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the_scotsman wrote:
Right right birdmen on flying saucers very nice. I'll put them on the stack of anti infantry options that tzeentch gets with flamers horrors rubrics scarabs Screamers etc etc etc.

Xhikaru, everyone's favorite chaos associated leak person, can you tell us about the new codex and how it works with the psychic goodness?

Specifically:

-who gets to use what powers? We know we have 18, but are the tzeentch powers limited to only daemon princes?

-are the tzeentch powers exactly the same as in the daemon codex (i.e. if we take Flickering Flame it only can give +1 wound to Daemons) or can they be used to benefit thousand sons?

-what are the Thousand Sons powers we have not yet seen?

I'm super excited for my Thousand Sons to be back doing what made me fall in love with them in 7th: versatile, tactical mastery of psychic might!

Thousand Sons have the exact same Lore as the one in the CD book and applies only to Daemons.

TS get 3 Lores, Tzeentch Daemon (CD book), Dark Hereticus & their own.

I forsee TS & Tzeentch Codex Daemons pretty much playing like Tzeentch Daemonkin.

Interesting. I suppose flickering flames rubrics were too much to hope for lol. Good for me though as I run both daemons and sons in my list!

xxhikaru123 wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Right right birdmen on flying saucers very nice. I'll put them on the stack of anti infantry options that tzeentch gets with flamers horrors rubrics scarabs Screamers etc etc etc.

Xhikaru, everyone's favorite chaos associated leak person, can you tell us about the new codex and how it works with the psychic goodness?

Specifically:

-who gets to use what powers? We know we have 18, but are the tzeentch powers limited to only daemon princes?

-are the tzeentch powers exactly the same as in the daemon codex (i.e. if we take Flickering Flame it only can give +1 wound to Daemons) or can they be used to benefit thousand sons?

-what are the Thousand Sons powers we have not yet seen?

I'm super excited for my Thousand Sons to be back doing what made me fall in love with them in 7th: versatile, tactical mastery of psychic might!

Thousand Sons have the exact same Lore as the one in the CD book and applies only to Daemons.

TS get 3 Lores, Tzeentch Daemon (CD book), Dark Hereticus & their own.

I forsee TS & Tzeentch Codex Daemons pretty much playing like Tzeentch Daemonkin.

Any news on point changes for Rubrics/ SOT?

Also, Does the Shaman only affect Tzaangor units?

the_scotsman wrote:
Interesting. I suppose flickering flames rubrics were too much to hope for lol. Good for me though as I run both daemons and sons in my list!

At least VotLW stratagem is confirmed!

 Galas wrote:

xxhikaru123 wrote:
Skyfires are 2W. 2 S5 -1 1 dmg guns.
BS/WS3 5++
Shaman gives them +1 to hit.
51 points with greatbow

Magnus went up by 30 points.

Good, good, keep the Primarch's nerfs coming, Guilliman and Mortarion next.

Any other special rule for Skyfires? Or other weapons options? They seem a bit pricey for now.

Gulliman already got a points increase if you'll recall

The big question is if Magnus lost the re-roll 1s for invuls Aura, what does he get (along with Ahriman and Exalted Sorcerers?)

BrianDavion wrote:

 Galas wrote:

xxhikaru123 wrote:
Skyfires are 2W. 2 S5 -1 1 dmg guns.
BS/WS3 5++
Shaman gives them +1 to hit.
51 points with greatbow

Magnus went up by 30 points.

Good, good, keep the Primarch's nerfs coming, Guilliman and Mortarion next.

Any other special rule for Skyfires? Or other weapons options? They seem a bit pricey for now.

Gulliman already got a points increase if you'll recall

I know, and it did nothing to be honest. Guilliman needs a TON of nerfs, because as long as he is OP as it is now, you can't really buff the SM codex to where it should be without the inclusion of Guilliman making it the most busted army warhammer has ever seen.

the_scotsman wrote:
Interesting. I suppose flickering flames rubrics were too much to hope for lol. Good for me though as I run both daemons and sons in my list!

