Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
So apart from noting which units are seemingly over/under powered from the performances at LVO is anyone else kinda over the fethin moon about these results?
Am I the only person who's excited to see that the meta is evolving and changing? That we're seeing lists other than IG, Girlyman and Chaos soupity soup do well?
Given the variation in the top 8 lists and those we have seen do well at other tournaments this news fills me with a lot of hope that GW is absolutely on the right track with this edition.
Conscript spam a problem? GW sorts it.
Brimstone spam a problem? GW sorts it.
I wonder what will happen to Reapers....
The days of stale, unending exploit metas may actually be over! We might actually have here a game that is flexible and regularly evolving. I for one am ecstatic at the results, though a little disappointed that Nids were nowhere to be seen.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So apart from noting which units are seemingly over/under powered from the performances at LVO is anyone else kinda over the fethin moon about these results?
Am I the only person who's excited to see that the meta is evolving and changing? That we're seeing lists other than IG, Girlyman and Chaos soupity soup do well?
Given the variation in the top 8 lists and those we have seen do well at other tournaments this news fills me with a lot of hope that GW is absolutely on the right track with this edition.
Conscript spam a problem? GW sorts it.
Brimstone spam a problem? GW sorts it.
I wonder what will happen to Reapers....
The days of stale, unending exploit metas may actually be over! We might actually have here a game that is flexible and regularly evolving. I for one am ecstatic at the results, though a little disappointed that Nids were nowhere to be seen.
I agree. While Reapers, Guard Infantry squads, and the Death Company Captain (I was expecting the fire raptor too but it didn't do nearly as well as I expected) stand out as units that are probably overperforming the days of "Stormravens. The problem is Stormravens" are long gone and the meta looks completely different from what it did even a month or two ago. We can fully expect the things that are a problem at this LVO to be sorted in March, as GW has been sorting every balance problem 8th has had.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/28 22:25:32
Both the pure BA army and the Creepy Crawler army are in my meta. I'm very surprised to see the pure BA do well, he does not do well in our RTTs and other events, not bad but pretty much middle of the pack. However even at a big event like LVO most people are not going to win, I had lots of local players just take their usual lists and go 3-3, 4-2, etc. You absolutely can get to Top 8 with the right matchups and a semi-optimized army, that's how it works for all mini games. There's also been a lot of reports of slow play from many sources, people either don't have enough reps or are doing that intentionally, probably a mix. People also bring armies with loads of models where the game legitimately ends on Turn 3 due to time, you can get a Win for that but a low Score which makes your path weird.
Personally I'm disregarding the Top 8 armies except Eldar, they are pushing the meta right now. Other armies are very strong of course and I like the other Top 8 lists except the pure BA just fine but they aren't going to be meta defining, they're just solid. LVO will only put more people on Eldar net lists until March when there might be some changes, I'll be designing my armies with Eldar in mind above all other factions for the time being.
An Actual Englishman wrote: So apart from noting which units are seemingly over/under powered from the performances at LVO is anyone else kinda over the fethin moon about these results?
Am I the only person who's excited to see that the meta is evolving and changing? That we're seeing lists other than IG, Girlyman and Chaos soupity soup do well?
Given the variation in the top 8 lists and those we have seen do well at other tournaments this news fills me with a lot of hope that GW is absolutely on the right track with this edition.
Conscript spam a problem? GW sorts it.
Brimstone spam a problem? GW sorts it.
I wonder what will happen to Reapers....
The days of stale, unending exploit metas may actually be over! We might actually have here a game that is flexible and regularly evolving. I for one am ecstatic at the results, though a little disappointed that Nids were nowhere to be seen.
I agree. While Reapers, Guard Infantry squads, and the Death Company Captain (I was expecting the fire raptor too but it didn't do nearly as well as I expected) stand out as units that are probably overperforming the days of "Stormravens. The problem is Stormravens" are long gone and the meta looks completely different from what it did even a month or two ago. We can fully expect the things that are a problem at this LVO to be sorted in March, as GW has been sorting every balance problem 8th has had.
I agree with you both. The variety in lists in the top 100 , even top 50 was refreshing. Even in the top 10 you find variety. And the good part is that the meta will not be the same for 1-2 years, leaning to people in the last half of the cicle to have all the same lists.
