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2018/02/15 23:34:10
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Luciferian wrote: That doesn't cover it, though. Sorry, I'm going to break the rules, but President Obama had the CDC conduct a study on gun violence toward the end of his administration. In any case, the CDC isn't the only entity that can do such research.
Well, as much as I'd like to go into that with you,
Spoiler:
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
2018/02/15 23:49:01
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Luciferian wrote: That doesn't cover it, though. Sorry, I'm going to break the rules, but President Obama had the CDC conduct a study on gun violence toward the end of his administration. In any case, the CDC isn't the only entity that can do such research.
Well, as much as I'd like to go into that with you,
Spoiler:
Man, US Politics seems so alluring at first, but then you go off to college and it just dawns on you how unbearably bipolar it was. Then you spend some time at college and meet exotic new foreign politics threads!
Maybe the "white supremacist" was as accurate as "DACA recipient"
“We are still doing some work, but we have no known ties between the ROF, Jordan Jereb or the Broward shooter,” a Leon County Sheriff’s Office spokesman told the Tallahassee Democrat. The sheriff’s office has arrested Jereb at least four times since January 2014 and has been monitoring ROF’s membership, The Associated Press reported.
By Thursday evening, Jereb appeared to be backing down from his claim.
“There was a misunderstanding because we have MULTIPLE people named Nicholas in ROF,” a user named @JordanJereb posted on Gab, a social media platform popular among fascists and racists. “Are you really going to blame ME for the lying jew media? We know they are liars. feth em,” the user wrote. (HuffPost messaged the user, who had posted about ROF months before Wednesday’s shooting, but was not immediately able to confirm his identity.)
HuffPost has not found evidence that Cruz was affiliated with ROF — or that he had even interacted with anyone in the group. Jereb did not respond to repeated requests for proof of Cruz’s involvement with ROF. Cruz’s Facebook and Instagram were taken down after the shooting. On one of his since-deleted Instagram profiles, Cruz’s Twitter avatar wore a “Make America Great Again” hat and he shared pictures of an assortment of guns and knives.
The FBI and the Broward County Sheriff’s Office, which is investigating the shooting, declined to comment.
The existing reporting on the supposed ties between Jereb and Cruz is inconsistent. Jereb told the Miami Herald he has never personally met Cruz. But ABC reported that three former classmates of Cruz identified him as part of the ROF. The former classmates claimed that Cruz was “often seen with Jereb.” Jereb’s last address listed in public records is in Tallahassee, 430 miles from where the shooting took place. ABC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment on how it verified the identities of Cruz’s former classmates.
A spokesman for the ADL, which first reported the supposed tie between the ROF and Cruz, told HuffPost on Thursday that “it is for law enforcement to 100% confirm that he was a part of this group.”
“Given what we found today and the timing of the case, there is no doubt the information raises a red flag and should be investigated further,” the spokesman said.
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As reports of Cruz’s supposed link to ROF appeared in the media, members of an “alt-right” white supremacist forum claimed the entire story was an attention-grab by Jereb, or possibly a hoax aimed at tricking media outlets into pushing a false narrative.
Jereb already comes across as a caricature of a Florida white nationalist, and he has been seeking attention for his views for years. “Jereb was a weird character even in the extremist underworld to which he so badly wanted to belong,” the Southern Poverty Law Center, which monitors hate groups, wrote in 2014. Most white supremacists avoid the SPLC, but Jereb “wanted desperately to be mentioned in these pages,” the group wrote. “He flooded us with pleas for attention.”
The SPLC has not been able to confirm any ties between Cruz and ROF, Heidi Beirich, the director of the group’s intelligence project, told HuffPost. “It may seem odd that Jereb would bring attention to his group by claiming a connection to Cruz, but Jereb has always been somewhat of a publicity seeker,” Beirich said.
In 2016, Jereb was arrested for allegedly threatening a high-ranking staffer of Florida Gov. Rick Scott (R). The Tallahassee Democrat reported at the time that Jereb was “known to ride a bike through neighborhoods wearing para-military garb. He has filmed numerous run-ins with law enforcement.”
