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Going to explain a second first. I have played Chaos Space Marines for a fair amount of time and I have a lot of them along with suitable options. The 3.5 days of Chaos were a bit before my time (I was a Fantasy player then) but I have heard about those days.

So anyways, WHERE ARE THE ACTUAL CHAOS MARINES?

The whole thing has boiled down to using Forgeworld and/or a million cultists. Chaos Marines serve no purpose anymore.

From what I can tell, Plague Marines have run into the same problem with Poxwalkers and Thousand Sons have the same issue with Tzaangors.

What is the point of naming these books after the least useful part of the army?

This is a bit of a frustration rant, but feel free to drop an opinion. Maybe I am missing some way to play them that doesn't involve spamming 20 or 40 man units of garbage.

Thanks for reading,
Rant over.

I feel your frustration, what if Space Marines had access to serfs fighting with them on the battlefield to do the cannon fodder duty ? Of course they can use Guards but that's not the point. Thing is, GW seems to realise regular MEQ are too frail and overcosted, but address the issue by giving them access to cheap bodies instead of fixing up their point cost. So of course people who want to actually win with their army (playing fluffy armies is fun an all, but getting destroyed every game gets boring) know that they need the cannon fodder in their armies, and so end up using them as the bulk of their forces.

In 8th edition you need both models that can deal damage and cheap wounds that can push away deep strikes, absorb charges, smite and rapid-fire. That is why you see people bubble-wrapping their armies with screens of light infantry. A pure elite infantry army does not work well in this edition. Pure space marine armies are struggling, and can only really be semi-competetive because of infiltrating scouts performing some of the duties of chaff bubble wrap.

My Plague Marines always seem to do really well (I only have the zombies from the big box). Anecdotal and all but if it weren't for the internet telling me they were awful I'd never know.

Btw, I believe that 40 man blobs of cultists only works with abbadon or an Iron warrior warlord. I could be wrong about that, though.

Plague Marines, Havocs, Chosen, Noise Marines, Berserkers, Thousand Sons, Raptors, Bikes are all viable units. Even possessed are okay in 8th now.
Yes, the actual "Chaos Space Marine"- unit has not much to offer outside of Black Legion because it's either overshadowed by the Cult-units or Cultists fill a detachment for even less points. But that's been the case since... forever probably. Traitor Legions made the CSM-unit basically a Cult-unit so it was useful, but that was an outlier. Just like tactical marines for SM an unspecialized unit doing everything and nothing has no place in 40K right now.

See, thing is, if you can buy one or two boxes of Marines and field a decent army, you're only going to buy one or two boxes of Marines. Less if you're already playing and have those models available. But...if you're now convinced that every army needs a screen of squishies and are bubble-wrapping anything that costs more than 10 points per model in cultists, you're gonna buy a lot more models. GW like that.

I actually like the chaff. Discontents, zombies and beastmen makes perfect sense as an auxiliary for a CSM army.

They need to be an auxiliary tho. Being the best option for most armies doesn't fit with the fluff.

I like Chaff, but I'd like more options then just cultists for my EC army. I tend to use mostly NM for my main options though with a cultist group or two on the side.

I feel the same. I keep getting told with my Death Guard to take more poxwalkers, cultists, Typhus, Necrosius etc. I want freaking evil space marines. The problem is that 40k right now enocurages big blobs of chaff. Marines are not that, so they are automatically on the backfield.

Sometimes it makes sense, in that like Alpha Legion or Word Bearers would realistically have a lot of hordes of cultists and save the Marines as smaller elites directing them. There is something to be said about that, but largely I feel the same way. I have some Poxwalkers in my death guard list (two units of 19), and I don't see the need to have more than that because I don't want to play Walking Dead: 40k Edition.

I need bodies for troops! 3 cultists are about the cost of 1 marine.

I need some bulky melee! Bezerkers cost 3 points more for double to triple the attacks.

