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pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?

Well I am right in that they are sent their to learn politics so what if I said nearly all instead of many. At least I am debating about a book I actually read. I never said the wolfblade was created for that, I said it was used for that. I said prospective captains were sent their to learn politics, not the kind of thing someone who is not politically inclined to do. Then you were arguing against that even though you've never read Wolfblade, it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?

The Imperium is run that way RIGHT NOW. It's called Heresy. If you don't do what the Imperium tells you to do at best you get BLAM!ed and at worst you get locked in a room with creepy psykers who will tear your mind apart to see every person you have interacted with so they can be killed as well so ensure that your heresy hasn't spread.

"And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?"





Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.

 Lance845 wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?

The Imperium is run that way RIGHT NOW. It's called Heresy. If you don't do what the Imperium tells you to do at best you get BLAM!ed and at worst you get locked in a room with creepy psykers who will tear your mind apart to see every person you have interacted with so they can be killed as well so ensure that your heresy hasn't spread.

The Imperium has that stick, but it also has the carrot of promised material aid from the rest of the Imperium, wealth and power for those that cooperate, and also the promise of an afterlife with the Emperor. No society runs on sticks with no carrots.

While all the Primarchs were intelligent, enough to unify their own societies, their nature and interests steered their focus, and many of them seemed to leave secular administration as an afterthought, beyond ensuring resources were available to supply their war machine and whatever their particular pet interests were.

The argument is going in the wrong direction. I said that Russ is one of the least effective in being a statement and that is why I wanted him to come back because its more interesting. We seem to have moved the argument to debating whether he 'could'.

Iracundus wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
He'd be forced because any of the Primarchs would be. Do you think they'll come back and say 'I don't care about the Imperium so I'll just go play soldier' I don't think so. Most of the Primarchs have had to accept their position because there were those better suited for different situations. Remember that all apart from Angron, became leaders in their homeworlds and took over from autocratic regimes. Russ may not be as good at it as Girlyman but he's better at it than any human.

Again, so what about what happened to Vulkan?

He didn't even reveal himself to his own Chapter - he just went ahead and "played soldier" until he vanished.

What about Russ makes him a better leader than the High Lords? He's a better warleader, sure, but as a politician, he's not remarkable.

Turn that into a story element. Russ isn't going to fuss around politicking he's going to tell people what to do and they'll do it because Russ can literally throw them through a wall. The High Lords probably wouldn't like that and there's a story.

And that's no way to run the Imperium. He cannot threaten everyone everywhere simultaneously, and unless he can give people an incentive to do things other than the threat of avoiding immediate lethal violence, then he will just be a petty dictator writ large, with a zone of control that extends no further than his immediate vicinity. Obedience would be grudging and initiative would be lacking. The other Primarchs were similar. Warlords, yes, great administrators, not really.

Guilliman's particular talents lay around logistics and administration on a large scale. That is why he manged to piece together a mini-empire of 500 worlds, the largest realm forged by any of the Primarchs. Sure, all the other Primarchs unified their worlds, but on the 40K scale that is relatively small scale, and their regimes were often the equivalent of a petty dictator or warlord on Earth today. They were ruled by the charisma and might of the leader, rather than the organization having independent robustness.

Of all the Primarchs, Guilliman was the best one for GW to bring back, as attempting to reform the vast institutions of the Imperium (as opposed to just browbeating them into just obeying the immediate order) is something that requires his particular talents. In Dark Imperium he is depicted as planning calendrical reform, as by his calculations the recorded date had drifted significantly. Does anyone seriously picture Russ sitting down and doing something as finicky as that?

Can I have a quote or something about Guilliman making a mini empire? What I read was pretty clear on the fact that Maccrage had got through the Age of Strife pretty well and had decent connections and industry well before Guilliman arrived. He didn't make a great society or anything he inherited it. Fulgrim is a much better example of remaking a world from what I know.

I never said he was making a mini-smpire, I said he was a mini-emperor.

I was referring to what Iracundus said. I could have been clearer about that.

Honestly he should have died when he went 1 on 1 versus Daemon Magnus. Dude has a golden horseshoe up his ass.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.

Which is ofc true, but he usually put all his intelligence into warfare. Why would he care one fig about politics or reforms beyond what's needed for him to get a few crusades to lead into glorious combat? The High Lords would be happy to name him Imperial Warmaster and supply him troops just to keep him out of the way, and he'd be happy to go out and make war on whatever faction irritates him the most this week.

But granted, he IS smart - he would probably be able to pick out good people (for him) to run things he's not interested in. Russ returning could have brought in a whole host of interesting support characters doing the boring stuff.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.

