
-600 AP-1 shots landed
-500 AP-2~AP-4 shots landed

Why are AM infantries overpowered? It ignores/nullifies many primary damaging mechanics the game works on:
-multi damage weapons have no increased effect
-AP is largely irrelevant because they're already base 5+ save

Obviously it doesn't factor in morale issue, but there's not a single army in the game that can guarantee 500 AP-2~AP-4 shot hits in any given game.

That is true for a lot of infantries actually, AM is not even the best one at this game.

500 Tgants with Jorm do that and are also immune to morale with bigger squads.


Also, since we are in the realm of pure math, there are lists that can get more than 750 hits in a single round. Yes they are highly unlikely, but so is that list.

 skchsan wrote:
AM can literally make a list that's mathematically impossible to table by turn 5.

Take for example 500 infantry squads in a 2k point list:
500 wounds, 5+ Sv
-750 AP0 shots landed
-600 AP-1 shots landed
-500 AP-2~AP-4 shots landed

Why are AM infantries overpowered? It ignores/nullifies many primary damaging mechanics the game works on:
-multi damage weapons have no increased effect
-AP is largely irrelevant because they're already base 5+ save

Obviously it doesn't factor in morale issue, but there's not a single army in the game that can guarantee 500 AP-2~AP-4 shot hits in any given game.

Not in matched play at least. Max would be 36 infantry squads, but then you also need 9 Elites, 9 Fast Attack, 9 Heavy Support, and 9 HQ

Spoletta wrote:
That is true for a lot of infantries actually, AM is not even the best one at this game.

500 Tgants with Jorm do that and are also immune to morale with bigger squads.

Also, since we are in the realm of pure math, there are lists that can get more than 750 hits in a single round. Yes they are highly unlikely, but so is that list.

I agree that others armies can do this as well. But in that particular example, termagaunts have +6 Sv, which would only require 500 AP-1 hits, and there are plethora of cheap AP-1 basic weaponries, far more than AP-2 and above.

As far as the theoretical 750 hits in a single round go, let's take for example how many of each weapon is required to land 750 hits & wounds in 1 turn, assuming all are S4:
Hurricane bolters @ half range, +2 BS: 750/(24*(5/6)*(4/6))=56.25 hurricane bolters required (56.25 hurricane bolters w/o platform @ 10 PPW = 562.5 pts)
Reg bolters @ half range, +2 BS: 750/(2*(5/6)*(4/6))=675 boltguns required (675 Marines @ 13 PPM = 8775 pts)
Stormbolters @ half range, +2 BS: 750/(4*(5/6)*(4/6))=337.5 boltguns required (337.5 Marines w/ SB @ 13+2 PPM = 5062.5 pts)
Any 2d6 weapon, ALWAYS rolling 12 hits, +2 BS: 750/(12*(5/6)*(4/6))=75 2d6 weapons required

I tend to focus on imperium examples only. Can you explain your 750 using other armies I'm not aware of?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Spoletta wrote:
That is true for a lot of infantries actually,

Yes, this is true for any armies that have chaff models that can be picked up for 5 points or less per model.

 skchsan wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
That is true for a lot of infantries actually, AM is not even the best one at this game.

500 Tgants with Jorm do that and are also immune to morale with bigger squads.

Also, since we are in the realm of pure math, there are lists that can get more than 750 hits in a single round. Yes they are highly unlikely, but so is that list.

I agree that others armies can do this as well. But in that particular example, termagaunts have +6 Sv, which would only require 500 AP-1 hits, and there are plethora of cheap AP-1 basic weaponries, far more than AP-2 and above.

As far as the theoretical 750 hits in a single round go, let's take for example how many of each weapon is required to land 750 hits & wounds in 1 turn, assuming all are S4:
Hurricane bolters @ half range, +2 BS: 750/(24*(5/6)*(4/6))=56.25 hurricane bolters required (56.25 hurricane bolters w/o platform @ 10 PPW = 562.5 pts)
Reg bolters @ half range, +2 BS: 750/(2*(5/6)*(4/6))=675 boltguns required (675 Marines @ 13 PPM = 8775 pts)
Stormbolters @ half range, +2 BS: 750/(4*(5/6)*(4/6))=337.5 boltguns required (337.5 Marines w/ SB @ 13+2 PPM = 5062.5 pts)
Any 2d6 weapon, ALWAYS rolling 12 hits, +2 BS: 750/(12*(5/6)*(4/6))=75 2d6 weapons required

I tend to focus on imperium examples only. Can you explain your 750 using other armies I'm not aware of?

Aggressors are less than 2 points per S4 shot.
Also, Jorm tgants are 5+.

Spoletta wrote:
Aggressors are less than 2 points per S4 shot.

Eh... I think not...
3x Aggressor w/ boltstorm gauntlets/fragstorm grenade launcher = 111 pts
Max S4 shots provided per model = 12 (6+d6)

So... 111/3 = 37; 37/12 = 3.08 pts per S4 shot.

Just for arguments' sake, say aggressors have +2 BS:

750/(12*(5/6)*(4/6)) = 112.5 Aggressor w/ boltstorm gauntlets/fragstorm grenade launcher needed @ 37 ppm = 4162.5 pts

Staggering.

Spoletta wrote:
Also, Jorm tgants are 5+.

Touche.

Agressors ideally shoot twice.

Spoletta wrote:
Agressors ideally shoot twice.

112.5/2*37=2081.25 pts

Why do they shoot twice?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Instead continueing this nonsense (yes, I think I'm being nonsensical myself), I think we can agree on the fact that amassed single wounds have no inherent weakness and therefore it cannot be countered.

Against high Sv, you bring high AP.
Against high T, you bring high S.
Against high W, you bring high D.

The game generally works with the above three guidelines.

What do you bring against low T, low Sv, low W, whose accumulated total wound count reaches a staggering level?