On Thursday afternoon, members of The Right Stuff, a white supremacist forum, claimed that the story of Cruz being tied to ROF was false. “Started out as an inside joke until Jordan Jereb literally told the media that it was true and that he was affiliated with a school shooter,” a TRS user posting under the name “Jordan Fash” wrote.
Fash posted screenshots of an ABC reporter messaging a user named “Ethan” on Instagram asking for information about Cruz. Ethan told the reporter that Cruz was an ROF member. “It was common knowledge he did rallies with ROF, I frequently saw him conversing with Jordan Jereb in person,” the user said.
The ABC reporter declined to comment. ABC didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment on how it reported its story.
It didn’t take long for other far-right extremists to latch onto a possible reporting flub as a way to attack the entirety of the mainstream media. Cameron Padgett, the campus fixer for Richard Spencer’s college speaking engagements, tweeted that the media “will do anything to smear white people.”
In his quotes to the media, Jereb elevated anti-feminist and anti-Semitic views, and claimed that Cruz “probably used that training [with ROF] to do what he did.”
There tends to be an information vacuum after a mass shooting, and trolls and propagandists often take advantage of the confusion in order to promote their own interests. After the shooting at a Texas church last year, right-wing conspiracy theorists were quick to claim that their political enemies — everyone from Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) to anti-fascist protesters — were somehow connected to the shooter. Trolls will also routinely claim that Sam Hyde, a real-life comedian, is behind a mass shooting before the real shooter has been identified. In the immediate aftermath of a shooting, it’s easy for false information to spread rapidly.
In 1999, Bill White, a former leader of the National Socialist Movement, injected himself into the conversation surrounding the Columbine High School massacre by suggesting that shooters Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold might have visited White’s extremist website before the rampage. White, who identified as an anarchist at the time, managed to garner national attention for his obscure website, which urged kids to build bombs, blow up schools and slaughter football players.
Ashley Feinberg contributed reporting.
Do you have information you want to share with HuffPost? Here’s how.
Dana Liebelson Reporter, HuffPost Luke O’Brien Senior Reporter, HuffPost Suggest a correction MORE: Gun Violence School Shootings White Supremacists Extremism
AdChoices TRENDING Officials Haven’t Found Evidence Linking Florida Shooting Suspect To White Supremacists (UPDATE) Trump Says Florida Students Should Have Done More To Prevent Deadly Shooting Amy Schumer Marries Boyfriend Chris Fischer After Just Months Of Dating A Federal Appeals Court Just Said Trump’s Tweets Show He’s An Anti-Muslim Bigot What Trump Will Do To Savings Accounts Sponsored by Bankrate Ryan Reynolds’ Valentine’s Day Gift To Blake Lively Is Just So Him NEWS ON HUFFINGTON POST
nels1031 wrote: Not to downplay the seriousness of the situation or the tragedy in a few of the cases listed below, but I feel we need to put into perspective the "18 school shootings" that has cropped up in this thread a few times:
Spoiler:
A summary :
Twice, someone shot themselves on school grounds; one incident, on January 3, featured a man shooting himself in a former school’s parking lot; on January 10 a teen killed himself in an Arizona elementary school bathroom.
Four times, a bullet was fired through a school or dorm’s window: on January 4, a gunshot was fired at a high school in Seattle through an office window; no one was hurt. On January 10, a shot was fired shattering a California State University classroom window. No injuries were reported. The same day, in Texas, a bullet was accidentally fired through a classroom wall at the Grayson College Criminal Justice Center. No one was injured. On January 15, a bullet traveled through a residential hall’s dorm room. No injuries were reported.
On January 25, a Mobile, Alabama, high school student fired a gun on campus. No one was injured. On January 26, in Dearborn, Michigan, shots were fired from a car in a parking lot; no injuries were reported.
On February 5, in Maplewood, Minnesota, a third-grader pulled the trigger on a cop's gun. No one was injured. On February 8, in New York, a shot was fired inside Metropolitan High School. No one was injured.
Here are the cases where someone was injured other than the shooter:
January 22, Italy, Texas: a teenage girl was wounded by shots from a semi-automatic handgun. The same day, in Gentilly, Louisiana, a 14-year-old boy was injured in a shooting. February 1, Los Angeles, California: five children were injured in an accidental shooting. February 5, Maryland: a teenager was shot and injured outside of a high school.
