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-1AP is hardly useless;

Sure, in comparison to other traits, it might seem lacking - but having army wide "ignores cover" is at minimum equal to -1 AP, which is great.

"But my opponent isn't using cover"

Good, their saves are that much worse. Against more elite armies/powered armor armies, they're much more likely to use cover - which doesn't matter with IF troops on the table.

I don't know, I like it. I understand that other traits more be stronger, directly or indirectly, but I still think it's not a bad one.

Yeah im pretty sure a good chunk of folks in this thread arent saying the ignore cover is bad at all.

i think most of us are just cheesed at the second part of it.

anti forts is kinda meh. its basically unneeded. and probably would of served better as a stratagem for cities of death.

ignore cover is pretty dang good on its own though so its pretty moot to me.

pismakron wrote:
The reroll to wound against buildings is pretty useless. The ignore the benefits of cover can be useless or very strong depending on opponent.

Agree on the first part, disagree on the second.

It's up to you to to take advantage of the bonuses they give you, which should promote a fluffy playstyle. Rather then taking low volume high strength weapons take the opposite. Heavy bolters have a decent range, and can still do a fair amount of damage to tanks if you buff a squad of havocs. They are also cheap, 1 Las and 2 Dakka Preds have the potential to do most or all the shooting you need for your army, and they can be healed via a Warpsmith.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The reroll to wound against buildings is pretty useless. The ignore the benefits of cover can be useless or very strong depending on opponent.

Agree on the first part, disagree on the second.

It's up to you to to take advantage of the bonuses they give you, which should promote a fluffy playstyle. Rather then taking low volume high strength weapons take the opposite. Heavy bolters have a decent range, and can still do a fair amount of damage to tanks if you buff a squad of havocs. They are also cheap, 1 Las and 2 Dakka Preds have the potential to do most or all the shooting you need for your army, and they can be healed via a Warpsmith.

I think he's more focusing on how rare it is for people to TAKE forts. which is true eneugh in a lot of meta forts just aren't that useful

If I could take Guilliman and an army trait of choice - it would be the imperial fist tactic. Space marines in general got hosed with their army traits only applying to their infantry bikers and dreads though - I mean...I don't think you'd be complaining much about ignore cover las preds or storm ravens would you? OFC not.

 Xenomancers wrote:
If I could take Guilliman and an army trait of choice - it would be the imperial fist tactic. Space marines in general got hosed with their army traits only applying to their infantry bikers and dreads though - I mean...I don't think you'd be complaining much about ignore cover las preds or storm ravens would you? OFC not.

I dunno the UM ones pretty strong but it only comes up if some one attempts to charge you. it basically denys the charge and squat tactic to prevent units from firing.
RG is super strong but their strat is stronger.
Sally can be freakishly strong when you build around it.
Ih..... aww

White scars... eh.

Both terrain rules and fortifications are still in their Index release power level. Just as armies get fleshed out and more powerful when their codexes are released, the same will be true of terrain and fortifications. And Imperial Fists will have an advantage over both of them.

Are those nurgle trees fortifications?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

pismakron wrote:
The reroll to wound against buildings is pretty useless. The ignore the benefits of cover can be useless or very strong depending on opponent.

Agree on the first part, disagree on the second.

It's up to you to to take advantage of the bonuses they give you, which should promote a fluffy playstyle. Rather then taking low volume high strength weapons take the opposite. Heavy bolters have a decent range, and can still do a fair amount of damage to tanks if you buff a squad of havocs. They are also cheap, 1 Las and 2 Dakka Preds have the potential to do most or all the shooting you need for your army, and they can be healed via a Warpsmith.

I think predators are pretty overrated. But apart from that, you can only take advantage of ignore cover if your opponent utilises cover. Some lists are heavily dependent on cover, whereas others don't need it at all. Eldar, Tau and Primaris armies always has some pretty juicy targets in cover, and Imperial Fist would often be a good chapter against those. But if you run into, say, a hive-tyrant deep-striking list, or a green tide, or that stupid triple baneblade list, then ignore cover would be pretty useless.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
Are those nurgle trees fortifications?

Yes, they are fortifications, but they do not have the building keyword, so Imperial Fists chapter tactic does not help directly against it. On the other hand, Feculent Gnarlmaws grants +2 cover to all Nurgle Demons within 7", and this is indeed nullified by the Imperial Fist chapter tactic.

pismakron wrote:
Yes, they are fortifications, but they do not have the building keyword, so Imperial Fists chapter tactic does not help directly against it. On the other hand, Feculent Gnarlmaws grants +2 cover to all Nurgle Demons within 7", and this is indeed nullified by the Imperial Fist chapter tactic.