You'll likely be able to flickering flame the Skyfires though, as models on Discs and other Daemonic Steeds have always had the Daemon keyword thusfar.

So it's possible to end up with Skyfires that hit on 2+rr, autowound on 5+, with +1 to wound and rr1 wound (from Tzeentch daemon warlord trait)

If they have Heretic Astartes keyword you could even get them to auto wound on 4+ from Prescience

 Galas wrote:
If the enemy is deleting your Primarchs he isn't deleting the rest of your army. Does it matter if those 445 are in the form of a Primarch or in 5-6 tanks? If your enemy go first you are gonna lose a good bunch of your army. 445 points aren't that many points to lose agaisn't a alpha strike army's first turn.

Or you don't lose him, and in the case of Mortarion/Magnus he can run amock with a offensive Power that not many things have in this edition. Or even better. You go first.

(And I know, I know, 445 points buy you 111 wounds of IG infantry, etc, etc... two wrongs don't make one right)

I think the problem is that people throw Magnus in the list and forget to add things that keep the army going when he dies. A crutch if you will.

Hopefully there’ll be some lists that are viable without Magnus! I’d like to actually run some rubrics in my thousand sons army with Ahriman as HQ

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Any news on point changes for Rubrics/ SOT?

Also, Does the Shaman only affect Tzaangor units?

Yes, 6" Bubble all tzaangor unit.
Shaman has a once per game use elixir to reroll 1st failed psychic test for the model.

Thanks again for all the information!!!

Can you share what the mutalith beast does?

in the video of the game it was not clear

I believe it goes gribble gribble gribble?

Are there any changes to exalted sorcerers? Still a single HQ choice? Any changes to wargear or special rules?

Thanks for all the info!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I believe it goes gribble gribble gribble?

No, it moves up a few inches then you remove it from the table. I verified that from the video.

 Galas wrote:
If the enemy is deleting your Primarchs he isn't deleting the rest of your army. Does it matter if those 445 are in the form of a Primarch or in 5-6 tanks? If your enemy go first you are gonna lose a good bunch of your army. 445 points aren't that many points to lose agaisn't a alpha strike army's first turn.

Or you don't lose him, and in the case of Mortarion/Magnus he can run amock with a offensive Power that not many things have in this edition. Or even better. You go first.

(And I know, I know, 445 points buy you 111 wounds of IG infantry, etc, etc... two wrongs don't make one right)

Five to six tanks are harder to delete or render ineffective than Magnus, simply because your opponent has to split fire to take out the tanks. Magnus is a single model that the opponent can focus on and destroy (or severely reduce in effectiveness) very easily. The problem is passive defense. Guilliman can be bubble-wrapped. Mortarion can be parked next to some Deathshroud. This all works regardless of whether it's your turn or not. Magnus' passive defenses (rerollable ones and/or the Changeling) have been removed or severely nerfed. He's fine once you can activate him and he can get his defensive spells rolling, but before that happens, he's a huge sitting duck.

I'm disliking everything i see.

Very disappointing.

No changes in points for rubrics or terminators mean that they will continue to be "auxiliary" units. More goats and better rules for them is what i feared, that is, making this "Codex: Tzaangors". I really dislike the idea and it is very disappointing. No rules for better casting the psychic powers mean that GW is still missing the point of the TS completely. Instead of improving and adding more units of actual THOUSAND SONS, we got more goats and mutated beasts, making this a "All-Tzeentch-flavours-circus".

I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.

To the possible answer: "Just don't use Tzaangors!", it seems that GW does want you to use them at all cost. They keep same points and rules for the actual TS units, making them the less effective and more expensive options, and they throw in some more goats, giving them sinergies and weapons and rules to boost them. So if you don't take goats in one or other shape, you are basically doing a purposely bad army list... It is just awful.