The fatalities:
January 20, Winston-Salem, North Carolina: A football player was shot and killed. January 23, Benton, Kentucky: Two people were killed and another 15 were shot at Marshall County High School. January 31, a fight broke out at a Pennsylvania high school; a 32-year-old man was shot and later died.
How is that defense of anything? Six weeks in to the year and all that stuff has happened on American school grounds? How can you not see how absurd this is?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldravenman3025 wrote: I stand corrected. However, that very fact would still make him "tainted" in the minds of most white nationalists, particualrly those of a supremacist bent.
Meh. The KKK takes in Catholics these days. The recruiting standards of racists have dipped a lot since the glory days. They're so splintered now, and so desperate for members that any disaffected loon will find some group that'll take him, if he really wants.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldravenman3025 wrote: And don't underestimate the intelligence of these people or groups. That's a recipe for disaster.
True, but note there's a difference between intelligence and coherent thinking. Lots of really crazy factions have their share of intelligent people, in fact intelligence is often needed to come up with creative ways to explain away basic facts about the world.
So its true all at once that many of these people are intelligent, and its also true they believe some staggering dumb, self-contradictory nonsense.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote: Until we get serious about Mental Health in the US, this will continue.
This is the great American myth. That somehow the US is unique in having a flawed mental health system. But mental health sucks everywhere. But gun violence, and particularly mass shootings, are way more common in the US than anywhere else in the developed world.
Somehow despite having crappy mental health systems, we don't have anything close to the same problem with shootings. So why would the US, distinct from the rest of the world because it has so many guns in private hands, also be distinct from the rest of the world in the number of shootings and murders it has. Why is that?
Could it possibly be that maybe, just maybe... having loads of guns everywhere means they tend to get used a lot more? Could that be a thing?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luciferian wrote: What does that mean, though? Where exactly is the problem (or problems) and how do we address them? It's a pretty damn complex issue. Why isn't there research being done on this topic aside from just a gun control vs. gun rights angle? If anyone knows of some I'd love to take a look at it.
Recent budget proposals put up on healthcare proposed significant cuts to mental health. We don't have to talk about the politics of that (indeed we are banned from doing so on this forum), but note one thing from the following debate - there was not one single person anywhere who said 'don't cut mental health because its the problems with mental health that are causing our problems with gun violence'. No-one made that argument, because everyone knows that it's total bs. Mental health is only raised as a way to deflect from the real problem causing the US to have so many shootings.
It's the same reason that, as Ouze notes, research in to gun violence was banned in the mid-90s. Because the reality of what is actually driving the American murder rate is clear, but lots of people don't want to admit it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luciferian wrote: That doesn't cover it, though. Sorry, I'm going to break the rules, but President Obama had the CDC conduct a study on gun violence toward the end of his administration. In any case, the CDC isn't the only entity that can do such research.
First up, it wasn't late in his term, he did it in 2013. Second of all, unfortunately you know the Breitbart version, not the actual version of what happened - Obama lifted the CDC absolute ban on gun violence, he didn't direct any specific research. Congress shot down each research topic proposed by CDC.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2018/02/16 02:50:25
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/02/16 03:14:02
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
nels1031 wrote: Not to downplay the seriousness of the situation or the tragedy in a few of the cases listed below, but I feel we need to put into perspective the "18 school shootings" that has cropped up in this thread a few times:
Spoiler:
A summary :
Twice, someone shot themselves on school grounds; one incident, on January 3, featured a man shooting himself in a former school’s parking lot; on January 10 a teen killed himself in an Arizona elementary school bathroom.
Four times, a bullet was fired through a school or dorm’s window: on January 4, a gunshot was fired at a high school in Seattle through an office window; no one was hurt. On January 10, a shot was fired shattering a California State University classroom window. No injuries were reported. The same day, in Texas, a bullet was accidentally fired through a classroom wall at the Grayson College Criminal Justice Center. No one was injured. On January 15, a bullet traveled through a residential hall’s dorm room. No injuries were reported.
On January 25, a Mobile, Alabama, high school student fired a gun on campus. No one was injured. On January 26, in Dearborn, Michigan, shots were fired from a car in a parking lot; no injuries were reported.