You'll want to nullify it, for sure, Obliterators saving against Lascannons on a 3+ is no joke.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
and they can be healed via a Warpsmith.

HERESY! CLOSET CHAOS SPACE MARINES!

How the times change. People used to take White Scars to get 'no cover' relic on ONE unit. Now whole army with that supposedly sucks...

While not exactly the competitive choice, I would rate it as an appropriately fluffy ruleset.

Rules should add flavor to your army, and while it doesn't make the IF the best army ever, the rules at least makes them feel more like Imperial Fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:
How the times change. People used to take White Scars to get 'no cover' relic on ONE unit. Now whole army with that supposedly sucks...

It's probably because in 8th it's harder to claim cover, especially for vehicles, than it was in 6th and 7th.

I think IF was the best example of a fluff rule and really wished more factions and chapters had then rather than the copy past crap we have got all edition. I think if every faction had a unique fullfy option that added a different way of playing rather than a bonus then you wouldn't have Yellow and Green Ultramarines right now.

 lolman1c wrote:
I think IF was the best example of a fluff rule and really wished more factions and chapters had then rather than the copy past crap we have got all edition. I think if every faction had a unique fullfy option that added a different way of playing rather than a bonus then you wouldn't have Yellow and Green Ultramarines right now.

I agree with this. I’m an IF player and I’m fine with the chapter tactic. I must say I’d prefer a more standardised “pattern”. E.g. say for each chapter we’ll ignore (or reduce effectiveness) on a mechanic army wide, and on the warlord trait we’ll buff a unit/weapon used in a particular configuration (or swap those things).

E.g.
IF chapter tactic: ignore/reduce cover
IF warlord trait: hurt buildings more, Bolter drill
Salamanders tactic: I dunno, something something dragon skin invulnerable saves? Take less damage from blasts?
Salamanders warlord trait: something something flame weapons
Iron Hands chapter tactic: I’m a robot FNP?
Iron Hands warlord trait: Vehicles do more damage somehow

Etc

Ad Mech get a 6++ for having Bionics (unless they have a better save that is), so Iron Hands could reasonably get something similar. If I were to give their warlord trait anything perhaps it'd be to allow Iron Hands within 6" ignore penalties for moving with heavy weapons (and not restrict vehicles from the benefit).

I feel the place Imperial Fists get a little shafted is that they're such a shooty/defensive chapter but their only character has this weird need to bust people upside the head with his thunder fist-hammer.

 Irbis wrote:
How the times change. People used to take White Scars to get 'no cover' relic on ONE unit. Now whole army with that supposedly sucks...

Cover isn't a big deal in 8th.

fe40k wrote:
-1AP is hardly useless;

Sure, in comparison to other traits, it might seem lacking - but having army wide "ignores cover" is at minimum equal to -1 AP, which is great.

"But my opponent isn't using cover"

Good, their saves are that much worse. Against more elite armies/powered armor armies, they're much more likely to use cover - which doesn't matter with IF troops on the table.

I don't know, I like it. I understand that other traits more be stronger, directly or indirectly, but I still think it's not a bad one.

Of course 8th ed rules being what they are it's bloody hard to HAVE cover. Especially vehicles. Peaking behind building? Nothing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Irbis wrote:
How the times change. People used to take White Scars to get 'no cover' relic on ONE unit. Now whole army with that supposedly sucks...

When cover bonus is less useful in general AND harder to get no surprises.

It's too bad the Imperial Fists are so meh in 40K. In 30K, they have awesome Legion rules and a great Rite of War. Dorn himself isn't too bad in combat. He is a Primarch after all. He also has a sweet customized Thunderhawk Gunship... if you're willing to shell out £450 ...

With the way cover functions these days, a -1 AP isn't that greet. There are already a lot of weapons that are at least -1 AP.

 Tamwulf wrote:
It's too bad the Imperial Fists are so meh in 40K. In 30K, they have awesome Legion rules and a great Rite of War. Dorn himself isn't too bad in combat. He is a Primarch after all. He also has a sweet customized Thunderhawk Gunship... if you're willing to shell out £450 ...

With the way cover functions these days, a -1 AP isn't that greet. There are already a lot of weapons that are at least -1 AP.

But when it does it does take away 16% or more of a chance at a pass save.

nurgles fart trees hand out cover as well and they are already tough on top of that.

cover really does depend on the table you play on so if your group has nothing but barron waste lands then yeah imp fist will be mostly useless. but say you have Maximum terrain then it may be cover saves for days.

its also nice for those occasion scouts types with camo cloaks.