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The problem is you need black and white rule, if you have to much grey or let him fix his turn mistake, players will try to abuse the system and recall.

I always place Dice at the start of my turn where i think i want my DS'er to go, mostly b.c i forget sometimes.

When i do forget i just wait till next turn, i try to play by the rules, but sometimes if its just at the start of psychic and i didnt cast yet i'll ask my partner if its ok, most the time there is no problem, but i DONT blame them for saying i shouldnt, it was my fault.

We ar responsible for our rules.

Daedalus81 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

I know there are dice apps (i think there is a GW official one if I'm not mistaken). if there isn't a GW official one they should develop it and allow for it to be used in competitive play. That way instead of counting out 100 dice then plucking up 4+ or whatever you could type it in and roll it in a fraction of the time.

There are plenty of apps, but you're facing two issues:

1) People like to roll dice
2) Distrust of apps

If there was indeed one that could verify rolls and prevent app tampering it could work, but would require constant communication with a server.

1. People could still roll dice it would simply take more of their time.
2. That’s why it would have to be the official ITC or GW app.
It would be just as easy to bring loaded dice to a tournament as it would be to hack the app

For chess clock advocates.

1.) using it at only big events favors people that are accustomed to it. So either it will trickle down to store level play or people will mess up during big events. So it isn't fair to say only use it at big events.

2.)There will be a lot of switching back and forth. Anytime interaction happens which is a lot. Psychic phase (denial, removing models, taking saves.), shooting removing models, taking saves, assault (pile in, saves, attacks). Any check of measurement, rules question, Los check. This is way more than war machine with abstract LOS rules, and little interaction on your opponents turn.

3.) if you run out of time and need to skip turns, do you also skip saves? Attacks in combat etc. risk of this is huge and largely favors static gunlines who don't need to move. Or assault.

It comes down to if time is frequently going over, either shrink army size or increase round times.

Other things that would help are event supplied dice pools that are shared, that way you just pick up the wound dice and roll them for saves. Maybe specific amount of time for deployment that cannot be exceeded and models not deployed are lost. Not sure, but really clocks are not likely to happen in the game because it is just too complicated.

 daedalus wrote:
I'm surprised there weren't both more Dark Angels players, and higher ranking Dark Angels players.

Dark angels like to gunline. Specifically stand still and shoot to get that free re-roll and stay in Azazels 4++. There are other armies that do this better than DA. Not moving and winning is very difficult using the ITC champion rules. Also without proper chaff they lose to the melee bomb gate-keeper lists (hard to for marines to have proper chaff). They need a more reliable deepstrike so they don't get alpha'd off the table before they can weaken the enemy enough to survive getting shot at (hard to do with webwaying eldar, deepstriking oblits, non-los artillery/bugs, range tanking fire raptors, melee bombs, character targeting shenanigans, what else is strong in the meta?)

Also, dark reapers eat marine gunlines for breakfast so you got that too. They do even more work against primaris and bikers (DA staples) and don't care about your darkshroud.

BA deepstrike so they usually at least get to their target before they get blasted off the board. Also their captain smash-fer (or whatever we are calling the DC captain with 6-8 thunder hammer attacks) with their other characters is absurdly strong (single rounded a fire raptor by himself in one game). Backed by some DC and support characters BA have a really good deepstrike melee bomb.

Plasma inceptors are good but outclassed by other glass cannon units (shining spears) and again are great targets for the boogie men (reapers).

At least my 2 cents.

Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

 mugginns wrote:
WM/H has been using chess clocks for years and there are zero problems. Yes, 40k has more time spent in your opponent's turn doing stuff, but you tap it over to their turn while rolling saves. Not a problem.

warmahordes is a very different game, with fewer models, smaller scale, less dice, and a play paradigm built around time and pace. Most minis games are not, and its why we dont see chess clocks particularly prevalent (or at all) outside of PP, at least in my experience. Thinking back to Gencon last year, I dont recall seeing chessclocks at any event I participated in or spectated at, even ones with time limits.


If time really is an issue at events, that should tell the organizers they need to reduce the game size and crack down on individuals, not attempt to layer on a new dimension of gameable mechanics that can introduce yet more drama.

Breng77 wrote:
For chess clock advocates.

1.) using it at only big events favors people that are accustomed to it. So either it will trickle down to store level play or people will mess up during big events. So it isn't fair to say only use it at big events.