And all this is because the stupid policy of "No model - No rules" that GW has implemented now. And just because the TS range is incomplete, they just add some random things from fantasy. Is just lazy and bad designing. The codex TS needed some units, but instead of making proper entries, because they have no new models, they just throw in fantasy goats and a forgotten fantasy random monster and they call it a great idea... Those models simply don't fit with the rest of the army. The very first Tzaangors are shoehorned and are not really representatives of the Thousand Sons legion. With one only unit that would be ok, because they can be some sort of "auxiliary" troops, but now they expand to have more options to Tzaangors than to actual TS infantry. So now it is the opposite, you have Thousand Sons as "auxiliary" troops for the goats core...

So it seems that one will have to wait until 9th edition, perhaps then can do it right...

You're talking more like 3-4 tanks. 4 only if you're talking about something like Basilisks, arguably the most undercosted vehicle in the game at 108.

Firepower in Lascannons (or Bright Lances, or Dark Lances, whatever "range of the board" common anti tank weapon you like) that kills Magnus generally kills 3 other tanks. If we're assuming you didn't place him in a dumb spot where something could deep strike down and double tap him with plasma or something, primarily the damage is going to be done with lascannons or equivalent longrange D6 damage guns.

Vs Magnus, it takes 23 lascannons or Lances to down him on average, or 28 if you took the changeling despite the nerf.

Vs standard T7/T8 3+ tank profile, those same 23 lascannon shots deal 29.8 wounds (2 tanks dead, 1 tank crippled to its third bracket usually) and if they're Lance shots they deal 36 wounds (3 tanks dead).

If you're comparing Magnus' points to the most undercosted vehicle in the game, the basilisk, yeah that's not a great trade (only 324 points of basilisks dead for 445 points of magnus). Comparing to something less optimized like marine predators, or even something fairly optimized like Leman Russ battlecannon+HB tanks, the trade is more even or in magnus' favor.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Warpspy wrote:
I'm disliking everything i see.

Very disappointing.

No changes in points for rubrics or terminators mean that they will continue to be "auxiliary" units. More goats and better rules for them is what i feared, that is, making this "Codex: Tzaangors". I really dislike the idea and it is very disappointing. No rules for better casting the psychic powers mean that GW is still missing the point of the TS completely. Instead of improving and adding more units of actual THOUSAND SONS, we got more goats and mutated beasts, making this a "All-Tzeentch-flavours-circus".

I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.

To the possible answer: "Just don't use Tzaangors!", it seems that GW does want you to use them at all cost. They keep same points and rules for the actual TS units, making them the less effective and more expensive options, and they throw in some more goats, giving them sinergies and weapons and rules to boost them. So if you don't take goats in one or other shape, you are basically doing a purposely bad army list... It is just awful.

And all this is because the stupid policy of "No model - No rules" that GW has implemented now. And just because the TS range is incomplete, they just add some random things from fantasy. Is just lazy and bad designing. The codex TS needed some units, but instead of making proper entries, because they have no new models, they just throw in fantasy goats and a forgotten fantasy random monster and they call it a great idea... Those models simply don't fit with the rest of the army. The very first Tzaangors are shoehorned and are not really representatives of the Thousand Sons legion. With one only unit that would be ok, because they can be some sort of "auxiliary" troops, but now they expand to have more options to Tzaangors than to actual TS infantry. So now it is the opposite, you have Thousand Sons as "auxiliary" troops for the goats core...

So it seems that one will have to wait until 9th edition, perhaps then can do it right...

I think you're discounting how big being able to cast real psychic powers instead of pathetic babysmite is for actual units of rubrics. Am I still hoping we see some small points reductions for rubrics? Am I still very much hoping for force swords on SOTs? yeah. but even if it we just get a boatload of stratagems and psychic powers on every guy, I am very pleased.

As for getting weird auxiliary units instead of new core thousand sons legion units...I guess that's just what you like. Personally, I don't want to run 30k in 40k - the lack of pure power armor is why I like tsons in the first place because I find painting 100 identical power armored dudes an unbelievable chore. Just because something is not your cup of tea doesn't mean it's wrong, and it also doesn't mean you can't run primarily Sons pointwise and no tzaangors at all. Sure, you will probably want to bring 20-ish cultists to form an anti deep strike daisy chain for your army to function well in 8th ed, but 80 points in cultists is hardly a travesty.

 Warpspy wrote:
I'm disliking everything i see.

