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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.

Surprisingly I don't consider panicking to justify something written because Matt Wards fanfic was accidentally put into a codex reasonable.

Why the hating on haters? Seems a bit extreme to be that mad about people thinking Draigo is silly.

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.

Surprisingly I don't consider panicking to justify something written because Matt Wards fanfic was accidentally put into a codex reasonable.

Why the hating on haters? Seems a bit extreme to be that mad about people thinking Draigo is silly.

The "haters" are people that never read the fluff and rely on Internet hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan threads and articles that don't rely on anything but word of mouth.

There's nothing unusual about the occasional David vs Goliath story, which it was, and one that had even more justification the moment the full story was released.

Then again you constantly defend Space Wolves lore so what do you know?

 Commander Endova wrote:
Despite that, I have no problem with Primarchs coming back, so long as the way they do so makes sense. Guilliman slowly healing in stasis has been a hanging thread since at least 5th. Edition, for example. Some of the "lost" Primarchs coming back is fine, so long as, again, it makes sense for them to return. Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

Personally, in terms of retcons GW could make, "Ferrus Manus mostly survived and returns as an enormous dreadnought" is one I'm willing to accept.

Like, I can't think of anything more Iron Handsy than a Dreadnought Primarch.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

pm713 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
There's a lot of bad fluff to choose from, that's for sure. The Space Wolves in general have always annoyed me but for downright stupidity it's got to be the Grey Knights Codex from - I think - 5th edition. You had an all-powerful Daemon sword that should never fall into the hands of Daemons but could only be carried by the purest of the pure. So they do just that and constantly carry it into battle with Daemons. Or you have the Grey Knight who dies and comes back from the dead along with his cadre of ghostly Terminators but it's in no way anything to do with Chaos. Or the blood rituals involving slaughter of allies for "protection". Or the entire passage about Draigo that mentions casually, in passing, he carved the Grandmaster's name into Mortarion's heart.

The annoying thing is there's a lot of interesting stuff they could have done with all of that (except the last bit - that's just ludicrous). It could have been indicating some gradual corruption of the Chapter, hinting at an insidious, centuries-long plot against the Imperium's last line of defence against Daemonic incursion. Instead it was just overblown rubbish.

You obviously didn't read the story of Draigo vs Mortarion, and the Ghost Terminators don't have anything to do with Chaos in the same manner that the Legion Of The Damned don't have anything to do with Chaos.

Crowe's fluff is garbage though I'll give you that.

Draigo carved a name into Mortarions heart isn't really a story is it? Adding things in years later isn't really better.

The 5th edition Grey Knight codex makes mention of Mortarion being defeated and Draigo doing that. Without anything substantial behind it though it's just an event, and you get some spankers taking their hatred of such a tidbit too far. The story then elaborates specifically on the event, and, surprise, it's reasonable.

It's also like Ultramarine hate where people get mad their special snowflake chapter gets less done.

Surprisingly I don't consider panicking to justify something written because Matt Wards fanfic was accidentally put into a codex reasonable.

Why the hating on haters? Seems a bit extreme to be that mad about people thinking Draigo is silly.

The "haters" are people that never read the fluff and rely on Internet hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan threads and articles that don't rely on anything but word of mouth.

There's nothing unusual about the occasional David vs Goliath story, which it was, and one that had even more justification the moment the full story was released.

Then again you constantly defend Space Wolves lore so what do you know?

Nice.

There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.

pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.

"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.

"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

It's a Demon Primarch. It was completely out of Drago's league before ascending which made it stronger. The idea of him defeating Mortarion is ridiculous and somehow having the time and opportunity to carve his name on the heart was plain dumb. My problem is with the idea being idiotic. It's just bad fanfic that GW was afraid to retcon.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.

"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

It's a Demon Primarch. It was completely out of Drago's league before ascending which made it stronger. The idea of him defeating Mortarion is ridiculous and somehow having the time and opportunity to carve his name on the heart was plain dumb. My problem is with the idea being idiotic. It's just bad fanfic that GW was afraid to retcon.

A Daemon Primarch is still a Daemon. Draigo is a daemon hunter par excellence. I see no reason that with some luck and skill that he could defeat a Daemon Primarch.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
There's David and Goliath and child in a wheelchair beating Goliath. The original story made no sense and the full story was just GW doing a cover up because they can't admit they ever make mistakes.

"Child in wheelchair" would be a Guardsman of some kind beating Mortarion. Not the unanimously selected Supreme Grand Master of the Chapter specifically trained to kill Daemons, with a personal grudge, the tools to kill that Daemon, and expert martial skill.