I need bolter shots! Chosen are 3 points more base, but can /all/ take combi bolters, giving you double the shots for only 5 more PPM.

I need special/heavy weapons! Havocs are Marines who can take any number of special or heavy weapons.

There is literally nothing you can do with a Chaos Space Marine that something else doesn't do better. It's just a crappy unit, unfortunatly. Tactical Marines from the Space Marines codex have the same issue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

pismakron wrote:
Btw, I believe that 40 man blobs of cultists only works with abbadon or an Iron warrior warlord. I could be wrong about that, though.

Actually, Tzeetch cultists work pretty good too A 40 cultist blob with a Sorcerer bubblewrapped inside it can give them all a 5++ invuln, and +1 to hit. Put a Chaos Lord in there, and reroll those 1's. Hilarious.

I also think a big problem is how important CP is, and how easy it is to game it by taking cheap troops to fill out a Battalion. That's a huge mistake with 8th edition IMHO.

 vaklor4 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Btw, I believe that 40 man blobs of cultists only works with abbadon or an Iron warrior warlord. I could be wrong about that, though.

Actually, Tzeetch cultists work pretty good too A 40 cultist blob with a Sorcerer bubblewrapped inside it can give them all a 5++ invuln, and +1 to hit. Put a Chaos Lord in there, and reroll those 1's. Hilarious.

But what about morale?

Are we on about tactical equivalent marines here or are we on about Marines in general?

I like the idea that Chaos Marine forces are filled out with chaff and the Marines serve as the specialists that are much rarer. It's more fitting to the fluff I think and reinforces the idea that Chaos Marines are rare.

Tactical Chaos Marines might not be the best option in a competitive environment but they aren't really supposed to be the "best" at anything, they're supposed to be an all rounder. Of course Berzerkers will hit harder in melee and there are better options for heavy weapons.

pismakron wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Btw, I believe that 40 man blobs of cultists only works with abbadon or an Iron warrior warlord. I could be wrong about that, though.

Actually, Tzeetch cultists work pretty good too A 40 cultist blob with a Sorcerer bubblewrapped inside it can give them all a 5++ invuln, and +1 to hit. Put a Chaos Lord in there, and reroll those 1's. Hilarious.

But what about morale?

2 CP to regenerate the entire freakin' unit with a stratagem. Unless you get the entire unit wiped in one turn, you can just completelyregenerate them.

@vaklor i now want to try that cultist idea

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
@vaklor i now want to try that cultist idea

Use autoguns, the stratagem to revive them sets them up 6" from the edge of the board, and 9" away from any enemy, at the end of movement phase. Sooo...Far better to have them always be in rapid fire range, and away from enemies. It's extra hilarious against CC armies, who have to chase around your cultists

I don't think it has anything to do with Chaos Space Marines. Normal Space Marines arguably suffer a bit of the same. It's just a game edition where (so far) large blobs of poor infantry/models becomes mathematically superior to normal "quasi-elite" models.

I personally don't have major problems running my Chaos Space Marine force, but I've relied on more tanks and some heavy dreadnoughts to do the heavy lifting. Also, basic Chaos Space Marines are pretty reasonable for what they get done.

In a tournament setting? Forget about it...tournament players are sadists.

When S vs T doesnt matter anymore
When high point units dont get as many wounds/attacks as low points
When high point units dont flood the table to hold obj and deny DS
When cover is really hard to get high points die even faster
When the game is designed in everyway to make hordes king, you get hordes.


Example, If you had enough SB's, they will always be mathematically better than equal points in Melta guns. Same concept.

 vaklor4 wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 vaklor4 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Btw, I believe that 40 man blobs of cultists only works with abbadon or an Iron warrior warlord. I could be wrong about that, though.

Actually, Tzeetch cultists work pretty good too A 40 cultist blob with a Sorcerer bubblewrapped inside it can give them all a 5++ invuln, and +1 to hit. Put a Chaos Lord in there, and reroll those 1's. Hilarious.