Very disappointing.

No changes in points for rubrics or terminators mean that they will continue to be "auxiliary" units. More goats and better rules for them is what i feared, that is, making this "Codex: Tzaangors". I really dislike the idea and it is very disappointing. No rules for better casting the psychic powers mean that GW is still missing the point of the TS completely. Instead of improving and adding more units of actual THOUSAND SONS, we got more goats and mutated beasts, making this a "All-Tzeentch-flavours-circus".

I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.

To the possible answer: "Just don't use Tzaangors!", it seems that GW does want you to use them at all cost. They keep same points and rules for the actual TS units, making them the less effective and more expensive options, and they throw in some more goats, giving them sinergies and weapons and rules to boost them. So if you don't take goats in one or other shape, you are basically doing a purposely bad army list... It is just awful.

And all this is because the stupid policy of "No model - No rules" that GW has implemented now. And just because the TS range is incomplete, they just add some random things from fantasy. Is just lazy and bad designing. The codex TS needed some units, but instead of making proper entries, because they have no new models, they just throw in fantasy goats and a forgotten fantasy random monster and they call it a great idea... Those models simply don't fit with the rest of the army. The very first Tzaangors are shoehorned and are not really representatives of the Thousand Sons legion. With one only unit that would be ok, because they can be some sort of "auxiliary" troops, but now they expand to have more options to Tzaangors than to actual TS infantry. So now it is the opposite, you have Thousand Sons as "auxiliary" troops for the goats core...

So it seems that one will have to wait until 9th edition, perhaps then can do it right...

It was evident from the twitch report where he only took 5 rubrics and 5 occult termies in 2k!

I personally don’t have an issue with tzaangors but I agree that it is sad that tsons are badly represented in their own army, at the very least they could have made a few alrernate HQs out of the exaulted sorcerer kit!

the_scotsman wrote:
You're talking more like 3-4 tanks. 4 only if you're talking about something like Basilisks, arguably the most undercosted vehicle in the game at 108.

Firepower in Lascannons (or Bright Lances, or Dark Lances, whatever "range of the board" common anti tank weapon you like) that kills Magnus generally kills 3 other tanks. If we're assuming you didn't place him in a dumb spot where something could deep strike down and double tap him with plasma or something, primarily the damage is going to be done with lascannons or equivalent longrange D6 damage guns.

Vs Magnus, it takes 23 lascannons or Lances to down him on average, or 28 if you took the changeling despite the nerf.

Vs standard T7/T8 3+ tank profile, those same 23 lascannon shots deal 29.8 wounds (2 tanks dead, 1 tank crippled to its third bracket usually) and if they're Lance shots they deal 36 wounds (3 tanks dead).

If you're comparing Magnus' points to the most undercosted vehicle in the game, the basilisk, yeah that's not a great trade (only 324 points of basilisks dead for 445 points of magnus). Comparing to something less optimized like marine predators, or even something fairly optimized like Leman Russ battlecannon+HB tanks, the trade is more even or in magnus' favor. .

Yeah, this was my point. If your opponent can kill Magnus in the first round of shooting he would be totally able to kill an equal number of points in nearly all other kind of models barring undercosted infantry. But you'll get much more mileage from Magnus than from 3-4 tanks if you go first instead.

Primarchs need to be nerfed into the balanced (So, no competitive) bracket if we want their respective armies to have space to breath and not be a Primarch+Goddies list. You can't buff SM with how Guilliman is now, the same happens with DG and TS.

 Warpspy wrote:

I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.

Thats the point where you are wrong. Thousand Sons don't exist anymore. Theres no Chaos Legions anymore. Even the Black Legion and Death Guard, the most organised ones, are in general a bunch of chaos warbands with a ton of freedom and loosely organized between themselves.
Chaos Space Marines aren't loyalists. They aren't organized in chapters. The most common chaos force in the galaxy is an amalgamation of all kind of Chaos forces, specially space marines from different origins/legions,etc...
The Thousand Sons Codex is there to represent the present state of the Thousand Sons afilliated sorcerers, a bunch of madmans that only care about their personal powers, that work more like a Imperial Inquisitor gathering a bunch of random troops for their service rather than like an organized military faction.