The story was outlandish, but so's David and Goliath. So's a lot of stories. But they don't fundamentally change anything in the book. The Codex says he writes his master's name on Mortarion's heart. He does just that in the book too. Nothing changes, so if your problem was with the codex, surely the book wouldn't "cover up" anything anyway?

Believe me, I have my issues with some of the stuff Ward wrote. That's not the worst of it.

It's a Demon Primarch. It was completely out of Drago's league before ascending which made it stronger. The idea of him defeating Mortarion is ridiculous and somehow having the time and opportunity to carve his name on the heart was plain dumb. My problem is with the idea being idiotic. It's just bad fanfic that GW was afraid to retcon.

A Daemon Primarch is still a Daemon. Draigo is a daemon hunter par excellence. I see no reason that with some luck and skill that he could defeat a Daemon Primarch.

A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

The "haters" are people that never read the fluff and rely on Internet hyperbole courtesy of 1d4chan threads and articles that don't rely on anything but word of mouth.

There's nothing unusual about the occasional David vs Goliath story, which it was, and one that had even more justification the moment the full story was released.

Then again you constantly defend Space Wolves lore so what do you know?

Or maybe the "haters" simply read the original fluff and thought it was ridiculous. I didn't rely on internet hyperbole, 1d4chan or some random guy in the street. I read the "story" in the codex and considered it stupid. The same goes for most of the other stuff in that codex, which I already elaborated on. The fact these things were later explained doesn't alter how bad they were at the time. In fact, the fluff was so bad it actively made me avoid any further stuff about Grey Knights. Any attempt to justify the bad writing from the codex after the fact is indicative of how bad the writing was in the first place.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

THIS. I'm gonna go through godex DG and Codex GK, and compare Dragio and Morty, and I'm willing to bet that assuming a degree of luck, Dragion defeating Morty is "in the realm of the possiable"

Ok first of all, we're going to assume Dragion get's off the charge.

Dragio has a WS and BS of 2+, a strength of 4. he has 4 toughness, and 5 attacks.



So he's amnaged to get about 6 inches or so away from Morty (Morty's player fethed up, it happens) first of all he shoorts Morty with his storm bolter, and gets really REALLY lucky, dealing 4 damage ((Morty is now BTW down to 15 HP) he then tosses out smite.. dealing another 3 damage Morty is down to 11 HP and wonderig whats up with his dice today. Finally Drago charges into combat, and each hit with his weapon lands, dealing a total of 15 damage. boom Morty's defeated.

Now, am I saying this is likely? no, a Mathhammer player will be happy to calculate the average odds here, and tell us how friggen UNLIKELY this victory here is. but the point is, on table top, assuming a "perfect rolls" scenerio Dragio defeating Morty isn't outside the realm of the possiable.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

 Commander Endova wrote:
Despite that, I have no problem with Primarchs coming back, so long as the way they do so makes sense. Guilliman slowly healing in stasis has been a hanging thread since at least 5th. Edition, for example. Some of the "lost" Primarchs coming back is fine, so long as, again, it makes sense for them to return. Ferrus Manus coming back would be especially peculiar, becuase he's very much known to be dead.

Personally, in terms of retcons GW could make, "Ferrus Manus mostly survived and returns as an enormous dreadnought" is one I'm willing to accept.

Like, I can't think of anything more Iron Handsy than a Dreadnought Primarch.

You know it's just his head that fell off. The corpse is just a couple thousand years old. It's still good! It's still good!

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

pm713 wrote:That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight.

Noob is relative. However, it fundamentally sets up that Draigo is capable of winning fights that vastly unfavour him.

Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

You say "a couple of Knights" - this is arguably the most powerful of all the Grey Knights, a Chapter specifically tasked with killing Daemons. Why would the best Daemon hunter in the Imperium not stand a chance?

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

Draigo is an even stronger combatant than Hyperion. If anyone could, it would be Dragio. Not only that, but Draigo is armed with Mortarion's True Name - something that is probably the closest thing to an "I Win" button against Daemons. How is that not good enough, even for a lucky shot?

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight.

Noob is relative. However, it fundamentally sets up that Draigo is capable of winning fights that vastly unfavour him.

Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

You say "a couple of Knights" - this is arguably the most powerful of all the Grey Knights, a Chapter specifically tasked with killing Daemons. Why would the best Daemon hunter in the Imperium not stand a chance?

