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Other than huge numbers of rerolls, I find a big factor in the speed of games is the new deep strike mechanics. As soon as you have an opponent with a very potent deep striking force, your movement phases are immediately forced to become far more meticulous if you dont want to immediately loose. Especially in dawn of war where you only have 12 inches of table to organise your blockers and lines into.

secretForge wrote:
Other than huge numbers of rerolls, I find a big factor in the speed of games is the new deep strike mechanics. As soon as you have an opponent with a very potent deep striking force, your movement phases are immediately forced to become far more meticulous if you dont want to immediately loose. Especially in dawn of war where you only have 12 inches of table to organise your blockers and lines into.

Exactly this.

Because it's not just creating a bubble, it's also denying the guns, too. This problem will exist at any realistic point level for a game in 8th edition. They handed out deep strike like candy with no real premium for a lot of armies.

And now with shooting as strong as it is, you absolutely want as much as you can in deep strike reserve. Seriously, go second against a list with 30+ dark reapers with 100% of your army on the board. You wanted a fast game, this will get you a fast game.

And to the poster who said the game should go beyond 5 turns: NO. In what universe is that considered appropriate? You have to roll off to see if the game continues by the book missions, there is essentially no reason to allow for 7 turns in this edition. The example of 3 turns allowing infantry to foot slog across the board is such a silly example. So you add an extra turn, and now they're still slogging. So is the argument we need 5 turns so foot slogging, slow infantry can march up the board and charge? LOL.

A gunline at 1500 points, like Guard or Eldar, will essentially operate the same as it does now. And you will have less of a deep strike presence, and when they shoot several hundred points off of the table with absolute ease turn 1, because these armies wouldn't see that much of a drop off in firepower, you will be pretty much lost by turn 1.

Another thing you guys aren't considering too, is that the ITC missions create longer play scenarios. There is scoring at the end of your turn. There is scoring at the end of the opponent's turn. There is scoring at the end of the game turn. There are secondaries that can be scored at all times. If you just put 2000 points on the table and played "the relic" the game would go A LOT faster than an ITC game.

This thread has become garbage and i hate it, if only i could lock it myself.

Marmatag are you okay? Theres no need to be so invested in a internet discussion about tournaments in warhammer.

@Martamag

Mate calm down. You seem to really go overboard.

I won't even refute your points since i believe it will do more harm than good at this point.

 Marmatag wrote:


This thread has become garbage and i hate it, if only i could lock it myself.

Is someone threatening violence against you if you don't post in it? Blink twice if someone is holding a gun to your head. We'll send for help.

But also big lol at the claim that reducing points will somehow dramatically reduce some armies capability to counter gunlines, but gunlines will still hit with the exact same strength. This is some next level logic we're dealing with.

 Galas wrote:
Marmatag are you okay? Theres no need to be so invested in a internet discussion about tournaments in warhammer.

Good point. Been a rough week - I'll curb the salt, it's not necessary here and it makes the forums worse.

Time for a quick break

It is easier to not get mad about game threads on the internet if you don't take huge assumptions as fact.

Ordana wrote:

 mugginns wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't believe there is a time problem in the first place.

This whole discussion is predicated on everyone agreeing that we need to see longer games (turn wise). I do not agree. Making it to turn 3 at least in virtually every game is enough. Turn 5 is not required for a good game.

It's not particularly well written, but in terms of any evidence of games not finishing, BoK has some words

There was also the first rumblings of slow play starting to bubble up; as top players made it into the deeper rounds, not so much on the skill of play, but on the time of clocks. Worse, one of the slowest and terrible games was streamed on Twitch getting through only turn two. By Saturday, it seemed that any game involving Eldar or Imperial soup could only get to turn three at most in 2.5 hours. Including player options to play into lunches and breaks. By round six the top 20 players I guess had at least half their games not come natural conclusion and ones that did were mostly because of tablings.

I love how that articles account of the semi finals focuses on how both players helped eachother play fast. Completely ignoring that Tony took over an hour for his turn 1. Something he managed to do in just over 20min when confronted with a judge and a stopwatch.

Amazing isn't it?

I am just happy to see we do not have the same dominant race that we did in 7th. Good thing GW did a hard reset that included a memory eraser button...