Why is this even an issue? they aren't badly priced once you factor in full rubric squad sorcerers, access to a large number of spells, stratagem use, and several unknown factors (aura buffs is a big one we still have NO idea on)

Seems like Rubrics and SOT are going to be just fine once we get every piece of the puzzle. With the index I regularly field 30 or so, I think in this book fielding 30 or more (which at that point is FAR beyond auxiliary unit choice) will be quite viable.

I would imagine we will get at least one "shoot again" or "fight again" stratagem since basically every book I am aware of has one of those in some fashion.

I for one BEGIN my list with a battalion, 2 squads of rubrics is my minimum, usually 3. Offset by Tzaangors and some cultists. and considering I usually while losing against codex lists would pull around even with each squad before this point? I think we will be fine overall using Rubrics.

Scarab Occult if staying the same price point but having strategem access as well as spell access would be "okay" but sadly they suffer from the same issue ALL terminators suffer from. Termies in general are an issue still so that isnt just on the SOT.

Ahriman21 wrote:
Why is this even an issue? they aren't badly priced once you factor in full rubric squad sorcerers, access to a large number of spells, stratagem use, and several unknown factors (aura buffs is a big one we still have NO idea on)

Seems like Rubrics and SOT are going to be just fine once we get every piece of the puzzle. With the index I regularly field 30 or so, I think in this book fielding 30 or more (which at that point is FAR beyond auxiliary unit choice) will be quite viable.

I would imagine we will get at least one "shoot again" or "fight again" stratagem since basically every book I am aware of has one of those in some fashion.

I for one BEGIN my list with a battalion, 2 squads of rubrics is my minimum, usually 3. Offset by Tzaangors and some cultists. and considering I usually while losing against codex lists would pull around even with each squad before this point? I think we will be fine overall using Rubrics.

Scarab Occult if staying the same price point but having strategem access as well as spell access would be "okay" but sadly they suffer from the same issue ALL terminators suffer from. Termies in general are an issue still so that isnt just on the SOT.

SOT are particularly obnoxious on the offensive front to me because of the mind-bogglingly dumb decision to give them power swords instead of force swords. the new DG terminators work fairly well because they actually do some damage if they get where they're going. A D3 damage force sword would give them at least some punch. In my last game I had 7 scarab occult pile into a basic chaos lord and deal a grand total of 2 wounds thanks to his invuln save.

Their shooting is fine, especially when you bring a CSM detachment for VOTLW, which means they can pretty reliably dakka apart a tank or something on the turn they come down. Given that, and the ability to have the scarab sorc drop the -1 to hit spell on them or Warptime to get them into combat, they'd be mediocre/overpriced. Give them force swords and I think you'd have yourself a decent, average unit.

Rubrics with a real power and a soulreaper in 5 models will be in just about the right spot. 2 squads in a rhino with 2 soulreapers and 2 psychic powers and I'm a happy man.

Yeah I definitely feel you on the "meh" melee capability. The other issue is that you pay a premium for "all is dust" on Scarab Occults that rarely get used, because very few people willingly fire D1 weapons at terminators anyway so its almost a waste.

Rubrics I feel are in a much better spot and you can make arguments for MSU or larger singular squads with our spell buffing and our stratagem support.

Those 20 man "pop and drop" rubric squads are going to be horrendous. decent damage output, can reliably with just VOTLW ace a T7 or below vehicle, has a caster built-in.

That will be a standard for me I think.... Although Goats are also funny, drop them down and go at it.

Guyver 3 wrote:


It was evident from the twitch report where he only took 5 rubrics and 5 occult termies in 2k!

Oh my god I can't do this anymore.

Guyver 3 wrote:

 Warpspy wrote:
I'm disliking everything i see.

Very disappointing.