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

Draigo is an even stronger combatant than Hyperion. If anyone could, it would be Dragio. Not only that, but Draigo is armed with Mortarion's True Name - something that is probably the closest thing to an "I Win" button against Daemons. How is that not good enough, even for a lucky shot?

point of order Hyperorian didn't kill angron, simply broke his sword, an incrediable feat (that nearly killed him) but the actual killing of Angron was dealt by Brother-captain Aurellian,

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.

except how do you know Dragio "suffered nothing"? "hero being bad ass" story in a codex almost never discuss the price of the heros great victory. If Hyporian's feat was mentioned it would have been written up as "well the man who slew angron was Aurellian, it was acheived only after his blade was broken in combat with Hyperoan, then a noviate of Castellian squad. For this the space wolves named him blade breaker, and he became one of the few grey knights respected in the days that followed"

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight.

Noob is relative. However, it fundamentally sets up that Draigo is capable of winning fights that vastly unfavour him.

Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

You say "a couple of Knights" - this is arguably the most powerful of all the Grey Knights, a Chapter specifically tasked with killing Daemons. Why would the best Daemon hunter in the Imperium not stand a chance?

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

Draigo is an even stronger combatant than Hyperion. If anyone could, it would be Dragio. Not only that, but Draigo is armed with Mortarion's True Name - something that is probably the closest thing to an "I Win" button against Daemons. How is that not good enough, even for a lucky shot?

Because someone who was way out of Draigo's league before getting a huge power boost should kill Draigo without much difficulty.

I think you missed the point. Draigo is stronger than Hyperion but not stronger than Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights.

The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity. But if Draigo was lucky and had help then I'd agree beating Mortarion is fair. But not singlehandedly beating and embarassing Mortarion.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
A Space Marine Praetor was an excellent warrior but they couldn't take a Primarch let alone fight one and carve stuff on their organs.

It's a good thing that Draigo isn't a Space Marine Praetor.
He's the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights.

Which is about equal. There is no reason at all for Draigo to be able to beat Mortarion except "lol look at how awesome he is".

And this is the issue. They're not equal. Martially? Probably, yeah. Spiritually/psychically? Absolutely not.

Every Grey Knight is a psyker. Higher rankers are more powerful. Then, each of these psykers is SPECIFICALLY trained to be adept at killing Daemons. Mortarion, for all his Primarchiness, is a Daemon. Draigo has been set up in his description as a prodigious Grey Knight, killing Greater Daemons as a lowly Brother. If he could do that as a "basic" Grey Knight, think of what he would be like two/three centuries after. He was UNANIMOUSLY chosen as the Supreme Grand Master. He is clearly exceptional amongst an ordinarily exceptional force.

You think "Daemon Primarch" and you assume invincible, without considering that there are forces in the galaxy that are capable of defeating them. With Draigo, that involved plenty of luck. I'm not saying that Draigo would have done this to Mortarion 10 times out of 10, or even that they were evenly matched at 5 times out of 10. What I'm saying is that Draigo had better odds than most people, because of what he is, maybe something like a 1/10 chance of winning, and he actually managed it.

Why is luck never considered?

That's pretty funny. A demon that drives people nearby insane just by existing is getting killed by the noob Knight. Exceptional is fine. Great feats are fine. But Mortarion is taking it too far. I'm not going to say that Demon Primarchs should be invincible but they shouldn't be killed by a couple of Knights.

Angron was done well. He fought a Company of Knights and their allies and was only banished after an abnormally strong psyker knocked himself out breaking his weapon.

a noob knight? Dragio wasn't just some "noob knight" he was a Greyknight Grandmaster. who had considerable experiance under his belt. you bring up Angron, now that fight was a good example of a case of "noob knight beats primarch" where Hyporian a knight with less then a century of service, shattered Angrons blade. yet you never hear people complain about that (proably because it was, to ADB's credit, an amazingly written scene)

yet again, is dragio beating Morty LIKELY? No, but it's not outside the realm of the possiable. Remember when reading these stories guys that in fiction characters can throw a 6 (or a 1) on demand)

I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.

except how do you know Dragio "suffered nothing"? "hero being bad ass" story in a codex almost never discuss the price of the heros great victory. If Hyporian's feat was mentioned it would have been written up as "well the man who slew angron was Aurellian, it was acheived only after his blade was broken in combat with Hyperoan, then a noviate of Castellian squad. For this the space wolves named him blade breaker, and he became one of the few grey knights respected in the days that followed"

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.