2.)There will be a lot of switching back and forth. Anytime interaction happens which is a lot. Psychic phase (denial, removing models, taking saves.), shooting removing models, taking saves, assault (pile in, saves, attacks). Any check of measurement, rules question, Los check. This is way more than war machine with abstract LOS rules, and little interaction on your opponents turn.

3.) if you run out of time and need to skip turns, do you also skip saves? Attacks in combat etc. risk of this is huge and largely favors static gunlines who don't need to move. Or assault.

It comes down to if time is frequently going over, either shrink army size or increase round times.

Other things that would help are event supplied dice pools that are shared, that way you just pick up the wound dice and roll them for saves. Maybe specific amount of time for deployment that cannot be exceeded and models not deployed are lost. Not sure, but really clocks are not likely to happen in the game because it is just too complicated.

1. Chess clocks are simple to use and if you want to play in a major GT you have to learn to play with what they use. No different from special mission packets or terrain rules
2. I’d say keep it simple with any save rolls your opponent does staying on the same clock. But you could switch for every roll
3. I’d say you still roll saves/ attacks because those happen in your opponents turn. When your turn comes you would simply have to pass
I’d also be open to shrinking down to 1750 points. I think it would help the tournament scene a lot

 auticus wrote:
Lower the point values of tournaments.

Honestly, the tail end of 7th had a really interesting thing where some tournaments were trying 1650 (down from 1850) as a way to both curb some of the really nasty lists and to speed up the games. I recall one podcast talking about it (can't remember which) where they said at 1850 they had like 60% percentage of games conclude without going to time, and at 1650 it was like over 90%.

Also, lower points would curb some of the CP-abusing BS you see.

Wayniac wrote:

 auticus wrote:
Lower the point values of tournaments.

Honestly, the tail end of 7th had a really interesting thing where some tournaments were trying 1650 (down from 1850) as a way to both curb some of the really nasty lists and to speed up the games. I recall one podcast talking about it (can't remember which) where they said at 1850 they had like 60% percentage of games conclude without going to time, and at 1650 it was like over 90%.

Also, lower points would curb some of the CP-abusing BS you see.

The long war guys have been advocating for it

Yeah, I can't see why chess clocks aren't part of tournaments. I think other games use them.

Have a look into WMH steamroller tournaments.
They are an important part of a game there.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 mugginns wrote:
WM/H has been using chess clocks for years and there are zero problems. Yes, 40k has more time spent in your opponent's turn doing stuff, but you tap it over to their turn while rolling saves. Not a problem.

warmahordes is a very different game, with fewer models, smaller scale, less dice, and a play paradigm built around time and pace. Most minis games are not, and its why we dont see chess clocks particularly prevalent (or at all) outside of PP, at least in my experience. Thinking back to Gencon last year, I dont recall seeing chessclocks at any event I participated in or spectated at, even ones with time limits.


If time really is an issue at events, that should tell the organizers they need to reduce the game size and crack down on individuals, not attempt to layer on a new dimension of gameable mechanics that can introduce yet more drama.

Most other games don't have a problem with players taking forever to play the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

 mugginns wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 mugginns wrote:
WM/H has been using chess clocks for years and there are zero problems. Yes, 40k has more time spent in your opponent's turn doing stuff, but you tap it over to their turn while rolling saves. Not a problem.

warmahordes is a very different game, with fewer models, smaller scale, less dice, and a play paradigm built around time and pace. Most minis games are not, and its why we dont see chess clocks particularly prevalent (or at all) outside of PP, at least in my experience. Thinking back to Gencon last year, I dont recall seeing chessclocks at any event I participated in or spectated at, even ones with time limits.


If time really is an issue at events, that should tell the organizers they need to reduce the game size and crack down on individuals, not attempt to layer on a new dimension of gameable mechanics that can introduce yet more drama.

Most other games don't have a problem with players taking forever to play the game.

people play to time frequently in many games. Hell, I didnt finish a single game at the L5R reboot event at Gencon, they all went to time

With respect to 40k, most time issues are with game size. Drop it down and you solve most of the honest issues with time, and make intentional slow play that much harder and more awkward and easy to spot, all without the awkward extra elements and costs. With top dudes on top tables playing streamed games, well, thats what you have judges for, if they cant get passed turn 2 like that, the judges need to step in.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

3d6 charge?

A chess clock would kill me.

I play very fast for the size of my army, but there's a lot of models and i just can't move that fast.

Additionally, I literally have turns where i'll roll 400 dice. No matter how fast you are at rolling dice, it simply cannot be done at speed.

