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Its either 6 or 7, Las cannons wounded it on 3's AFAIK. "same as hauspex" would I believe mean 7?

I'd imagine the Haruspex is the ballpark stats-wise for the Mutalith but not an exact copy, we already know the Mutalith hits on 3s unlike the Haruspex for example. I'd guess the other stats are all the same except that it's Toughness 7, and I'm also guessing its armour save might be 4+. The thing sounds damned good as it is, especially as it even has the same D3 to-hit rolls per attack weapon that the Haruspex has. More details needed of course.

Haruspex is WS4+ BS4+ S7 T8 W13 A4 LD6 SV3+ for reference and is a good 50ish points more expensive than the Mutalith, though it does have a few nifty rules (including another weapon that rips tanks to shreds) of its own of course.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/01/26/new-units-codex-thousand-sonsgw-homepage-post-2/



Horrors shoots with str. 5 yeahh

EDIT - Beat to the punch.


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Maelstrom of Madness: Pick an enemy unit within 9". Reduce its Leadership characteristic by 1 until the end of the turn. This is cumulative with other uses of this power (to a maximum of -3).

Remember how Treason of Tzeentch can be difficult to pull off because characters tend to have fairly high Leadership? Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah.

Oh my god I love those Mutalith rules.

zamerion wrote:
Horrors shoots with str. 5 yeahh

It looks to me like it stacks. Bring several Mutaliths. Horrors shoot with Strength...how high do you want to go?

Man, this Mutalith is TASTY. I'm very happy to see stuff like this in the army that isn't explicitly tied to the psychic phase; it'll make it easier for us to deal with things that tend to shut down psyker powers, like Sisters of Silence or some 'Nids builds.

These Enlightened wield divining spears, fatecaster greatbows or simply the chainswords and autopistols they fought with in their earlier lives in battle.

Confirmed then that you can give them CS+BP. I don't know how competitive that will be, but more options are nice.

 Galas wrote:

These Enlightened wield divining spears, fatecaster greatbows or simply the chainswords and autopistols they fought with in their earlier lives in battle.

Confirmed then that you can give them CS+BP. I don't know how competitive that will be, but more options are nice.

Well since the auto-wound occurs on any weapon they use you can get them more attacks with the CS, +1 to hit, and give them the AP they lose through the mutalith.

I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?

Huh, so the auto-wound mechanic for Enlightened isn't just for the bows. That's neat.

First impressions of the Mutalith is that it is almost a must-take for Tzeentch Daemons based on what we know of its stats and that chart. The +1 Strength buff bringing Horrors up to Strength 5 means that with Flickering Flames they then wound Toughness 4 on 2+....which is absurd. If I'm not mistaken the Mutalith aura range was pretty big too so even hitting deep striking Pink Horrors shouldn't be too hard.

I'm not sure if Mutalith spam would necessarily be a thing given the cost (though they do sound extremely good for their points), but man, you can get Horrors up to over Strength 10 if you really wanted :lol Wow, I keep reading the auras and they are amazing. Doing guaranteed mortal wounds in a 9" radius is funny as hell. Beam of Unreality is literally a free Infernal Gaze that chooses the closest unit.

Also hot damn, that re-roll charge one giving you always strikes first to an already engaged unit is tasty. The buffs are definitely melee oriented (barring Horrors) either of those buffs on Tzaangors would be amazing.

Caederes wrote:
Also hot damn, that re-roll charge one giving you always strikes first to an already engaged unit is tasty. The buffs are definitely melee oriented (barring Horrors) either of those buffs on Tzaangors would be amazing.

It's a fantastic counter to units like Daemonettes or Banshees that normally always strike first in close combat.

Brian888 wrote:
I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?

I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.

 Mantle wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?

I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.

So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Add in the Shaman, some Prescience to taste, and Ephemeral Touch? Time to go tank-hunting, lads!

Totally gonna have a Mutalith tagging along behind Horrors. Bye-bye, Spess Mahreeenz!

Brian888 wrote:

 Mantle wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?

I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.

So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Time to go tank-hunting, lads!

On a hit roll of a 6 yeah it's nice, depends how many attacks each enlightened gets though, you might only get a couple of 6s from a squad of 3, I can see these being taken in large squads, deepstriking and rerolling charges from a near by mutalith.

 Mantle wrote:

Brian888 wrote:

 Mantle wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?

I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.

So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Time to go tank-hunting, lads!

On a hit roll of a 6 yeah it's nice, depends how many attacks each enlightened gets though, you might only get a couple of 6s from a squad of 3, I can see these being taken in large squads, deepstriking and rerolling charges from a near by mutalith.

With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.