Dawn of war and furious abyss, dawn of war because the author clearly knew nothing of 40k lore and furious abyss because it was painfully boring.

pm713 wrote:
I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

You do know that in Mortarion's Heart, Draigo is only able to win because breaks Mortarion's deathblow, speaks his name, and uses the disruption to rip his heart out?

As in, Draigo didn't just waltz in and kill him without any struggle or physical injury. He was beaten until he was able to disrupt Morty.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.

No, people don't complain because ADB is a godly author and because people bandwagon on hating Ward and Draigo. They're not misguided about a lot of it, and there could certainly be more interesting features about Draigo to tell stories about, but defeating Mortarion clearly isn't something that is "ridiculous".

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.

Absence of evidance is not evidance of absence.

A codex is a short blurb that tells you very little, as it is even then we do know losses where had, Mortarian did kill Dragio's predecessor. it's not unreasonable to assume they may have been friends.

pm713 wrote:
Because someone who was way out of Draigo's league before getting a huge power boost should kill Draigo without much difficulty.

But you're ignoring the fact that the "huge power boost" makes him also FAR more vulnerable to Draigo.

If Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar were the one fighting Mortarion? I think they could still do it, but I'd struggle to suspend my disbelief.
But Draigo is a Grey Knight - the literal Anathema to Daemons. Draigo has the skill and power of a high powered Chapter Master, plus his psychic powers, PLUS his anti-Daemon training, PLUS Mortarion's figurative Kryptonite. How does he not have a chance?

I think you missed the point. Draigo is stronger than Hyperion but not stronger than Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights.

Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights are also fighting against Angron's Bloodthirster retinue too, and more importantly, do not have his True Name.

The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity. But if Draigo was lucky and had help then I'd agree beating Mortarion is fair. But not singlehandedly beating and embarassing Mortarion.

IOW "I don't believe their justification because I can't bring myself to admit that it's totally possible, because hating Ward's cool!!"

He doesn't walk all over him. He doesn't just flick his wrist and win. He gets beaten to the dirt, and only wins because he stuns Morty with a psychic blast (something that Draigo is adept at, considering his status in the Chapter), uses his True Name (Mortarion's biggest weakness) and pushes the advantage.

Misrepresenting the argument isn't cool. The facts are that Draigo won, barely, because of his skills as a warrior and anti-Daemon specialist, and his possession of the metaphorical silver bullet.

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.

It's in Mortarion's Heart.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
I was referring to the claim that Draigo killed Greater Demons as a brother. They're pretty different. Hyperion was an incredibly psyker even by the standards of the Grey Knights, he nearly killed himself and broke a sword. Draigo suffered basically nothing from his fight and defeated then marked the heart of his foe.

You do know that in Mortarion's Heart, Draigo is only able to win because breaks Mortarion's deathblow, speaks his name, and uses the disruption to rip his heart out?

As in, Draigo didn't just waltz in and kill him without any struggle or physical injury. He was beaten until he was able to disrupt Morty.

Nobody complains about Hyperion because it wasn't ridiculous.

No, people don't complain because ADB is a godly author and because people bandwagon on hating Ward and Draigo. They're not misguided about a lot of it, and there could certainly be more interesting features about Draigo to tell stories about, but defeating Mortarion clearly isn't something that is "ridiculous".

Did the book mention that Mortarion decided he'd beat the Grey Knights unarmed? Because last I checked Mortarion has some badass armour and punching through that and Nurgly skin and being that strong after being beaten does sound ridiculous.

Maybe so many people hate on Draigo because it's silly. Like the bit about Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle to use their blood as a shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Because someone who was way out of Draigo's league before getting a huge power boost should kill Draigo without much difficulty.

But you're ignoring the fact that the "huge power boost" makes him also FAR more vulnerable to Draigo.

If Calgar, Dante, or Grimnar were the one fighting Mortarion? I think they could still do it, but I'd struggle to suspend my disbelief.
But Draigo is a Grey Knight - the literal Anathema to Daemons. Draigo has the skill and power of a high powered Chapter Master, plus his psychic powers, PLUS his anti-Daemon training, PLUS Mortarion's figurative Kryptonite. How does he not have a chance?

I think you missed the point. Draigo is stronger than Hyperion but not stronger than Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights.

Hyperion and an entire Company of Grey Knights are also fighting against Angron's Bloodthirster retinue too, and more importantly, do not have his True Name.

The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity. But if Draigo was lucky and had help then I'd agree beating Mortarion is fair. But not singlehandedly beating and embarassing Mortarion.