Which is ofc true, but he usually put all his intelligence into warfare. Why would he care one fig about politics or reforms beyond what's needed for him to get a few crusades to lead into glorious combat? The High Lords would be happy to name him Imperial Warmaster and supply him troops just to keep him out of the way, and he'd be happy to go out and make war on whatever faction irritates him the most this week.

But granted, he IS smart - he would probably be able to pick out good people (for him) to run things he's not interested in. Russ returning could have brought in a whole host of interesting support characters doing the boring stuff.

I don't know. Russ was pretty easily controlled by the forces of chaos. Not really the greatest guy to be in charge of the imperium.

Vulkan or Corax(out of the guys who probably-maybe aren't dead) would have made interesting stories though.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Well I am right in that they are sent their to learn politics so what if I said nearly all instead of many. At least I am debating about a book I actually read. I never said the wolfblade was created for that, I said it was used for that. I said prospective captains were sent their to learn politics, not the kind of thing someone who is not politically inclined to do. Then you were arguing against that even though you've never read Wolfblade, it seems you are just arguing for the sake of it.

You're taking this away from my point. If anyone's "arguing for the sake of it", I'd argue it's not me.

You're incorrect in your first statement. They're NOT sent there to learn politics, except for a minority who are singled out for leadership. The PRIMARY intended function of the Wolfblade is to bodyguard the Navigator House. That's the reason Russ created it - not to teach his commanders politics. In fact, I don't think there's a single instance of Russ sending a captain out for political training - it seems like a decision made post-Russ. Unless you can prove that.

Again, attacking me (not the argument) for apparently not reading a book? And you can 100% say I haven't because... how?
If I have read it, that dismantles this attack on me.
If I haven't, then I've already shown you up by correcting you on a quote you tried to prove yourself correct with.

And no, I have read it. It's just been a while, and I didn't take it with me when I travelled.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Russ isn't some mindless barbarian, anyone who has read Space Wolves lore knows that is just a complete front. Russ is very intelligent.

Intelligent enough to burn Prospero?

I'm not saying he's stupid, but a thinker or strategiser like Guilliman or the Lion he ain't. And that's the kind of thinker you need to run an empire. Not a hunter/lapdog/executioner.

Again, you haven't dealt with my Vulkan argument.

pm713 wrote:Can I have a quote or something about Guilliman making a mini empire? What I read was pretty clear on the fact that Maccrage had got through the Age of Strife pretty well and had decent connections and industry well before Guilliman arrived. He didn't make a great society or anything he inherited it. Fulgrim is a much better example of remaking a world from what I know.

Are you referring to the Imperium Secundus? The Five Hundred Worlds? In the 5th edition Codex, it makes reference to Guilliman overthrowing Gallan (the guy who murdered his father) and converting Macragge into a meritocracy, which is a marked improvement.
Again, Guilliman didn't create so much of a drastic change as Fulgrim did, but his end result was better than any other Primarch's - the Emperor did make a particular note of Guilliman's skill in governship.

pm713 wrote:
There are five living Primarchs.

Care to cite your source on that, dude? Assuming you're referring to loyalist Primarchs, the only two who was confirmed as dead were Ferrus Manus & Sanguinius, leaving seven with no body seen on screen - Guilliman has been confirmed as slowly healing since the 2nd ed Codex: Ultramarines, at the very least.

 Dysartes wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There are five living Primarchs.

Care to cite your source on that, dude? Assuming you're referring to loyalist Primarchs, the only two who was confirmed as dead were Ferrus Manus & Sanguinius, leaving seven with no body seen on screen - Guilliman has been confirmed as slowly healing since the 2nd ed Codex: Ultramarines, at the very least.

Assuming they only mean Loyalist, then this is my take.

Guilliman - very much alive, albeit supported.
Russ - MIA in the Warp. Probably alive.
Lion - In the Rock, alive.
Vulkan - Was alive at the time of the Beast. Seeing as he's still Perpetual (I think), probably alive but MIA.
Dorn - MIA, assumed dead.
Khan - MIA, assumed alive.
Corax - MIA, assumed alive.

The only one who's more likely dead than alive is Dorn. The rest are probably alive, in various states of wellness.