To be fair, in the last quarter of 7th Renegades and Heretics were on par or out performing Eldar.

Audustum wrote:
To be fair, in the last quarter of 7th Renegades and Heretics were on par or out performing Eldar.

Same thing for incursion daemons.

But by then was anyone playing?

 Tokhuah wrote:
But by then was anyone playing?

Sigmar and 30k.

 Tokhuah wrote:
But by then was anyone playing?

Not me, 7th was turbo dead by then.

 Tokhuah wrote:
But by then was anyone playing?

My entire local stop by then, no one was having fun.

I think the game is evolving from static gunlines to mobile firepower. Eldar is one of the kings of mobile firepower and it's showing. IG was considered king of the game for a while. Now, they aren't even breaking the top 10. You see guardsmen on detachments, but they aren't really doing any heavy lifting. They are just there for the bodies. Even then, they are getting destroyed by Morale losses now. It'll be interesting to see how everything adapts. With all the new codexes coming out, the game shifts around frequently and every one of these big named tournaments had a different outcome. Maybe I missed it, but I've seen a few other tournaments prior to LVO and Eldar did pretty good, but not quite as dominant as LVO. I don't know what changed or if I just happened to miss the army lists.

Hoodwink wrote:
I think the game is evolving from static gunlines to mobile firepower. Eldar is one of the kings of mobile firepower and it's showing. IG was considered king of the game for a while. Now, they aren't even breaking the top 10. You see guardsmen on detachments, but they aren't really doing any heavy lifting. They are just there for the bodies. Even then, they are getting destroyed by Morale losses now. It'll be interesting to see how everything adapts. With all the new codexes coming out, the game shifts around frequently and every one of these big named tournaments had a different outcome. Maybe I missed it, but I've seen a few other tournaments prior to LVO and Eldar did pretty good, but not quite as dominant as LVO. I don't know what changed or if I just happened to miss the army lists.

I don't know. Pure IG are suffering I think due to there being so many Eldar players mostly taking that -1 to hit.
IG firepower is really good. At 2/3rds effectiveness however it starts moving back towards the middle of the road and most other shooting armies are completely screwed. The Eldar player meanwhile can fight with no reduced effectiveness, and can pick his targets (and score objectives) largely at will.

Combining Alaitoc's great defensive abilities with Eldar Psychic buffs and Ynnari's offensive power unsurprisingly makes a great list. Throw in the fact Reapers are under costed and you have the meta.

I can see the criticism. Its rules, stacked on rules, stacked on rules. Precisely - imo anyway - what they said they were trying to get away from in 8th. But here we are.

On games taking too long... I think its bad sportsmanship if people slow roll. I agree though games cannot just run on and on and I don't think it happens that often.
Really it just encourages lists which can deep strike or otherwise move fast and do damage to quickly put points on the board. Which is largely where the Meta is right now anyway.

7E never really died in my area prior to 8E. But my area is luckily short on TFG. About 90-95% of the guys at my LGS are super chill.
My meta is mostly "beer and pretzels".
There are some harder lists that make it to our monthly tourneys, but in general the guys playing them are not TFG.

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 Galef wrote:
7E never really died in my area prior to 8E. But my area is luckily short on TFG. About 90-95% of the guys at my LGS are super chill.
My meta is mostly "beer and pretzels".
There are some harder lists that make it to our monthly tourneys, but in general the guys playing them are not TFG.

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You have some really cool Eldar on your site. Checking now



My local meta is cancer tournament lists. My goal is mostly to show up with a pretty army and go 1-2 but have fun doing it

 Stevefamine wrote:

 Galef wrote:
7E never really died in my area prior to 8E. But my area is luckily short on TFG. About 90-95% of the guys at my LGS are super chill.
My meta is mostly "beer and pretzels".
There are some harder lists that make it to our monthly tourneys, but in general the guys playing them are not TFG.

-

You have some really cool Eldar on your site. Checking now

My local meta is cancer tournament lists. My goal is mostly to show up with a pretty army and go 1-2 but have fun doing it

Thanx.
Every now and then someone brings a bunch of Forge World stuff or spams Riptides/the new hottness, but those lists surprisingly don't win consistently in my meta.
I think because players in my area are more concerned with playing what they want, rather than what the internet says is good, it creates a weird counter to some of the "meta" choices

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