No changes in points for rubrics or terminators mean that they will continue to be "auxiliary" units. More goats and better rules for them is what i feared, that is, making this "Codex: Tzaangors". I really dislike the idea and it is very disappointing. No rules for better casting the psychic powers mean that GW is still missing the point of the TS completely. Instead of improving and adding more units of actual THOUSAND SONS, we got more goats and mutated beasts, making this a "All-Tzeentch-flavours-circus".

I would like to have a proper "Codex: Thousand Sons", not a "Codex: Tzeentch-All-flavours" or "Codex: Servants of Tzeentch". I wanted a Thousand Sons LEGION codex. More units, characters and rules to properly represent them on the game. This is not that. Is just a lazy amalgamation of units, making this a poor and lazy "Tzeentch Soup" that i don't like.

To the possible answer: "Just don't use Tzaangors!", it seems that GW does want you to use them at all cost. They keep same points and rules for the actual TS units, making them the less effective and more expensive options, and they throw in some more goats, giving them sinergies and weapons and rules to boost them. So if you don't take goats in one or other shape, you are basically doing a purposely bad army list... It is just awful.

And all this is because the stupid policy of "No model - No rules" that GW has implemented now. And just because the TS range is incomplete, they just add some random things from fantasy. Is just lazy and bad designing. The codex TS needed some units, but instead of making proper entries, because they have no new models, they just throw in fantasy goats and a forgotten fantasy random monster and they call it a great idea... Those models simply don't fit with the rest of the army. The very first Tzaangors are shoehorned and are not really representatives of the Thousand Sons legion. With one only unit that would be ok, because they can be some sort of "auxiliary" troops, but now they expand to have more options to Tzaangors than to actual TS infantry. So now it is the opposite, you have Thousand Sons as "auxiliary" troops for the goats core...

So it seems that one will have to wait until 9th edition, perhaps then can do it right...

It was evident from the twitch report where he only took 5 rubrics and 5 occult termies in 2k!

I personally don’t have an issue with tzaangors but I agree that it is sad that tsons are badly represented in their own army, at the very least they could have made a few alrernate HQs out of the exaulted sorcerer kit!

He also took Magnus, a Demon Prince and Ahriman. All of which are members of the Thousand Sons.
You know the Thousand Sons just doesn't consist of a few sorcerors and rubrics, right? And that marines cost more points than tzaangors, especially Magnus?

I’m wondering if rubrics with flamers will get some usage? At the moment it’s just an odd weapon on a unit that should always be nowhere near cc!

New faqs

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

zamerion wrote:
New faqs

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

Nerfy nerfs! Expected and welcome.

Nothing unexpected. But I wasn't expecting a full Dathasheet in a FAQ.

Guyver 3 wrote:
I’m wondering if rubrics with flamers will get some usage? At the moment it’s just an odd weapon on a unit that should always be nowhere near cc!

Well, the nice thing about the new relic and deep strike stratagem means that 20 man units are no longer nearly as easily counterable than they once were. Rubrics in my experience don't die in cc immediately, they just get tied up in combat for eternity and can't do anything. If you're dropping the unit in, and paying that many points, you're probably committing to warptime on them, which gets the flamers in range, and you bring that relic along and it doesn't matter if they get tied up in combat, any survivors get to yoink themselves up and out of combat and drop back down again for more dakka. Could be a cute little tactic. Get an Exalted sorc on a disk or a daemon prince with the relic, run them up when you drop the 20 man blob down, and fill em full of defensive buffs. Even big cc threats like Genestealers or khorne bezerkers will have trouble taking them down since most of their cc units are single damage but rely on weight of attacks. But give them -1 to hit and a 3++ rerolling 1s with all is dust and an exalt. Give them say 5 warpflamers for extra damage and overwatch threat.

If you get Glamor and Weaver on that squad and they get countercharged by 20 genestealers, 8 die to overwatch, and the remaining 12 kill 3 models.

10 khorne bezerkers (lets say they charge from outside flamer range, because otherwise the squad is just basically dead) lose 2 to overwatch, kill 3 models total attacking with their chainaxes and the champ's powerfist.

Sure, they can be dakka'd to death, if you've got 60 rapid firing BS3+ plasma guns lying around, but that does take a small bit of effort.