They are sent there to learn politics, jesus you haven't even read the bloody book. You are complete wrong. I said prospective captains, so people who are earmarked for leadership . You are grasping at straws so that you aren't wrong. I never said Russ created the Wolfblade for that reason. I said he used it for educating his warriors earmarked for leadership and now you are using the strawman to say I said thats why he created it, because I proved you wrong in that, it is used to educate Russ' warriors. I can 100% say you didn't read the book because the main reason for the book is for Ragnar to learn politics. You'd know his accomplishments as a bloodclaw; Grimnar used his punishment as going to the Wolfblade to ease the other captains and to use it for educating him. You have not read the book. You forget things in books and make mistakes about certain things but you don't get the main plot of the book wrong. Okay how did Ragnar kill the assassin? What did Horgar constantly do, what did he look like and why, what was his weapon of choice and how did he fight? What did Torin look like. Why was it hard to protect Gabriella Belisarius in the end and why was her enemy trying to kill her? And the wolfblade were created during the great crusade which you'd also know.

I tend to rely on the comic-book approach to death - unless the corpse is shown (or, in the case of a novel, described), assume the character isn't dead yet...

 Dysartes wrote:
I tend to rely on the comic-book approach to death - unless the corpse is shown (or, in the case of a novel, described), assume the character isn't dead yet...

Even then, that corpse needs to be dismembered and DNA tested.

And then there could always be a clone.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
They are sent there to learn politics, jesus you haven't even read the bloody book. You are complete wrong. I said prospective captains, so people who are earmarked for leadership . You are grasping at straws so that you aren't wrong. I never said Russ created the Wolfblade for that reason. I said he used it for educating his warriors earmarked for leadership and now you are using the strawman to say I said thats why he created it, because I proved you wrong in that, it is used to educate Russ' warriors. I can 100% say you didn't read the book because the main reason for the book is for Ragnar to learn politics. You'd know his accomplishments as a bloodclaw; Grimnar used his punishment as going to the Wolfblade to ease the other captains and to use it for educating him. You have not read the book. You forget things in books and make mistakes about certain things but you don't get the main plot of the book wrong. Okay how did Ragnar kill the assassin? What did Horgar constantly do, what did he look like and why, what was his weapon of choice and how did he fight? What did Torin look like. Why was it hard to protect Gabriella Belisarius in the end and why was her enemy trying to kill her? And the wolfblade were created during the great crusade which you'd also know.

Look, you're focusing so hard on this one point, would you like to debate it in PMs? You're clearly ignoring the rest of my argument and focusing on this one thing which is, at best, an auxiliary point to support Russ being politically minded.

I'm not going to respond to this in this thread. I'm happy to reply elsewhere. PM me if you want me to respond, please.

I dealt with your Vulken argument, We don't know what Vulken is doing at the moment, so just that He's not involved in Imperium politics does not mean that the Primarchs not politically inclined are not going to come back and lead the Imperium, Its not a valid argument so I haven't bothered dealing with it. If he cared about his warriors being politically minded then he is obviously thought enough about politics himself, he never had an empire to look over like Girlyman, so we don't know about his capability but you are ignoring the fact that I began my argument by saying that he wasn't politically minded, you are so argumentative that you said he wasn't at all, which there is no evidence for that whatsoever. You want to PM me because I'm pointing out that you are debating a book that you haven't read. There is no reason to PM. I have been debating because its fun but you are so argumentative for the sake of argumentativeness and not being proven wrong. You'd argue the colour of gak.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
The Lion, Russ, Corax or Dorn would have been far more interesting plot wise.

I think Guilliman coming back first will make the Lion's return more interesting than it would be otherwise. If the Lion comes back first he just... does what Guilliman is doing, basically, if he comes back second he gets the opportunity to question if this is Imperium Secundus 2.0.

 Delvarus Centurion wrote:
I dealt with your Vulken argument, We don't know what Vulken is doing at the moment, so just that He's not involved in Imperium politics does not mean that the Primarchs not politically inclined are not going to come back and lead the Imperium, Its not a valid argument so I haven't bothered dealing with it. If he cared about his warriors being politically minded then he is obviously thought enough about politics himself, he never had an empire to look over like Girlyman, so we don't know about his capability but you are ignoring the fact that I began my argument by saying that he wasn't politically minded, you are so argumentative that you said he wasn't at all, which there is no evidence for that whatsoever. You want to PM me because I'm pointing out that you are debating a book that you haven't read. There is no reason to PM. I have been debating because its fun but you are so argumentative for the sake of argumentativeness and not being proven wrong. You'd argue the colour of gak.

Seriously, this is getting close to a personal attack, and definitely off topic.

PM, if you want to carry on about Wolfblade. I'm saying no more of it.

I don't think you have argued your Vulkan point - the last thing either of us said was this exchange:

That you don't know what Vulken is doing refutes your point.

Sorry, what?
How does that make any sense?