Of course some people will live in the delusion that GW does this in purpose to make people buy X unit and then nerf it two months after to push another model, and even having proof that they did this in the past with some specific units like WraithKnights, if this style of balancing remain, people will stop buying the most OP unit en masse, because it isn't gonna be worth it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/28 22:52:23
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Remember when people said Orkz had one of the best if not the best Index army in the game?
Well, I think they did and this LVO doesn't dispute that. The Orks are now fighting a lot of Codex armies.
And well, gee, would you look at that? Most of the Top 100 is Codex armies.
So Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, Tau and GSC don't count because...?
The only army that is still on Index that did worse was Necrons.
I didn't say Orkz were the ONLY one, I just said their low placement is expected. Codex armies are a lot more powerful than Index armies so they should take most the spots, which they did. If you want to say Orkz are weak, you need to compare them only to other Index armies. The Ork lists were much more likely to face Codex opponents than Index opponents, thus driving down their score.
I didn't say Orkz were the ONLY one, I just said their low placement is expected. Codex armies are a lot more powerful than Index armies so they should take most the spots, which they did. If you want to say Orkz are weak, you need to compare them only to other Index armies. The Ork lists were much more likely to face Codex opponents than Index opponents, thus driving down their score.
Yes but the same is true of other index armies that managed to do well, they too would be facing codex lists but they managed to do better.
I believe that the Ork index was perceived as strong in a very simplistic way. Boyz are good. Da jump is good. Now that other armies have shenanigans such as -1 to hit and a lot of other tools to counter the Orks' relatively simple tactic of "get into combat ASAP" I think our weaknesses will be revealed more and more. Of course the meta has also likely learnt how to deal with Orks as well, we know many lists bring tools to deal with massed bodies and that is our most viable list.
Still at least the disparity between index and codex armies isn't as vast as it has been in the past.
I didn't say Orkz were the ONLY one, I just said their low placement is expected. Codex armies are a lot more powerful than Index armies so they should take most the spots, which they did. If you want to say Orkz are weak, you need to compare them only to other Index armies. The Ork lists were much more likely to face Codex opponents than Index opponents, thus driving down their score.
Yes but the same is true of other index armies that managed to do well, they too would be facing codex lists but they managed to do better.
I believe that the Ork index was perceived as strong in a very simplistic way. Boyz are good. Da jump is good. Now that other armies have shenanigans such as -1 to hit and a lot of other tools to counter the Orks' relatively simple tactic of "get into combat ASAP" I think our weaknesses will be revealed more and more. Of course the meta has also likely learnt how to deal with Orks as well, we know many lists bring tools to deal with massed bodies and that is our most viable list.
Still at least the disparity between index and codex armies isn't as vast as it has been in the past.
They have but just because they did a bit better than Orkz doesn't say a whole lot. Space Puppies and Tau were high so maybe there's something there but 55 Vs. 81 / 89 (Necrons and Deathwatch)? Small changes can make those kind of big shifts in rankings. Same with comparing them to Genestealers (33).
1) The Death Guard player is running like 10 plagueburst crawlers though to "prove" to GW it's OP and needs a nerf.
2) The Eldar guy in #1 is using the dubious interpretation of a rule as written to get the craftworld bonus PLUS Ynnari to abuse it. He's literally playing to the rules, not playing the game.
Is this really the kind of bullgak we want to see? Tournament or not. Min/maxing lists are one thing. But exploiting obvious loopholes just because you can? Is that what we have really degenerated into? At that point why not trot out that bullgak about how by the letter of the rules you can't advance and fire assault weapons due to the wording? Where do you draw the line at "This clearly isn't intended but I can get away with it by claiming RAW"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/28 23:17:25
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
Lanlaorn wrote: I think the numbers show pretty clearly that Infantry Squads are in the same category as Dark Reapers.
Funny you mention that. Numbers? You realize dark reapers cost virtually same as infantry squads? Let the incompetence of Phil Kelly sink in - a model with 3+ save and unmodifiable 3+ to hit that works even on things like Culexus cost same as model with 5+ save and 4+ to hit. Yup, you read that right, 5 points, for stats (these that matter that is) better than 15 pts space marine. And on top of that colossal mountain of cheese, their missile launchers are better and cheaper than SM or IG ones.
If numbers say anything, it's how colossal hyperbole and blinkers on IG are around these parts
May Gork and Mork reward those brave Ork player souls who dared to defy the masses!
honestly, Orks were only seen as "good" because competitive players who havnt had to deal with orks for the last few years got their ass handed too them because they hadn't figured out hoe tomplay 8th ed yet. They freaked out and moaned which makes me scared for our codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 00:09:32
Lanlaorn wrote: I think the numbers show pretty clearly that Infantry Squads are in the same category as Dark Reapers.