And, I do think GW will adjust reapers. Because, everyone know Reapers would there in force, but people weren't really able to deal with them. When you *know* you're going to face a unit and you can't list build and plan to counter play, that's a problem. I know there are a lot of Eldar players who will disagree, but i don't think it's healthy to have one army that you can't adjust to play against. And it doesn't have to be a major change. But enough of a change where lists don't have 30+ reapers in them.

In Warmachine when you run out of time you simply lose. There's more complicated ways of doing it (Guild Ball has some wonky sudden death rules), but its pretty fair. To win the game you have to play your half of the game in the time required. It's not a huge deal and the turn limit in 40k makes it even less of an issue (WM recently put a turn limit on to remove issues with chess clocks). I would probably make a stipulation for games that go past turn 5 though.

As far as clock flipping goes; its actually a nice bit of etiquette once you get used it it. You flip the clock when your opponent has an opportunity to make a decision and they flip it back to give you control. It's easy and honestly, kind of fun. If your opponent is on the ball for things like Deny's and the like you generally don't even flip it over. It really just keeps the game moving.

As for usage; honestly, its easier to start using them at local events than the big ones. They're really not that expensive and even bringing one to your normal games can help you get games in at a better pace. They're also way easier on TOs than other forms of timers and do a much better job resolving rounds on time for everyone.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

3d6 charge?

Yes.

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

Do you happen to know what his range for the charge was?

 Marmatag wrote:
A chess clock would kill me.

I play very fast for the size of my army, but there's a lot of models and i just can't move that fast.

Additionally, I literally have turns where i'll roll 400 dice. No matter how fast you are at rolling dice, it simply cannot be done at speed.

And, I do think GW will adjust reapers. Because, everyone know Reapers would there in force, but people weren't really able to deal with them. When you *know* you're going to face a unit and you can't list build and plan to counter play, that's a problem. I know there are a lot of Eldar players who will disagree, but i don't think it's healthy to have one army that you can't adjust to play against. And it doesn't have to be a major change. But enough of a change where lists don't have 30+ reapers in them.

A chess clock would have almost no affect on you if you are currently finishing games in time at tournaments. Except in the rare cases where you are just taking your opponents time to finish a game before 2 1/2 hours - which isn't actually fair ether. Everyone should have the same amount of time to complete their 4-5 turns.

Personally - they don't allow enough time IMO. Make it 3 hours each game - that seems more appropriate.

None of my IRL eldar friends pretend to think DR or SS are balanced units. Totally unbalanced units is what they are. Using craft-world stratagems from multiple craftworlds in a ynnari detachment is also enormously stupid. I can't believe that hasn't been FAQ'ed to not allow it.

 Larks wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

Do you happen to know what his range for the charge was?

No, but it was an illegal play.

Part of the other issue with chess clocks imo is that assault usually takes longer than shooting.

Steps in the shooting phase:

1) Pick unit, pick weapon declare target
2) Roll hit and wound
3) Roll saves
4) remove casualties

Repeat per unit, sometimes shooting twice.

Steps in the charge then assault phases:

1) Pick unit, declare charge on target unit
2) Resolve overwatch
3) Remove casualties
4) Roll distance
5) move to within 1"

repeat for each unit, then

1) Pick unit, but it had to charge first
2) move up to 3", but only if you end closer than you started to the nearest unit
3) roll to hit and to wound
4) roll saves
5) Remove casualties
6) move up to 3", but only if you end closer than you started to the nearest unit

repeat with each unit, for both sides, in one phase.

You'll find armies that depend on assaulting ending their games less quickly than armies that depend on shooting, I'll bet.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
A chess clock would kill me.

I play very fast for the size of my army, but there's a lot of models and i just can't move that fast.

Additionally, I literally have turns where i'll roll 400 dice. No matter how fast you are at rolling dice, it simply cannot be done at speed.

And, I do think GW will adjust reapers. Because, everyone know Reapers would there in force, but people weren't really able to deal with them. When you *know* you're going to face a unit and you can't list build and plan to counter play, that's a problem. I know there are a lot of Eldar players who will disagree, but i don't think it's healthy to have one army that you can't adjust to play against. And it doesn't have to be a major change. But enough of a change where lists don't have 30+ reapers in them.

A chess clock would have almost no affect on you if you are currently finishing games in time at tournaments. Except in the rare cases where you are just taking your opponents time to finish a game before 2 1/2 hours - which isn't actually fair ether. Everyone should have the same amount of time to complete their 4-5 turns.