We KNOW Vulkan isn't leading the Imperium. That;s because Guilliman is. We know Vulkan never led the Imperium, ever when he was the only returned Primarch. Hell, he deferred authority to an Imperial Fist CAPTAIN. It's absolutely likely that certain Primarchs wouldn't take up the leadership mantle, and Russ doesn't seem like he'd WANT to rule any more than his own Chapter.

As we see, you haven't made any attempt to refute my point. Unless you do concede it, which is fair enough.
The Vulkan point relies on the logic that even though Vulkan returned, he made no attempt to deal in the Imperium politically. None. He deferred it to a normal Space Marine. If that's the case, it creates precedence for Primarchs to be in the Imperium but not rule it - as I claimed for Russ.

So, back on topic - I don't believe Russ would engage in the politics of Terra. Why?
Because it's feasible for Primarchs to simply not do that (see, Vulkan)
Because Russ has had no actual political leanings (being smart doesn't make one a politician)
Because Russ' first action would most likely be to hunt down Magnus with as many Space Wolves as he could muster.

As a story, that sounds very dull and samey - another "Wrath of Magnus" type, yay. Nothing will change narratively, I would bet, aside from maybe the Planet of the Sorcerors being destroyed and Magnus flying away screaming "I'll get you next tiiiiiiiiime!" Again, mostly my opinion, so absolutely not fact, and certainly just a hypothesis on the actual events, but I personally believe that Guilliman's has given us more to chew on than nearly any other Primarch, barring Lion.

Where is Vulkan then? He even said his return would be temporary, so we don't know what he is doing now, it might be more important than leading the Imperium, which is why I keep saying, We don't know what he is doing, until we do you can't say he just refuses to lead the Imperium. He said he'd never let Caldera fall into flame again so its fair to say he keeps coming back to save it, for that point only. Unless you know what he is doing up to now your point is moot, it is probable but now factual. Again the onus is on you to prove that Russ is not able as a statesmen, I've given you an example but your argument is based on opinion, you think he isn't capable or that he just doesn't want to, both points are easily refutable if you know what Primarchs are capable of, (except for Angron but he has always been broken) and loyalist Primarchs sense of duty As for his intelligence, I was replying to someone else and only to point out that he wasn't a barbarian bit Russ was without doubt wise. Also Girlyman didn't come back and say I'll lead, It was the Emperor that told him what to do, when he was given the Emps sword. Vulkan only ever came back to fight, he didn't even know the extent of the Imperiums decline.

after the emperor died Gulliman was made de facto leader of the IoM, none of the other primarchs where involved, OR stepped up after Gulliman "died" we can conclude that most wheren't intreasted

We can conclude that or we conclude that they left it to the person best fitted for that role or that they were accepting that he was 'made' the de jure (not de facto) leader

So head's up, the lot of this is spoilers for dark imperium and how it was a far better book than this site gives it credit, and how it's characters are being blatantly misrepresented. Go read it, only space marine centric book to keep my attention in since heresy started hard covers. Or at least don't complain that I'm spoiling things in my post, you've been warned.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:
Guilliman is so important he warps the setting around him. He's brought back by xenos and is making massive changes to the Imperium but that's okay because the Emperor has outright backed him and made him acting-Emperor.

And in so stripping Gulli of any illusions he had of a father son relationship, saddling one of twenty generals with the job of being emperor, and he picked one of the ones who's aware he may not be able to manage it.

Any interesting conflict about him returning has been shut down because the Emperor has said to follow him. It's so disappointing.

Which is clearly why they're taking over a hundred years to effectively re-conquer the 500 world of Ultimar that more or less belong to him anyway.

The most anyone can do is secretly resist what he's trying to do.

And by secretly resist, you mean full scale war and indepenence movements up his own ass due to the duress his wars have placed on the common citizen.

Not to mention the galaxy getting split in half, all this talk about how difficult it is to cross the Great Scar, and then he just does so on his big crusade at least twice and swings back to Ultramar in time to defend it.

By some real interesting definitions of in time, but if anything is going to make it across the great scar would it not be a crusade lead by a Primarch?


If you actually read this stuff, not much has changed. The imperium is still screwed up, much of it in worse ways than it was before, things aren't much better for the common person or soldier, all that's happening slightly better is the imperial military response and planning. There are seeds of doubt and disagreement sown with every action he's taken. There are massive risks to trusting Cawl. Half the galaxy is now a demon's playground, and two demon primarchs are back screwing with him because they find it funny.

Dark Imperium features better written primarchs than most of the first half of the published heresy books. And I limit it to there because scars seems quite good after picking it up after Dark Imperium rekindled my interest.