But what about morale?

2 CP to regenerate the entire freakin' unit with a stratagem. Unless you get the entire unit wiped in one turn, you can just completelyregenerate them.

Yes, but without Abbadon or that Iron Warriors warlord trait your opponent just have to kill 20 cultists, and then the squad is wiped from morale. I don't see how it can ever be viable

 Amishprn86 wrote:
When S vs T doesnt matter anymore
When high point units dont get as many wounds/attacks as low points
When high point units dont flood the table to hold obj and deny DS
When cover is really hard to get high points die even faster
When the game is designed in everyway to make hordes king, you get hordes.


Example, If you had enough SB's, they will always be mathematically better than equal points in Melta guns. Same concept.

Sure you COULD buy 8 storm bolters for 1 meltagun and that sounds awesome, but it completely ignores the bodies needed to carry them.
So two SB models shooting a T7 3+ tank versus one melta is 0.6 versus 1.6. It's pretty clear which is better against tanks.

I'm not sure where you get the SvT doesn't matter any more. Hordes get tons of low quality attacks. And then people go and compare them with buffs to squads without. Berzerkers and other melee types will make a joke of them. On top of that horde shooting barring IG is pretty damned pitiful.

There are still problems with hordes, but there is a reason armies aren't JUST hordes, because there is a lot they DON'T do.

And when pure horde armies do win it's against someone who didn't bother to take anything other than lascannons.

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
When S vs T doesnt matter anymore
When high point units dont get as many wounds/attacks as low points
When high point units dont flood the table to hold obj and deny DS
When cover is really hard to get high points die even faster
When the game is designed in everyway to make hordes king, you get hordes.


Example, If you had enough SB's, they will always be mathematically better than equal points in Melta guns. Same concept.

Sure you COULD buy 8 storm bolters for 1 meltagun and that sounds awesome, but it completely ignores the bodies needed to carry them.
So two SB models shooting a T7 3+ tank versus one melta is 0.6 versus 1.6. It's pretty clear which is better against tanks.

I'm not sure where you get the SvT doesn't matter any more. Hordes get tons of low quality attacks. And then people go and compare them with buffs to squads without. Berzerkers and other melee types will make a joke of them. On top of that horde shooting barring IG is pretty damned pitiful.

There are still problems with hordes, but there is a reason armies aren't JUST hordes, because there is a lot they DON'T do.

And when pure horde armies do win it's against someone who didn't bother to take anything other than lascannons.

Except on a lot of units you can do just that with the bodies needed to carry that many weapons. Space Marine Command Squads and Sternguard, Chaos Marine Chosen, and Sisters Command Squads and Dominions (I think that's the name?) Can all do that. Flamers have the same exact problem.

What you describe is only an issue on the Troops, and almost all those troop choices are garbage.

It was also an example not that you should.... Hordes CAN do what the example pointed out, instead of spending 13-15pts for 1 body that is "better" in stats, you can just take 3-5 bodies when together does more than that 1 better body.

And FYI, SOB can do 93 Bodies all with SB's (this is also 3 HQ's) for only 1200pts. 6 Units of HB squads (with 1SB each) added to that is now 1750pts and that is in total 99 SB's, 24 HB's on 123 Power armor girls all with a special weapon. You can spend the rest of the points on a Wall and 4-5 Imagifiers to get more AoF's for your HB's. It all re-rolls 1's to hit.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except on a lot of units you can do just that with the bodies needed to carry that many weapons. Space Marine Command Squads and Sternguard, Chaos Marine Chosen, and Sisters Command Squads and Dominions (I think that's the name?) Can all do that. Flamers have the same exact problem.

What you describe is only an issue on the Troops, and almost all those troop choices are garbage.

That still doesn't make SB better than melta. By that metric even autoguns are better. If you want to hunt tanks then even 1 melta and 4 SB is better than 5 SB on Chosen/Sternguard/whatever.