Personally - they don't allow enough time IMO. Make it 3 hours each game - that seems more appropriate.

My games never make it past turn 3.. much of the time is taken by me, and not because i'm slow playing. But of course we get equal number of turns.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
None of my IRL eldar friends pretend to think DR or SS are balanced units. Totally unbalanced units is what they are. Using craft-world stratagems from multiple craftworlds in a ynnari detachment is also enormously stupid. I can't believe that hasn't been FAQ'ed to not allow it.

Same, all of my Eldar playing buddies understand and appreciate that the unit is broken. I could see them restricting the stratagems... and also the general cost, especially of the Tempest Launcher.

Iron Hands players everywhere weep at the loss of their Smasher.

Martel732 wrote:

 Larks wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

Do you happen to know what his range for the charge was?

No, but it was an illegal play.

It also seems stupid anyways.

He's using it on his captain instead of a unit of 15 DC. He was lucky to just survive the overwatch - maybe he was out of LOS. I always assumed that the double move and the 3d6 charge were being used on the 2x DC units. Or on a DC unit and a SG unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
A chess clock would kill me.

I play very fast for the size of my army, but there's a lot of models and i just can't move that fast.

Additionally, I literally have turns where i'll roll 400 dice. No matter how fast you are at rolling dice, it simply cannot be done at speed.

And, I do think GW will adjust reapers. Because, everyone know Reapers would there in force, but people weren't really able to deal with them. When you *know* you're going to face a unit and you can't list build and plan to counter play, that's a problem. I know there are a lot of Eldar players who will disagree, but i don't think it's healthy to have one army that you can't adjust to play against. And it doesn't have to be a major change. But enough of a change where lists don't have 30+ reapers in them.

A chess clock would have almost no affect on you if you are currently finishing games in time at tournaments. Except in the rare cases where you are just taking your opponents time to finish a game before 2 1/2 hours - which isn't actually fair ether. Everyone should have the same amount of time to complete their 4-5 turns.

Personally - they don't allow enough time IMO. Make it 3 hours each game - that seems more appropriate.

My games never make it past turn 3.. much of the time is taken by me, and not because i'm slow playing. But of course we get equal number of turns.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
None of my IRL eldar friends pretend to think DR or SS are balanced units. Totally unbalanced units is what they are. Using craft-world stratagems from multiple craftworlds in a ynnari detachment is also enormously stupid. I can't believe that hasn't been FAQ'ed to not allow it.

Same, all of my Eldar playing buddies understand and appreciate that the unit is broken. I could see them restricting the stratagems... and also the general cost, especially of the Tempest Launcher.

Would you then agree that total time is the issue? The game is really ment to go to turn 4-5-6.

Martel732 wrote:

 Larks wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

Do you happen to know what his range for the charge was?

No, but it was an illegal play.

... Yes, that's established.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Larks wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Single rounded a fire raptor after cheating, but we get the idea.

how did he cheat?

He burned descent of angels without arriving from deep strike.

Do you happen to know what his range for the charge was?

No, but it was an illegal play.

It also seems stupid anyways.

He's using it on his captain instead of a unit of 15 DC. He was lucky to just survive the overwatch - maybe he was out of LOS. I always assumed that the double move and the 3d6 charge were being used on the 2x DC units. Or on a DC unit and a SG unit.

Captain SmashF-er typically is given the relic "The Angel's Wings", which allows re-rolling failed charges and no overwatch. I'm sure this one was the same.

I assumed they took the relic thunder-hammer.

No, they take a regular one and pimp it out with "artisan of war" warlord trait.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Would you then agree that total time is the issue? The game is really ment to go to turn 4-5-6.

I would say just set the requirement that games are played through turn 4, and only ends earlier if someone is tabled, or gives up. I would *guess* that most games would resolve around 3 hours if that were the case, but by eliminating the time altogether, there's really nothing to be gained by slow playing.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Would you then agree that total time is the issue? The game is really ment to go to turn 4-5-6.

I would say just set the requirement that games are played through turn 4, and only ends earlier if someone is tabled, or gives up. I would *guess* that most games would resolve around 3 hours if that were the case, but by eliminating the time altogether, there's really nothing to be gained by slow playing.

In an ideal world every game would finish, but in a tournament you just can't have 1 game go 7 hours while everyone else is done in 3.