Bull, the HH early Primarch's were written brilliantly, lots of character flaws etc. Girlyman in Dark Imperium was posed as Mary Sue in comparison to the early representations. I liked the parts of his realisation that the Emperor only treats the Primarchs as weapons and his enmity with the Emperor, his failure leaving Ultramar to humans to rule etc. But yet again GW have set him and the ultramarines up as being not only no.1 but Girlyman is now head of the Imperium etc. Its so contrived its not funny. Matt Ward is literally fapping. They could have done it so much better, they could of brought Dorn and Girlyman back and see them fighting for control, they could have had Russ or the Lion to lead and see them struggling to lead, but no, they did the most pedestrian and predictable poster boys thing. Just so boring. Its one reason I don't collect loyalists. Chaos is far more interesting.

I suggest you go back and reread the first books. I loved them when they came out and now, well they are somewhat lacking and humorous in their portrayals.

Well they would be humorous before the heresy, Dorn was depicted as a rage hound, constantly angry to the point of not seeing sense, Fulgrim obsessed with perfection so much that he felt like a failure all the time, The Lion and his treatment of Zaherial There were few books at the beginning that were designated to Primarchs though, I liked them all, granted I read them more than 10 years ago but I have fond memories of them.

Delvarus Centurion wrote:Where is Vulkan then? He even said his return would be temporary, so we don't know what he is doing now, it might be more important than leading the Imperium, which is why I keep saying, We don't know what he is doing, until we do you can't say he just refuses to lead the Imperium. He said he'd never let Caldera fall into flame again so its fair to say he keeps coming back to save it, for that point only. Unless you know what he is doing up to now your point is moot, it is probable but now factual.

Yeah, we don't know what he's doing right now. I'm not saying that he "couldn't" be doing something more important, but there's no way to actually prove or even speculate that.

I'd just like to say, when I refer to Vulkan refusing to lead the Imperium, I am talking about the War of the Beast. Obviously if he's MIA, he can't be included. However, due to the fact that he didn''t lead the IoM when he had the chance, that's my point proven.

I'm not talking about M42 - no-one knows what he's doing, so your point is moot as well due to lack of evidence. My point is talking about when we did know what he was doing, and it wasn't leading the IoM.

Again the onus is on you to prove that Russ is not able as a statesmen, I've given you an example but your argument is based on opinion, you think he isn't capable or that he just doesn't want to, both points are easily refutable if you know what Primarchs are capable of, (except for Angron but he has always been broken) and loyalist Primarchs sense of duty

I don't think that's how proving things works.

If you want to assume that something IS capable of XYZ, you need to prove that. Otherwise, I can claim that Trazyn is the God-Emperor, and the onus is on you to prove that. That makes no sense. Seeing as you're the one assigning virtues to Russ, the onus is on you.

Your example of the wolfblade isn't applicable - that wasn't formed as a method of political training, as I said. It was a bodyguard contract which happened to have the side effect of giving certain Space Wolves a better grasp of politics. Russ didn't form that as it's primary intention.

So, logically, where would Russ be a good politician? He lives on Fenris, a world based on tribal rule and rule of strength. Politics aren't a massive part of that life. As we also know, not all Primarchs were gifted politicians - in fact, most were not regarded as such.

Lion - not at all. Not a people person, and certainly not a diplomat.
Fulgrim - probably a very good one.
Perturabo - Probably not. Perty wasn't very people-y.
Khan - The Khan was very arrogant, and outright ignored most of what the munitorum said to him. He also hated being centralised.
Russ - As I said, Russ wasn't brought up as a diplomat. His words were with his howls.
Dorn - Based on Terra so much, very likely political.
Kurze - Certainly not.
Sanguinius - Considering he was second pick for Warmaster, almost certainly was a good one.
Ferrus - Not really sure. He wasn't really much of a human person though, so his political nature be questionable.
Angron - No way.
Guilliman - Probably one the best actual statesmen in 40k.
Mortarion - Given his upbringing, doubtful.
Magnus - Given his education and nature, most likely a very solid politician.
Horus - There's a reason he was Warmaster. Definitely a good one.
Lorgar - Probably quite a solid one.
Vulkan - Well, he didn't come back during the War of the Beast, Not political.
Corax - Politics isn't really his thing.
Alpharius - Neither is it this pair's thing.

That's a majority of non-political Primarchs - certainly wouldn't be out of place for Russ to be non-political. Most of a Primarch's political clout came from them exuding an aura of majesty that swayed most mortals to them. However, HLOT are barely affected by this kind of awe, rendering it moot.

Vulkan only ever came back to fight, he didn't even know the extent of the Imperiums decline.

And Russ wouldn't do the same? Vulkan didn't even lead the actual military force - again, he took on NO leadership, both political and militarily.