Brian888 wrote:

 Mantle wrote:

Brian888 wrote:

 Mantle wrote:

Brian888 wrote:
I have a question about the Tzaangor Enlightened's ability to do an auto-wound on a to-hit roll of 6+. Is this auto-wound in addition to the normal weapon the damage does? For example, an Enlightened with the divining spear charges and rolls a 6 to hit. That does an auto-wound. Does the Enlightened also get to roll to wound normally, to try for the extra 2 damage (because of the charge), resulting in a potential damage output of 3 on the charge?

I think it's auto wound as in you bypass the wound roll and go straight to saving throws.

So, on the charge with the divining spear, you just go straight to the save, and if the target fails, it takes two wounds? Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Time to go tank-hunting, lads!

On a hit roll of a 6 yeah it's nice, depends how many attacks each enlightened gets though, you might only get a couple of 6s from a squad of 3, I can see these being taken in large squads, deepstriking and rerolling charges from a near by mutalith.

With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.

The Index lists them as HERETIC ASTARTES, so I'd say Prescience is a go.

Sweet. Let's get shredding!

Brian888 wrote:


With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.

Only 3 wounds from 3.6 of these guys against T7 though. It would be hard to get them and all their support close enough. They'll absolutely shed anything in the way though.

6 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3
6 * .333 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 0.66

If you can get there yea they’ll shred but o don’t know how they survive the enemy even looking at them

demontalons wrote:
If you can get there yea they’ll shred but o don’t know how they survive the enemy even looking at them

Thousand Sons teleportation hijinks.


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Daedalus81 wrote:

Brian888 wrote:


With a Shaman nearby, it activates on a 5+. If Prescience can be cast on these guys? 4+.

Only 3 wounds from 3.6 of these guys against T7 though. It would be hard to get them and all their support close enough. They'll absolutely shed anything in the way though.

6 * .5 * .5 * 2 = 3
6 * .333 * .333 * .5 * 2 = 0.66

Do we know how many attacks each Enlightened has?

Daedalus81 wrote:
There is no way the Mutalith is T8.

Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.

Brian888 wrote:


Thousand Sons teleportation hijinks.

Bubblewrap first though. It's doable, but it takes a LOT of coordination.

Do we know how many attacks each Enlightened has?

Well it's possibly they get 3, but I doubt it.

Voss wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
There is no way the Mutalith is T8.

Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.

It's not necessarily random. You can pick once off the chart a round, or let it be random and get two rolls.

Voss wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
There is no way the Mutalith is T8.

Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.

T8 is actually quite key and it greatly reduces many anti-tank weapons.

And it isn't lolrandom. You get to pick one or roll 2D6.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Brian888 wrote:


Thousand Sons teleportation hijinks.

Bubblewrap first though. It's doable, but it takes a LOT of coordination.

Do we know how many attacks each Enlightened has?

Well it's possibly they get 3, but I doubt it.

Bubblewrap is why Tzeentch invented Horrors.

The mutalith seems fun.

Definitely a glass hammer unit, which is why you either run them with the bows or you Warptime the spear versions up. Alternatively, make sure you play on tables with actual line-of-sight-blocking terrain, though the models themselves are big so hiding them isn't too easy, speaking from experience!

Even if you can't get the Shaman in range, you can give them a few buffs before they fly up; namely Prescience and the AP buff from the Mutalith. Add Veterans of the Long War and ideally have one or both of a Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted (re-roll 1s) in support to get them to their full potential.

Average rolls ahoy! 9 with the bonus AP from the Mutalith aura and all the buffs (Prescience, Shaman, re-roll 1s to-hit, Veterans of the Long War) gets 19 (+1 for Sergeant included) attacks with the spears that hit on 2s with re-rolls, so ~18-19 hits. Half of those should be auto-wounds, so that's 9-10. The other 9 regular hits will need 4s to wound any target below T10 thanks to VotLW, so that will net you another ~4-5 wounds. That's anywhere from 13 to 15 wounds at AP-2 on average rolls with all the buffs against a model below T10 that lacks any kind of to-hit or to-wound/Strength malus. Against a 3+ save model, thanks to that Mutalith AP buff you're looking at ~9-10 failed saves for 20 Damage. Against a 2+ save model, it's closer to ~6-8 failed saves for 12 to 16 Damage, enough to potentially obliterate a Land Raider. Again, these are rough averages.

I'm not the best at maths so I'm probably a bit off...but that's really nice for a unit that's quite cheap (17 per with the greatbow so possibly even cheaper with the spear) You can fire and forget them, let them tear up a unit, then start stacking the buffs on something else. Even without the Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted nearby (so auto-wounding only on 5s, still hitting on 2s but no re-rolls of 1s to hit) their damage is still really strong (about 16 hits total, about 6 auto-wounds, 5 regular wounds for 11 total wounds leading to 7-8 unsaved on 3+ save models, still 14+ unsaved Damage).

Not bad at all.

 nintura wrote:
The mutalith seems fun.

It's a nice model as well.