On February 5, in Maplewood, Minnesota, a third-grader pulled the trigger on a cop's gun. No one was injured. On February 8, in New York, a shot was fired inside Metropolitan High School. No one was injured.
Here are the cases where someone was injured other than the shooter:
January 22, Italy, Texas: a teenage girl was wounded by shots from a semi-automatic handgun. The same day, in Gentilly, Louisiana, a 14-year-old boy was injured in a shooting. February 1, Los Angeles, California: five children were injured in an accidental shooting. February 5, Maryland: a teenager was shot and injured outside of a high school.
The fatalities:
January 20, Winston-Salem, North Carolina: A football player was shot and killed. January 23, Benton, Kentucky: Two people were killed and another 15 were shot at Marshall County High School. January 31, a fight broke out at a Pennsylvania high school; a 32-year-old man was shot and later died.
How is that defense of anything? Six weeks in to the year and all that stuff has happened on American school grounds? How can you not see how absurd this is?
It's absurd... but, not in the way you think. Those numbers comes from the anti-gun group Everytown for Gun Safety which uses some dubious methods to pad the numbers. I think the number ought to be *squints at the data* five school shootings this year.
That's bad enough as it is without need to, ahem, stretch the truth a bit... and, it makes these sort of conversation difficult because you're dealing with one side of the argument using embellished figures.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Togusa wrote: Until we get serious about Mental Health in the US, this will continue.
This is the great American myth. That somehow the US is unique in having a flawed mental health system. But mental health sucks everywhere. But gun violence, and particularly mass shootings, are way more common in the US than anywhere else in the developed world.
Somehow despite having crappy mental health systems, we don't have anything close to the same problem with shootings. So why would the US, distinct from the rest of the world because it has so many guns in private hands, also be distinct from the rest of the world in the number of shootings and murders it has. Why is that?
Could it possibly be that maybe, just maybe... having loads of guns everywhere means they tend to get used a lot more? Could that be a thing?
It's a thing... but, please don't harp on it being the only/major reason. If it were so... then, we'd be fethed 10-ways till Sunday with the totally number of firearms per capita.
However, *we* do have major problems with mental health in the US. Both in terms of accessibility (since it's not really a money maker), legal framework and in terms of social stigma.
Just lookup the rules to involuntary commit someone, or even involuntarily *remove* someone's 2nd Amendment right. It's a tall order man...
Better mental health isn't the end-all panacea as this is a complicated issue... but it sure as hell legal need reform/better funding/public acceptance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Luciferian wrote: That doesn't cover it, though. Sorry, I'm going to break the rules, but President Obama had the CDC conduct a study on gun violence toward the end of his administration. In any case, the CDC isn't the only entity that can do such research.
First up, it wasn't late in his term, he did it in 2013. Second of all, unfortunately you know the Breitbart version, not the actual version of what happened - Obama lifted the CDC absolute ban on gun violence, he didn't direct any specific research. Congress shot down each research topic proposed by CDC.
The research very specifically stated more study is needed. But, don't kid yourself... the bulk of the findings didn't fit the desired narrative so it was dropped like it was hawt. Then, I think you're right Congress did pass some rider to prevent further studies by the CDC.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2018/02/16 03:16:54
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for some stricter gun laws in a few select cases, despite being deep red conservative on the majority of issues facing my nation.
Not defending anything, just pointing out that it is spin and uses suspect stats and incidents. It really moves the goal posts of what is and isn't a school shooting. The organization that folks get these stats from has been debunked by the Washington Post quite a few times.
sebster wrote: Six weeks in to the year and all that stuff has happened on American school grounds?
Yep.
But like I said, put them into perspective compared to this mass casualty event. Obviously any number outside of 0 is unacceptable, but using sketchy methodology to track these events and push a narrative that doesn't hold up to just a whiff of scrutiny hurts the cause of people who wish to have a meaningful conversation about how to combat these events.
How can you not see how absurd it is to lump this event into a man killing himself in a school parking lot well after school hours? EDIT: The school in question had been closed down for the better part of the year. Tragic for sure, but there are levels to this, my dude. And very few of the listed incidents come close to the level that people think of when they see the words "school shooting".