IOW "I don't believe their justification because I can't bring myself to admit that it's totally possible, because hating Ward's cool!!"

He doesn't walk all over him. He doesn't just flick his wrist and win. He gets beaten to the dirt, and only wins because he stuns Morty with a psychic blast (something that Draigo is adept at, considering his status in the Chapter), uses his True Name (Mortarion's biggest weakness) and pushes the advantage.

Misrepresenting the argument isn't cool. The facts are that Draigo won, barely, because of his skills as a warrior and anti-Daemon specialist, and his possession of the metaphorical silver bullet.

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.

It's in Mortarion's Heart.

You seem to think Demon Primarchs are WAY weaker than they are.

But honestly I think at this point you're disagreeing because you have a weird thing about arguing against "Ward hate" so I'm leaving things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

I know because they wrote nothing about it not even a sentence.

Absence of evidance is not evidance of absence.

A codex is a short blurb that tells you very little, as it is even then we do know losses where had, Mortarian did kill Dragio's predecessor. it's not unreasonable to assume they may have been friends.

You could literally add the experience left Draigo broken or something like that.

pm713 wrote:Did the book mention that Mortarion decided he'd beat the Grey Knights unarmed? Because last I checked Mortarion has some badass armour and punching through that and Nurgly skin and being that strong after being beaten does sound ridiculous.

And as clearly shown, all that fancy armour and nurgly skin are irrelevant when dealing with a force weapon, specifically designed to kill warpspawn.

The aura of the blade cuts through the skin, and the actual sword cuts the armour. 40k has clearly shown for YEARS that fancy armour is very little against a power weapon. Hell, Genestealers with biological melee weapons can pierce Terminator plate - the stuff that resists plasma generators. So, if you're complaining about armour not doing much - welcome to 40k.

Mortarion was fully armed, but defeated by something that his weapons could not prevent - his True Name being invoked.

Maybe so many people hate on Draigo because it's silly. Like the bit about Grey Knights killing Sisters of Battle to use their blood as a shield.

I actually did mention this, and said that it was one of the problematic ones. The idea that blood of the pure is protective, and the Grey Knights killing friendlies to do it is completely logical in 40k. The thing that doesn't make sense is that the GK even felt they had to - they're supposed to be incorruptible, so why did they need the Sisters' blood to shield them? My only logical answer is that the corruption of the Bloodtide was more like an offensive attack than a "converts to Chaos" thing. If so, then the Grey Knights might need physical protection, but they're already spiritually protected.

That's just my attempts to make sense of it. It's certainly not a great story. However, I don't see what it has to do with Draigo's, because his isn't silly at all. It's absolutely something that could happen.

You seem to think Demon Primarchs are WAY weaker than they are.

You seem to think Grey Knights are WAY weaker than they are.
You seem to think Daemon Primarchs are WAY stronger than they are.

Neither of those statements are actually very informative, are they? Show me, WHY is Mortarion stronger than I think he is. Why do you say "weaker than they ARE" like it's a fact? If it is a fact, prove that to me. You're just saying "Mortarion's the strongest!!" but when I give my points for WHY Draigo has a chance, you never support why Mortarion is so strong.

I'm not saying Primarchs aren't pants-wettingly powerful. I agree, they are. But that doesn't mean that there aren't hard counters to them. Grey Knight champions with True Names and a grudge are one of them.

But honestly I think at this point you're disagreeing because you have a weird thing about arguing against "Ward hate" so I'm leaving things.

Um, okay? It more seems that you have a chip on your shoulder against Ward (which you suggest in this very post, when you bring up the Bloodtide, and imply that these are both linked), but I am sincere in that I'm not just arguing against "Ward hate".
I'm arguing for something that I feel is quite misrepresented, and which you demonstrate my point brilliantly ("The True Name thing is basically an excuse post atrocity" - ignoring the actual data).

BTW the latest HH novel has another case of invoking a deamon primarchs true name against him (it's how deamon primarch Fulgrim was brought to heel) and yet again, Fulgrim was UTTERLY helpless against that power.

Deamon Primarchs are very powerful, but they also have some pretty major weaknesses as well..

The draigo stuff was all silly. That was a bad era of overblown fluff writing. Carving your name on someone’s heart full stop is just silly.

Andykp wrote:
The draigo stuff was all silly. That was a bad era of overblown fluff writing. Carving your name on someone’s heart full stop is just silly.

And the Rogue Trader stuff wasn't?

40k has always been overblown. Sometimes things stick, sometimes they don't.