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Caederes wrote:
Definitely a glass hammer unit, which is why you either run them with the bows or you Warptime the spear versions up. Alternatively, make sure you play on tables with actual line-of-sight-blocking terrain, though the models themselves are big so hiding them isn't too easy, speaking from experience!

Even if you can't get the Shaman in range, you can give them a few buffs before they fly up; namely Prescience and the AP buff from the Mutalith. Add Veterans of the Long War and ideally have one or both of a Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted (re-roll 1s) in support to get them to their full potential.

Average rolls ahoy! 9 with the bonus AP from the Mutalith aura and all the buffs (Prescience, Shaman, re-roll 1s to-hit, Veterans of the Long War) gets 19 (+1 for Sergeant included) attacks with the spears that hit on 2s with re-rolls, so ~18-19 hits. Half of those should be auto-wounds, so that's 9-10. The other 9 regular hits will need 4s to wound any target below T10 thanks to VotLW, so that will net you another ~4-5 wounds. That's anywhere from 13 to 15 wounds at AP-2 on average rolls with all the buffs against a model below T10 that lacks any kind of to-hit or to-wound/Strength malus. Against a 3+ save model, thanks to that Mutalith AP buff you're looking at ~9-10 failed saves for 20 Damage. Against a 2+ save model, it's closer to ~6-8 failed saves for 12 to 16 Damage, enough to potentially obliterate a Land Raider. Again, these are rough averages.

I'm not the best at maths so I'm probably a bit off...but that's really nice for a unit that's quite cheap (17 per with the greatbow so possibly even cheaper with the spear) You can fire and forget them, let them tear up a unit, then start stacking the buffs on something else. Even without the Shaman and a Daemon Prince/Exalted nearby (so auto-wounding only on 5s, still hitting on 2s but no re-rolls of 1s to hit) their damage is still really strong (about 16 hits total, about 6 auto-wounds, 5 regular wounds for 11 total wounds leading to 7-8 unsaved on 3+ save models, still 14+ unsaved Damage).

Not bad at all.

I'm beginning to think this is the answer to the turn 1 Magnus question: The Sons can field multiple units that have the potential to eat you alive (especially in tandem), so do you go after the Mutaliths turn 1? Magnus? The Enlightened? That Maulerfiend that's all set to tear up the board?

Voss wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:
There is no way the Mutalith is T8.

Why is that? There isn't anything particularly special about T8 in this edition, and if the lolrandom chart is its central power, it certainly needs something to keep it on the board.

As others have stated, it's either pick one ability or randomly determine two abilities.

To your other point, Strength 8 is the sweet spot for anti-tank weapons as the most common Toughness value of vehicles and monsters is 7. Overcharged plasma and other similar weapons are the go-to anti-tank for a lot of armies. Toughness 8 stops anything short of lascannons and above (which are common for Imperium but not necessarily other armies) from wounding the vehicle on 3s which helps out way more than one would think. Additionally, Strength 4 is the second most common small arms fire Strength value in the game behind Strength 3 (or the most depending on your perspective) and Toughness 8 renders it nearly useless.


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Thousand Sons in conjunction with Tzeentch Daemons can put out a thematic army that packs a whallop of a punch, it seems obvious to me the two armies were designed to work together. Horrors clear light to medium chaff, Rubrics or Flamers clear medium to heavy chaff - Deep Strike either or both and clear the way. Next, make liberal use of Warptime and your many, many psychic, Mutalith and stratagem-based buffs to torpedo deadly close ranged units into the enemy; Lasher Maulerfiends, Spear Enlightened, Screamers, etc. Horrors and Rubrics are very tough units, and whatever you Warptime forward can be buffed with Weaver of Fates for some extra protection. Unlike, say, a Khorne army, Tzeentch has the durability in its favour at the cost of some of the hitting power, though based on what we've seen Tzeentch can still hit extremely hard. Tzaangor blobs with the AP buff from the Mutalith and the other usual buffs are essentially tougher Bloodletters, down to the fight twice stratagem that Tzaangors get at 2CP compared to every other factions' 3CP fight twice stratagem. Scarab Occult get some good mileage out of the Mutalith as well, notably, and provide similar firepower and (against Damage 1) durability to Rubrics for similar points paired with far superior melee stats. Strength 5 power swords with VotLW will make mince meat of most things, and Prescience is amazing on the Scarabs given their good shooting and melee stats overall. Tzeentch armies also get ridiculously cheap Battalion detachments thanks to Brimstone Horrors, models that are also perfect for bubble-wrap purposes, while adding a few extra Daemon spells to your army. After that, the rest of a Tzeentch army will start blasting you with an onslaught of offensive psychic powers, and the Mutaliths are no slouches in combat and, based on what we know of their melee stats, will chew through infantry and other light targets really quickly.

In theory. The synergy across the army as it stands is great, now all we need are some more psychic buffs for our Thousand Sons from relics, stratagems and Warlord Traits and we are all set