Here's another:
A month ago, for example, a group of college students were at a meeting of a criminal-justice club in Texas when a student accidentally fired a real gun, rather than a training weapon. The bullet went through a wall, then a window. Though no one was hurt, it left the student distraught.
Absurd is lumping that in with this incident. Which is part of the "18 school shootings".
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/16 03:30:03
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2018/02/16 03:44:39
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for some stricter gun laws in a few select cases, despite being deep red conservative on the majority of issues facing my nation.
Not defending anything, just pointing out that it is spin and uses suspect stats and incidents. It really moves the goal posts of what is and isn't a school shooting. The organization that folks get these stats from has been debunked by the Washington Post quite a few times.
The spin is from the pro gun guys, the question is simple, was a gun shot at school? yes, ergo it was a school shooting. the goal post moving is when the usual people look at the data and go "well some weren't mass shootings so those don't count"
elementary kids getting ahold of a gun, getting it into a school and killing themselves is a school shooting and indicitive of the problem at hand. Kids getting easy access to weapons.
2018/02/16 03:48:19
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for some stricter gun laws in a few select cases, despite being deep red conservative on the majority of issues facing my nation.
Not defending anything, just pointing out that it is spin and uses suspect stats and incidents. It really moves the goal posts of what is and isn't a school shooting. The organization that folks get these stats from has been debunked by the Washington Post quite a few times.
The spin is from the pro gun guys, the question is simple, was a gun shot at school? yes, ergo it was a school shooting. the goal post moving is when the usual people look at the data and go "well some weren't mass shootings so those don't count"
elementary kids getting ahold of a gun, getting it into a school and killing themselves is a school shooting and indicitive of the problem at hand. Kids getting easy access to weapons.
A dude committing suicide in a parking lot after hours is not a shooting. A negligent discharge is not a shooting. Etc...
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The spin is from the pro gun guys, the question is simple, was a gun shot at school? yes, ergo it was a school shooting.
Nope, thats not even true, as per the article I linked from WashPo, the website that the numbers have been pulled from already removed one of the more dubious "school shootings" that they listed initially in the 18.
Ergo, not 18 school shootings this year. I'd wager more will get removed as their already debunked methodology gets scrutinized more.
Look, its a serious issue, and I get that people get passionate about it, but arguing with skewed facts is disingenuous and a disservice to the victims.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 03:56:46
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2018/02/16 04:00:37
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
whembly wrote: It's absurd... but, not in the way you think. Those numbers comes from the anti-gun group Everytown for Gun Safety which uses some dubious methods to pad the numbers. I think the number ought to be *squints at the data* five school shootings this year.
That's bad enough as it is without need to, ahem, stretch the truth a bit... and, it makes these sort of conversation difficult because you're dealing with one side of the argument using embellished figures.
They were 18 shootings that took place on school grounds. The only stretching of the truth would be by people trying re-invent 'school shooting' to mean something other than 'shooting' at a 'school', in order to drag the number down to 5. But as you note, whether it is 5 or 18, jesus fething christ it is bad.
It's a thing... but, please don't harp on it being the only/major reason. If it were so... then, we'd be fethed 10-ways till Sunday with the totally number of firearms per capita.
Of course it isn't the only thing that causes shootings. But it is the singular thing that causes the difference between US murder rates and murder rates in other developed countries.
However, *we* do have major problems with mental health in the US.
Everyone does mate.
The research very specifically stated more study is needed. But, don't kid yourself... the bulk of the findings didn't fit the desired narrative so it was dropped like it was hawt. Then, I think you're right Congress did pass some rider to prevent further studies by the CDC.
No, the research said no such thing. It was a meta-study of previous research, and its only finding was that previous research was inadequate and couldn't be used in support of any conclusion.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/02/16 04:02:12
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for some stricter gun laws in a few select cases, despite being deep red conservative on the majority of issues facing my nation.
Not defending anything, just pointing out that it is spin and uses suspect stats and incidents. It really moves the goal posts of what is and isn't a school shooting. The organization that folks get these stats from has been debunked by the Washington Post quite a few times.