Funny you mention that. Numbers? You realize dark reapers cost virtually same as infantry squads? Let the incompetence of Phil Kelly sink in - a model with 3+ save and unmodifiable 3+ to hit that works even on things like Culexus cost same as model with 5+ save and 4+ to hit. Yup, you read that right, 5 points, for stats (these that matter that is) better than 15 pts space marine. And on top of that colossal mountain of cheese, their missile launchers are better and cheaper than SM or IG ones.
If numbers say anything, it's how colossal hyperbole and blinkers on IG are around these parts
This is a pretty hollow argument honestly. I'm not going to sit here and say Reapers are fine, but to reference their base cost without weapons as an argument is just downright bad comparisons. That's like saying Servitors are the most overpowered chaff unit in the game because they only cost 2 points a model. I can put 50 wounds of chaff in front of my SM as a screen for 100 points. I know it's an extreme example and I'm not talking about force org legality of it, but it shows that the comparison has to take into account the final model price.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/29 00:11:16
And from what I knew - Eldar was like, mostly Dark Reaper spam. Can you spot the next incoming nerf? I can
Is soup and mixing and matching various things really "Chaos" though? In the sense that most people talk about when they talk about a faction being strong? I wouldn't think so. The majority of people when they talk about X faction being strong, they really mean that faction without taking various bits and pieces, they usually mean Chaos as in "I want a pure iron warriors list" or "I want a pure noise marine army" not "I'm going to take slaanesh obliterators and brimstone horrors and magnus and blah blah blah" together into some frankenstein army.
Man that DG list is sickening. I just played against DG the other day, he had 4 crawlers and that was hard to deal with. I couldn't imagine dealing with 10!
Remember when people said Orkz had one of the best if not the best Index army in the game?
Well, I think they did and this LVO doesn't dispute that. The Orks are now fighting a lot of Codex armies.
And well, gee, would you look at that? Most of the Top 100 is Codex armies.
So Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, Tau and GSC don't count because...?
The only army that is still on Index that did worse was Necrons.
I didn't say Orkz were the ONLY one, I just said their low placement is expected. Codex armies are a lot more powerful than Index armies so they should take most the spots, which they did. If you want to say Orkz are weak, you need to compare them only to other Index armies. The Ork lists were much more likely to face Codex opponents than Index opponents, thus driving down their score.
My original comment was pointing out the reaction at the start of 8th by people saying Orkz were Finally in a good place and competitive. I said that they wouldn't last because people would eventually figure out how to beat the 1 build we have. The point I was attempting to make though is that now that is true and the supposedly "good" ork index got beaten by almost every other index army, and honestly, deathwatch doesn't count. They are an addition force not an independent army, same with inquisition and a handful of others.
Wayniac wrote: Some notes though:
1) The Death Guard player is running like 10 plagueburst crawlers though to "prove" to GW it's OP and needs a nerf.
The CD faq for keywords doesn't fix this? The goal seems to be T9 crawlers, right?
2) The Eldar guy in #1 is using the dubious interpretation of a rule as written to get the craftworld bonus PLUS Ynnari to abuse it. He's literally playing to the rules, not playing the game.
Did the TOs ever weigh in? It seems odd that they wouldn't make that call.
Is this really the kind of bullgak we want to see? Tournament or not. Min/maxing lists are one thing. But exploiting obvious loopholes just because you can? Is that what we have really degenerated into? At that point why not trot out that bullgak about how by the letter of the rules you can't advance and fire assault weapons due to the wording? Where do you draw the line at "This clearly isn't intended but I can get away with it by claiming RAW"?
This is precisely why it is GOOD to see, because we can highlight it and hand it over to GW to fix and we can KNOW that we'll get a response.
Lanlaorn wrote: I think the numbers show pretty clearly that Infantry Squads are in the same category as Dark Reapers.
Funny you mention that. Numbers? You realize dark reapers cost virtually same as infantry squads? Let the incompetence of Phil Kelly sink in - a model with 3+ save and unmodifiable 3+ to hit that works even on things like Culexus cost same as model with 5+ save and 4+ to hit. Yup, you read that right, 5 points, for stats (these that matter that is) better than 15 pts space marine. And on top of that colossal mountain of cheese, their missile launchers are better and cheaper than SM or IG ones.