35 Chosen w/ Combi
10 wounds to T7 3+

25 Chosen w/ Combi and 5 Chosen w/ Melta
15 wounds to T7 3+

Both of those are the same total points.

Wayniac wrote:
I also think a big problem is how important CP is, and how easy it is to game it by taking cheap troops to fill out a Battalion. That's a huge mistake with 8th edition IMHO.

Agreed they should base it on points spent in various sections rather then how many units you have in that section.

Plague marines and Rubrics are not nearly as cursed as the generic chaos marine but that's because over 6 editions it still never figured how to properly make that entry work. Indeed, without a poxwalkers or tzangor then pure armies would never be played. Chaff is an absolute must in this edition so I'm glad to see them included.

Plague marine plasma gun spam seems to be very effective.

They can pack something like 9 in 3 squads.
Rapid fire that's 18 - 3 ap shots.

Add a lord to re roll and add 2 wound overcharges.

Then they hurt alot... So much so much.

Plus power Armour and 3+ saves and DR... They end up being hard to remove.

And plague weapons bonus...

They have a solid range of buffs.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except on a lot of units you can do just that with the bodies needed to carry that many weapons. Space Marine Command Squads and Sternguard, Chaos Marine Chosen, and Sisters Command Squads and Dominions (I think that's the name?) Can all do that. Flamers have the same exact problem.

What you describe is only an issue on the Troops, and almost all those troop choices are garbage.

That still doesn't make SB better than melta. By that metric even autoguns are better. If you want to hunt tanks then even 1 melta and 4 SB is better than 5 SB on Chosen/Sternguard/whatever.

35 Chosen w/ Combi
10 wounds to T7 3+

25 Chosen w/ Combi and 5 Chosen w/ Melta
15 wounds to T7 3+

Both of those are the same total points.

Which is why you compare the price of the bodies and the weapons paid for. This isn't rocket science to understand why the Melta Gun is really bad right now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except on a lot of units you can do just that with the bodies needed to carry that many weapons. Space Marine Command Squads and Sternguard, Chaos Marine Chosen, and Sisters Command Squads and Dominions (I think that's the name?) Can all do that. Flamers have the same exact problem.

What you describe is only an issue on the Troops, and almost all those troop choices are garbage.

That still doesn't make SB better than melta. By that metric even autoguns are better. If you want to hunt tanks then even 1 melta and 4 SB is better than 5 SB on Chosen/Sternguard/whatever.

35 Chosen w/ Combi
10 wounds to T7 3+

25 Chosen w/ Combi and 5 Chosen w/ Melta
15 wounds to T7 3+

Both of those are the same total points.

Which is why you compare the price of the bodies and the weapons paid for. This isn't rocket science to understand why the Melta Gun is really bad right now.

This literally does that. The melta gun has a delivery problem. Not an efficiency one.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Except on a lot of units you can do just that with the bodies needed to carry that many weapons. Space Marine Command Squads and Sternguard, Chaos Marine Chosen, and Sisters Command Squads and Dominions (I think that's the name?) Can all do that. Flamers have the same exact problem.

What you describe is only an issue on the Troops, and almost all those troop choices are garbage.

That still doesn't make SB better than melta. By that metric even autoguns are better. If you want to hunt tanks then even 1 melta and 4 SB is better than 5 SB on Chosen/Sternguard/whatever.

35 Chosen w/ Combi
10 wounds to T7 3+

25 Chosen w/ Combi and 5 Chosen w/ Melta
15 wounds to T7 3+

Both of those are the same total points.

Which is why you compare the price of the bodies and the weapons paid for. This isn't rocket science to understand why the Melta Gun is really bad right now.

This literally does that. The melta gun has a delivery problem. Not an efficiency one.

Yes it absolutely does have an efficiency one on top of that. That's why people go to Storm Bolter equivalents and Plasma equivalents instead of Flamers and Melta Guns. Delivery issues AND price.