The spin is from the pro gun guys, the question is simple, was a gun shot at school? yes, ergo it was a school shooting. the goal post moving is when the usual people look at the data and go "well some weren't mass shootings so those don't count"
elementary kids getting ahold of a gun, getting it into a school and killing themselves is a school shooting and indicitive of the problem at hand. Kids getting easy access to weapons.
A dude committing suicide in a parking lot after hours is not a shooting. A negligent discharge is not a shooting. Etc...
so a 3rd grader getting to a cops sidearm and firing off a round isn't a shooting it's just negligent? you've been spinning so long you're obviously dizzy.
What is not in dispute is gun violence’s pervasiveness and its devastating impact on children. A recent study of World Health Organization data published in the American Journal of Medicine that found that, among high-income nations, 91 percent of children younger than 15 who were killed by bullets lived in the United States.
And the trends are only growing more dire.
Those under 15 are getting their guns from those so called "responsible gun owners"
the trend is obvious:
a shooting happens
nothing gets done
more guns get sold
more shootings happens
I still hold all gun owners complicit in every shooting because of their desire to ensure nothing gets done.
The spin is from the pro gun guys, the question is simple, was a gun shot at school? yes, ergo it was a school shooting.
Nope, thats not even true, as per the article I linked from WashPo, the website that the numbers have been pulled from already removed one of the more dubious "school shootings" that they listed initially in the 18.
Ergo, not 18 school shootings this year. I'd wager more will get removed as their already debunked methodology gets scrutinized more.
Look, its a serious issue, and I get that people get passionate about it, but arguing with skewed facts is disingenuous and a disservice to the victims.
the disservice to the victims is 20 years of doing absolutely nothing to prevent them from happening and actually making it easier for people to get more and more deadly weapons and accessories.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 04:04:28
2018/02/16 04:08:32
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
nels1031 wrote: Let me preface this by saying that I'm all for some stricter gun laws in a few select cases, despite being deep red conservative on the majority of issues facing my nation.
Not defending anything, just pointing out that it is spin and uses suspect stats and incidents. It really moves the goal posts of what is and isn't a school shooting.
The real spin comes from people trying to downplay the number, because they don't like the reality of what that number means.
Obviously any number outside of 0 is unacceptable, but using sketchy methodology to track these events and push a narrative that doesn't hold up to just a whiff of scrutiny hurts the cause of people who wish to have a meaningful conversation about how to combat these events.
If Everytown, or anyone using their stat was attempting to claim it was 18 incidents that were all spree killers like in Florida, then sure. But I haven't seen that. And believe me, I've just decided to leave twitter alone for a few days because I'm bored shitless of the leftwing anti-gun tweets that have clogged up my feed, so if anyone was trying to claim that those 18 incidents were all like Florida, I would have seen it.
How can you not see how absurd it is to lump this event into a man killing himself in a school parking lot well after school hours? EDIT: The school in question had been closed down for the better part of the year. Tragic for sure, but there are levels to this, my dude. And very few of the listed incidents come close to the level that people think of when they see the words "school shooting".
The school was closed down, so this one I'll grant you. So we're down to 17 school shootings in just over 6 weeks.
A month ago, for example, a group of college students were at a meeting of a criminal-justice club in Texas when a student accidentally fired a real gun, rather than a training weapon. The bullet went through a wall, then a window. Though no one was hurt, it left the student distraught.
Of course that belongs in the list. Accidental weapons discharge is not fething okay, and it could have killed someone. A bullet went flying through a wall and out a window. Of course it belongs on the list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 04:09:24
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/02/16 04:15:53
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
The school was closed down, so this one I'll grant you. So we're down to 17 school shootings in just over 6 weeks.
Progress! Now look at the others, some of which didn't even happen on school grounds.
sebster wrote: Of course that belongs in the list. Accidental weapons discharge is not fething okay, and it could have killed someone. A bullet went flying through a wall and out a window. Of course it belongs on the list.
We'll agree to disagree.
Anyway, I've capped my self imposed daily OT thread posting limit, so I'll leave you here. Enjoy!
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2018/02/16 04:25:06
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
sebster wrote: Of course that belongs in the list. Accidental weapons discharge is not fething okay, and it could have killed someone. A bullet went flying through a wall and out a window. Of course it belongs on the list.