If numbers say anything, it's how colossal hyperbole and blinkers on IG are around these parts
They're going to get nerfed. No worries.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/29 02:26:57
Lanlaorn wrote: It's worth noting that even thought there were Blood Angels and even a Space Wolf guy in the top 8, if you look at the lists it's all
"Space Wolf HQs and 10 units of Infantry Squads". I think the top BA guy brought 6 infantry squads?
Before the Guard players come in to declare there's nothing wrong with their codex, I think the numbers show pretty clearly that Infantry Squads are in the same category as Dark Reapers.
Oh please.
First it was Conscripts and Commissars, now you're whining about Infantry Squads?
TwitchyReaper wrote: The Death Guard list that made the top 8 was not the 10 Crawler list by the way. Just an FYI
Yeah, that confused me too, the Death Guard list was 30 Pink Horrors, some Pox Walkers in the Aquila Fortress, and some HQ and cultists/brimstones. He saved 553 points for reinforcements and basically made the Pink Horror squad unkillable and set them in front of the fortress, with the Pox Walkers manning the fortress guns.
He’d pop The Dead Walk Again, people would shoot up his Pink Horrors, and he’d replace them with 2 Blues and a Pox Walker in the fortress, it was honestly kind of brilliant. I thought it was a really good use of reinforcements and a very original list.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Remember when people said Orkz had one of the best if not the best Index army in the game?
Well, I think they did and this LVO doesn't dispute that. The Orks are now fighting a lot of Codex armies.
And well, gee, would you look at that? Most of the Top 100 is Codex armies.
So Space Wolves, Sisters of Battle, Tau and GSC don't count because...?
The only army that is still on Index that did worse was Necrons.
I didn't say Orkz were the ONLY one, I just said their low placement is expected. Codex armies are a lot more powerful than Index armies so they should take most the spots, which they did. If you want to say Orkz are weak, you need to compare them only to other Index armies. The Ork lists were much more likely to face Codex opponents than Index opponents, thus driving down their score.
My original comment was pointing out the reaction at the start of 8th by people saying Orkz were Finally in a good place and competitive. I said that they wouldn't last because people would eventually figure out how to beat the 1 build we have. The point I was attempting to make though is that now that is true and the supposedly "good" ork index got beaten by almost every other index army, and honestly, deathwatch doesn't count. They are an addition force not an independent army, same with inquisition and a handful of others.
I'm sure the Deathwatch players love you, much like the Grey Knight players love Reecius.
Anyway, I think you're indulging in a bit of hyperbole with "almost every other Index army" (see my previous post). That said, even if we accept that Orks are doing worse than "almost every other" Index, that still doesn't prove your point. Just because the Orks do worse than other Index armies against Codex armies doesn't mean they did worse than other Index armies against Index armies.
Lanlaorn wrote: It's worth noting that even thought there were Blood Angels and even a Space Wolf guy in the top 8, if you look at the lists it's all
"Space Wolf HQs and 10 units of Infantry Squads". I think the top BA guy brought 6 infantry squads?
Before the Guard players come in to declare there's nothing wrong with their codex, I think the numbers show pretty clearly that Infantry Squads are in the same category as Dark Reapers.
Oh please.
First it was Conscripts and Commissars, now you're whining about Infantry Squads?
Yes? If a unit is too good, it should be nerfed. Judging by LVO placements, the following units should be considered for a nerf: dark reapers, infantry squads, and the Death Company Captain. I'm not sure how to nerf the Captain since what he does doesn't cost any points, though.
TwitchyReaper wrote: The Death Guard list that made the top 8 was not the 10 Crawler list by the way. Just an FYI
Yeah, that confused me too, the Death Guard list was 30 Pink Horrors, some Pox Walkers in the Aquila Fortress, and some HQ and cultists/brimstones. He saved 553 points for reinforcements and basically made the Pink Horror squad unkillable and set them in front of the fortress, with the Pox Walkers manning the fortress guns.
He’d pop The Dead Walk Again, people would shoot up his Pink Horrors, and he’d replace them with 2 Blues and a Pox Walker in the fortress, it was honestly kind of brilliant. I thought it was a really good use of reinforcements and a very original list.
Yeah. I didn’t spawn the Poxwalkers from inside the fortress though. I would jump out and pop the Cloud of Flies strat and force my opponent to be able to target either the Horrors or the building. It worked out pretty well for me. Barely missed a shot at the title.