We'll agree to disagree.
Anyway, I've capped my self imposed daily OT thread posting limit, so I'll leave you here. Enjoy!
Indeed. An accidental discharge is definitely not ok. But it is an entirely different thing than somebody showing up with the express purpose of murdering other people.
Just like somebody accidentally killing someone with a car is different than somebody deliberately running someone down with one.
So no. An accidental discharge of a firearm does not belong on any list of Shootings. It belongs on a list with things like car accidents, drowning deaths, and other accidental deaths that might have an aspect of negligence to them. They do not belong with premeditated murder incidents.
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No, we won't, there is no disagreement possible. Because the word school has a meaning. The word shooting has a meaning. Put them together... it's got a meaning. And that meaning means a gun being shot at a place where kids go to school. Which is what happened in 17 of those incidents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed. An accidental discharge is definitely not ok. But it is an entirely different thing than somebody showing up with the express purpose of murdering other people.
The word used was shooting. Which by definition includes accidental discharges, shots fired in to the air, anything like that. This is just a simple matter of basic fething dictionary use.
So no. An accidental discharge of a firearm does not belong on any list of Shootings. It belongs on a list with things like car accidents, drowning deaths, and other accidental deaths that might have an aspect of negligence to them. They do not belong with premeditated murder incidents.
Incidents of accidentally shooting a gun on school grounds belongs on a list of shootings on school grounds. Because it is a shooting, on school grounds.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 06:04:58
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2018/02/16 12:12:49
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
To save quibbling over points I suggest revising the number to "at least 10". Once you remove anything where the school is incidental or accidental that's the number I get, which is more than one a week whilst schools have been open this year.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2018/02/16 12:17:59
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
No, we won't, there is no disagreement possible. Because the word school has a meaning. The word shooting has a meaning. Put them together... it's got a meaning. And that meaning means a gun being shot at a place where kids go to school. Which is what happened in 17 of those incidents.
That however is disingenuous because that is not how people use those words together mean. While logically that is the conclusion one might reach, it is not however how the public uses it. Whereupon School Shooting is used to identify a mass shooting attack on school grounds. This is the common terminology used rather then "School Killings" which would make it more accurate but as a result if one says there's been 18 school shootings people will identify that as "There has been 18 mass shooting incidents upon school grounds"
Given the terminology used and how people enjoy spinning things, it is highly unlikely that the terminology is going to change as a result because people know that people will not identify the usage you just stated.
So yes there is disagreement because those two words together mean a different terminology then what you've stated in the public consciousness. To the point where several posters here were confused by that usage.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/02/16 12:32:34
2018/02/16 12:43:48
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Togusa wrote: Until we get serious about Mental Health in the US, this will continue.
What can you do though? This kid even had treatment and it didn't help him. I guess you could make the treatment mandatory kind of like prison - I don't know how well that would go over though.
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2018/02/16 13:30:25
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
It's very difficult to say it didn't help. One of the major issues around mental health is that doctors and health officials struggle to deal with the fact that one size does not fit all.
I don't know for sure in the US, but in the UK it is a major issue. If I break my leg the same treatment will work for me as it will for you. It will also work for my brother, the homeless person sleeps rough in the car park behind my office, Bill Gates, Samuel L Jackson, Brigitte Bardot and the woman at the local McDonalds.
Mental Health is rather more difficult. What works for my OCD and related issues may not work for another person with OCD, or another mental health problem.
Also, if I break my leg you can tell what it is. Mental health conditions are far more complex to identify. Then you need to add in to it that one of the problems with mental health issues is that people often don't want to be treated, or struggle with treatment, for a variety of reasons. Feeling hopeless, because of the illness, so see it as pointless, disorganisation due to the illness (difficulty sequencing, or having the energy). The side effects of the treatments. The fact that the improvements are not visible.
insaniak wrote: Sometimes, Exterminatus is the only option.
And sometimes, it's just a case of too much scotch combined with too many buttons...
2018/02/16 13:45:21
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
No, we won't, there is no disagreement possible. Because the word school has a meaning. The word shooting has a meaning. Put them together... it's got a meaning. And that meaning means a gun being shot at a place where kids go to school. Which is what happened in 17 of those incidents.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote: Indeed. An accidental discharge is definitely not ok. But it is an entirely different thing than somebody showing up with the express purpose of murdering other people.
The word used was shooting. Which by definition includes accidental discharges, shots fired in to the air, anything like that. This is just a simple matter of basic fething dictionary use.
So no. An accidental discharge of a firearm does not belong on any list of Shootings. It belongs on a list with things like car accidents, drowning deaths, and other accidental deaths that might have an aspect of negligence to them. They do not belong with premeditated murder incidents.
Incidents of accidentally shooting a gun on school grounds belongs on a list of shootings on school grounds. Because it is a shooting, on school grounds.
You're arguments aren't very good here at all. There is ample room for disagreement as evidenced by the fact that multiple people disagree with you. You may not want them to disagree with you but you don't control their ability to disagree with you.
Your semantic argument is insultingly obtuse. There are multiple incidents on that list of 18 "school shootings" with several significant differences from the most current school shooting in Florida. Simply because they all involve the discharge of a firearm does not make them all the same. By your logic we should use the old adage of "apples and oranges" because while apples and oranges are obviously very different they are both fruit and are therefore the same.
If we've already reached this level of discourse then it's probably best for the thread to get locked.
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
2018/02/16 13:51:11
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Well, it's probably best for the thread to have gotten locked from the very beginning since literally no original argument ever happens. The only twist is instead of a semantic argument about what an assault rifle is, we're having a semantic argument about what a school shooting is, as if it matters in any way since by any definition there have been >10 in like, 2 months.
These threads are as tedious as they are predictable
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2018/02/16 14:13:10
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
Ouze wrote: Well, it's probably best for the thread to have gotten locked from the very beginning since literally no original argument ever happens. The only twist is instead of a semantic argument about what an assault rifle is, we're having a semantic argument about what a school shooting is, as if it matters in any way since by any definition there have been >10 in like, 2 months.
These threads are as tedious as they are predictable
It's pointless to post school shooting threads to a discussion forum where discussion of US politics is banned, because no discussion is then possible. All you could post is variations of "that's bad".
2018/02/16 14:14:16
Subject: Re:School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, F
No, we won't, there is no disagreement possible. Because the word school has a meaning.
Nah. We definitely disagreeing.
What most reasonable people, particularly in America, think of when they hear school shooting:
A school shooting is a mass shooting attack on an educational institution, such as a school or university. School shootings have sparked a political debate over gun violence, zero tolerance policies, and gun control.
sebster wrote: The word used was shooting. Which by definition includes accidental discharges, shots fired in to the air, anything like that. This is just a simple matter of basic fething dictionary use.
.
Thats fething basic for sure. ‘Basic’ in the Urban Dictionary sense.
I got carjacked last week. I took my car in for warranty work, they had to use a jack to lift my car up to get under a part of the engine. Thats totally the same as the car jacking that occurred tuesday, where a 69 year old woman was killed inChicago. Or does the combining of those two words make it have different meanings when used in a different context? Was my mechanic a carjacker? Sure, in a very literal sense, but in the context of popular culture? nope.
The true numbers of school shootings are tragically high enough to be shameful, no need to embellish the stats using flawed methodology. I’ve seen you in other threads mock folks who stick to their guns (thats a saying that has a different meaning based on context btw, don’t get literal and think dakka has an active shooter situation) for the sake of “Mah Narrative!” and now, here you are doing the same my dude.
Edit: all bout the thread lock mentioned above.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/16 14:21:51
"Sometimes the only victory possible is to keep your opponent from winning." - The Emperor, from The Outcast Dead.
"Tell your gods we are coming for them, and that their realms will burn as ours did." -Thostos Bladestorm
2018/02/16 14:16:08
Subject: School shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, FL
djones520 wrote: That moment when you're watching a RAW vs a RAI argument in OT.
This really needs some sort of Gif to go with it.... but I am fresh out! :(
However, we can also see why, in this very thread; nothing will change in the near future. Maybe this one was different, but not enough to break through. If Sandy Hook didn't chang ethe game, then nothing will.
Can anyone think of a nightmare scenario that would change the game on this topic?
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